Crisis? A Jewish husband believes that Jesus is the Messiah but not G-d.
This is one of those “hot” topics. A Messianic Jewish rabbi friend of mine recently got an email from a distraught woman urgently asking him to intervene on behalf of her husband. I would like some opinions on the matter from my readers. I will paraphrase that email below to protect all parties:
Please pray for us and help us. You see, my Jewish husband (who is from Israel) believes that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel through whom God redeems and saves, but he refuses to believe that Jesus is God too. My husband is adamant that he will not accept this belief. I don’t know what to do – I don’t want him to be lost. I need urgent help and I think my husband will benefit from your counseling. I am really hoping that you would be able to convince him of his error before it’s too late.
Question for my readers: should this woman be concerned about the spiritual fate of her husband? If this Jewish man never changes his mind on the nature of the Messiah, should he be concerned about his final destiny and should we?
Note: do not attempt to prove, disprove or cast doubt on Yeshua’s divinity in your comments. That’s not the point of this post. Rather, focus on whether the belief in Yeshua’s divinity (in addition to his Messiahship) is required or not required for salvation.
I wish I knew. I’ve been talking with a Christian fellow on my own blog who has been trying to convince me of the traditional Trinitarian viewpoint of the church. I’m not convinced. It seems to me that if you go back to Abraham (Gen 15:6, Rom 4:3), then faith in God is what provides the merit for life in the world to come (i.e. “salvation”).
I’m not sure that we have enough information here to have an educated discussion on the topic. What exactly does the husband believe about Yeshua and his relationship with Hashem? How is he handling passages that refer to the Messiah as the Word of God or the Arm of Hashem? If the husband in question is simply dismissing such passages out of disbelief, then yes, I could see reason for concern. If on the other hand he is engaging those passages and simply rejects the simplistic statement “Messiah is God,” then I don’t see that that should invalidate his salvation.
“I’ve been talking with a Christian fellow on my own blog who has been trying to convince me of the traditional Trinitarian viewpoint of the church. I’m not convinced. ”
@James… a related question would be then – does one’s salvation drill down to the exact set of doctrines that must subscribed to or the exact understanding of nature, composition or workings of G-d? I am not convinced of that either.
“If the husband in question is simply dismissing such passages out of disbelief, then yes, I could see reason for concern.”
@Return of Benjamin – my question then is: would it not be enough for that person to simply believe the Yeshua is Messiah sent from G-d through whom G-d saves? That’s a far cry from mere “disbelief”, is it not? Would such a faith save that person, and if it will not, what scriptural support is there?
Doctrine isn’t the same as the Word of God. Theology (Christian or otherwise) is the system or interface by which we try to understand God. Doctrine is the set of teachings that emerges from a theology. All of this is how we interpret the Bible and then communicate to others what we think it says.
None of that means we’re absolutely right.
The Jews had the Torah and the Prophets for thousands of years before the coming of Jesus. Christian theology and doctrine developed in the centuries that followed the life, death, life, and ascension of Christ. Yet traditional Judaism, both in ancient times and now, never said that the Messiah *must* literally be God. I keep asking myself how the Jews could have simply “missed it.”
I’m drawing a distinction between a person who may be simply theologically incorrect and someone who, rather than wrestling with passages that trouble him, simply dismisses whatever is in the Bible that doesn’t match up with his preconception. The former may have certain areas of his walk with Hashem affected, but the Holy One never demanded theological perfection as a condition of salvation. The latter _may_ be revealing an inner condition of unbelief–basically, his trust in Hashem and the Word extends only so far as Hashem agrees with his own preconceptions.
You can apply that criteria to pretty much every theological question. There are Christians who are merely mistaken about the Torah because they’ve been mistaught or misunderstood something in the NT, and then there are those who reject the Torah and ignore every passage that lauds and upholds it as a symptom of their inner lawlessness. I have to know the individuals in question pretty well to judge which is which.
Your question is the equivalent of asking, “If a woman finds a lump in her breast, does she have cancer?” Quite possibly, but it would be irresponsible to say yay or nay based on a single symptom.
“I’m drawing a distinction between a person who may be simply theologically incorrect and someone who, rather than wrestling with passages that trouble him, simply dismisses whatever is in the Bible that doesn’t match up with his preconception.”
@Return of Benjamin … so, are you saying that if a person doesn’t believe that Jesus is G-d but does believe that he’s the Messiah because that’s what his current understanding is (wrong or right) and NOT because he rejects some evidence to the contrary, his assurance in salvation is not affected?
(Note: regarding your cancer example – I am not asking you or anyone here to determine the final state of anyone, but rather to demonstrate that a belief in “Divine Messiah” and not just “Messiah” is required for salvation. Also, assume for the sake of argument that a person is sincere, not simply obstinate, in his beliefs based on his reading of the scriptures and theological background).
I can imagine for a Jew raised on prevailing adumbrations of what “Oneness” entails and having serious misgivings about calling a historical figure “G-d.” When I was a Christian in my youth (as opposed to whatever I am now :P) I also had problems with it and with fear of concentrating love and adoration on an object other than G-d proper. To this day I still struggle with whom to pray to, G-d, or Yeshua. I opt for doing so to G-d in the name of Yeshua and his righteousness.
Perhaps “Son” is a bit confusing when distilling the essence of Messiah’s being. Does G-d have a literal arm? Who knows, but it makes a good illustration. Sonship also illustrates that 2 things are of the same stuff.
These questions make me leery on denecessitating Messiah, but I also know G-d knows the heart and what one would have done had he been given more knowledge. So I pray nevertheless for great compassion. I would be concerned, but I would not let it spoil the marriage either. Perhaps Messiah can reveal himself in peace and unity.
I do not think she needs to be worried. Does her husband have Torah? If so and Yeshua is Torah in the flesh, then in my opinion he has Yeshua too. Especially because he believes Yeshua is Moshiach..B’H
“These questions make me leery on denecessitating Messiah.”
Yes, these question don’t get asked very often, especially in the church world.
If Messiah, whether he is “G-d” or “not G-d”, is G-d’s sole instrument of ultimate redemption and the King of G-d’s Kingdom, how would lacking the “correct” understanding of his exact nature somehow “denecessitate” him?
“I do not think she needs to be worried. Does her husband have Torah? If so and Yeshua is Torah in the flesh, then in my opinion he has Yeshua too. Especially because he believes Yeshua is Moshiach.”
@Adi…
Does not Yeshua’s life, sacrifice, resurrection, kingship and discipleship add something that goes beyond just having Torah? Your statement makes it seem like knowing and placing one’s faith in the person of Yeshua is a nice bonus, but not that big of a deal in of itself. Shouldn’t it matter?
I don’t remember believing Mashiac as Gd being a requirement for salvation, just belief in the promises (in this case that a Messiah would be sent) was a requirement. It does seem, though, that men who look beyond the letter to discover the further meaning will be credited as greater in the kingdom to come. That’s something I notice to be a difference between pharisees and saducees in Talmud.
“I don’t remember believing Mashiac as Gd being a requirement for salvation, just belief in the promises (in this case that a Messiah would be sent) was a requirement. ”
@benicho Would you agree that in most of Christianity the lack of belief in Jesus as G-d but accepting him as Messiah places one in the “unsaved” territory?
“It does seem, though, that men who look beyond the letter to discover the further meaning will be credited as greater in the kingdom to come. ”
Interesting concept. Although Yeshua mentions rewards in association to being obedient, I can see that seeking to discover new things and gain more understanding in a “rewardable” activity as well.
@Gene I’d agree that at least, if not all, Christianity believes if you don’t view Messiah as Gd you aren’t saved. We know this can’t be true if we take the teachings of Paul with validity that Israel was blinded for the sake of the gentile. Gd wouldn’t intentionally blind his own people to damnation for the sake of saving gentiles, not logical. Therefore Jews who believe in a promised Messiah are just as much saved as a gentile who believes in a promised Messiah (Yeshua).
I believe men are rewarded for obedience based on “if you understood you would do”. The more you understand then the less sin you will do. Equally as important however is understanding the need to bring others to realization of the promises for the sake of all men, which is not something one would normally derive from Tanakh.
Hi Gene – Daniel Boyarin’s new book, “The Jewish Gospels.
“Hi Gene – Daniel Boyarin’s new book, “The Jewish Gospels.”
Hi Joshua… thanks, but I am not sure what the book has to do with the post above (the point of the post is specifically not about proving or disproving Yeshua’s divinity). My question is related to the angst expressed in that woman’s email – does her husband who puts his trust in Messiah OF G-d but not the Messiah THE G-d himself still attain salvation?
To be exculpatory, I can also think of all that Jews know about Messiah as a matter of course, and by extension Yeshua, that saved Christians do not know. All the intricate understandings they have at their fingertips versus the simple “Mr. Nice Guy” of Christianity.
G-d in his wisdom surely is aware of the gaping scar left by Supersessionism, burying kings in Cathedrals, nude statues, pogroms, Mariology, and takes that into consideration as well. What does said man believe he is half-rejecting? I gave the same answer to the question “is Anne Frank in Hell?” “How much does Anne Frank know?”
I think the Master was in the deathcamps, comforting his people.
Plus all the Jews know about the “general concept” of Messiah that Gentile Churches overlook.
My younger brother went down this path. He has now denied Yeshua and converted to Orthodox Judaism and lives in an Orthodox community in Israel. He regularly sends me Jews For Judaism material which attempts to persuade listeners to abandon their silly beliefs in Jesus.
Look. The gospels and the epistles and Revelation set Yeshua’s place as divine son of G-d, glorified, sitting on the throne in Heaven, one with the Father, all power given to Him, all creation bows and worships Him. Any student of Torah will know either that’s idolatry, or Yeshua’s God.
Throw that central crux away, and there’s very little to keep you following Yeshua. Throw all that away, and there’s little that can’t be thrown out. From that position, it’s not too far a leap to say Yeshua is optional. And once optional, the option to discard Messiah is on the table. It becomes very attractive to say, “Let’s just be quiet about Yeshua and join with the greater Jewish world.”
As one Messianic blogger wrote last year in his final post, “Judaism is more important to me than Yeshua.”, announcing he no longer believed Yeshua was God or Messiah.
This woman’s husband has abandoned a central crux of the New Testament and may well be on the path to denying the Yeshua altogether. It would not surprise me to see this man reject Yeshua completely within two years.
“G-d in his wisdom surely is aware of the gaping scar left by Supersessionism, burying kings in Cathedrals, nude statues, pogroms, Mariology, and takes that into consideration as well. ”
@Drake….. I’ve heard some Christians and even Jewish Christians claims that all these are mere excuses for Jews who don’t want to accept Jesus as Messiah because “they don’t want to turn from their sins”.
Very good post, Gene!
If our doctrines have to be perfect in order for us to receive His gift of atonement, then I think many of us are in trouble. I know enough about Theology to know that there’s very little that I KNOW other than the fact that G-d loves all of us despite our filthy, sinful natures and He even desires to partner with us.
If she starts freaking out then she might alienate her husband. That would be terrible! I hope she remembers that G-d is in control. All women need to remember that the best thing for their husbands is to have fellowship with G-dly, Yeshua-Believing men. It seems like she probably gets that. But then she says “urgent” and it kind of sounds like she might be in panic-mode. I hope not but it sure seems that way.
If I knew this guy I would treat him like a brother–no matter what he believes! John Lennon’s song might be a cliche but it’s still true: “All you need is love.”
HERE’S A QUESTION FOR YOU GENE: do you think it’d be okay for this guy to drink from whatever “communion” cup they have at his local Messianic synagogue? I would think it’d be perfectly permissible….but I could be wrong. Still I’d rather err on the side of including this man as family than risk alienating him from the Body of Believers.
Sincerely,
Peter
“My younger brother went down this path. He has now denied Yeshua and converted to Orthodox Judaism and lives in an Orthodox community in Israel. ”
Judah, thanks for the input. You do know that there are Messianic Jews, including in Israel, who are life-long followers of Yeshua as Messiah but do believe that he is also G-d, right? Your brother rejected Yeshua PERIOD – but there are many more people who go from Jesus=Messiah=G-d to being atheists or anything else under the sun.
“This woman’s husband has abandoned a central crux of the New Testament and may well be on the path to denying the Yeshua altogether. It would not surprise me to see this man reject Yeshua completely within two years.”
We don’t know how long the man held his beliefs – it may have been a decade or more. The question of the day, however, is the one that you didn’t answer – according to the whatever “salvation formula” you accept is the man saved if he accepted Yeshua as Messiah and repented of his sins? You say he “abandoned a central crux of the New Testament” – but what if he never accepted this as either true or a “central crux” in the first place?
Throw all that away, and there’s little that can’t be thrown out. From that position, it’s not too far a leap to say Yeshua is optional. And once optional, the option to discard Messiah is on the table.
I don’t think observant Jews (Messianic or otherwise) think the Messiah is optional. On the contrary (and please keep in mind, I don’t have a lived Jewish experience to draw on when forming this opinion), the Messiah is absolutely vital in redeeming the world and restoring not only Israel to peace, but establishing peace in all of the world.
I used some quotes from a commentary on Sukkot (I know…wrong time of year) I found at ohr.edu for my “morning meditation” for tomorrow, including this one:
We pray for the day when Israel will be fully restored to its land, rebuild the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, and bring peace between G-d and man, and between all peoples. Amen.
This can only occur in the Messianic age, so the Messiah is anything but optional to a Jew and he certainly isn’t optional to humanity.
All that said, Gene asked if a Jew believing Jesus is the Messiah but not literally God Almighty is still “salvational,” to employ the “Christianese”. In spite of all of my reading on the topic, I can’t say that the Messiah “must” be God in order to be the Messiah. I have a basic working theory about how the Messiah can be divine and yet not be God simultaneously with God (I know…it gets confusing), but that’s just for me.
Frankly, if all of the Jews who ever lived and died and longed to see the coming of the Messiah not only didn’t believe Jesus was the Messiah but didn’t believe (as a matter of religious principle) that Jesus was God, then that vast, vast majority of Jews will burn in hell, Heaven forbid.
I can’t say with absolute certainty who and what the Messiah is or must be in order to be the Messiah, but I don’t believe the first born of Zion would abandon his people, who cry out for the Messiah day and night, just because they don’t subscribe to current Christian doctrine.
My humble opinion.
It’s my experience — with my younger brother, as well as several families who attend a certain congregation in Wisconsin — that throwing Yeshua’s divinity, which is by all certainty a central crux of the New Testament, is a sign of a deeper problem: a love of Judaism more than a love of Yeshua.
I know that’s not kosher to say on a blog like this, but it’s reality.
It’d be like someone in Judaism saying, “What if the Torah isn’t inspired by God?” Any fool would see that person is outside normative Judaism, and is close to leaving the faith.
You might argue such people don’t technically leave the faith, but I’d argue they’re already gone. (Are Reconstructionists really following God? Hardly.) When you throw out a principle and a truth so central to the faith, there’s little holding you to that faith. So it is with Yeshua’s divinity.
I don’t recall any quotes form Yeshua or the apostles about the necesity of believing Yeshua is God in order to be saved, or in order to partake in the Kindgom to come. So my opinion is that it isn’t a requirement. But maybe I’m biased as I try not to put God in a box so to speak. When you try and describe God you most assuredly limit Him in some way. I mean sure we can try and decipher him, but once you think you got it and impose it on others is when trouble starts. In this case I don’t see any clear-cut command to believe Yeshua is God (in whatever way you explain it).
“throwing Yeshua’s divinity, which is by all certainty a central crux of the New Testament, is a sign of a deeper problem: a love of Judaism more than a love of Yeshua.”
@Judah — You would have to state your definition in conjunction with the other man’s definition of Judaism. He may very well believe obedience of the law (which he associates with everything extrabiblical) to be Judaism, and I don’t believe that Yeshua would fault a man for love and obedience to the law over believing that Yeshua is the promised Messiah.
“You might argue such people don’t technically leave the faith, but I’d argue they’re already gone.”
So, Judah, to summarize: say there’s a man who loves G-d and loves Yeshua as Messiah and the King of Israel, believes that G-d through Yeshua’s sacrifice has atoned for his sins, follows Yeshua’s teachings, loves his fellow man, a leader of his community of fellow believers and has held these beliefs for decades, but doesn’t believe that Yeshua is literally G-d – that man, according to you, has abandoned the faith and and is hell bound?
As for a Jew asking “what if the Torah is not inspired?” I don’t think that they are necesarily out of the game so to speak. But maybe the question I hear more often is what if Moses didn’t write the Torah. What if it was compiled for oral traditions during the time between the first diaspora and the general rebuilding of the second Temple (as some scholars propose). I don’t say I personally hold to this view, but if Moses wrote it, or it was compiled by scribes such as Esdras what difference does it make? God can use it just as much. So I don’t think that putting in question the received tradition of God giving the Torah as we know it today to Moses is equal to heretic either.
I appreciate Judah’s courage.
With a name like “Himango,” you know he’s gonna be zealous for Yeshua. He’s the only one on this blog whose last name could literally serve as a battlecry. HIMANGO!!!
Actually, this whole conversation has brought up the fact that I have a Jewish wife who doesn’t believe Jesus is the Messiah at all (let alone God). She’s Jewish and I’m a Christian (albeit a rather unusual Christian). If this Jewish fellow’s wife is all freaked out and he is a disciple of the Master, how am I supposed to feel?
@James
You should feel good that you know the promised Messiah has already come.
” My question is related to the angst expressed in that woman’s email – does her husband who puts his trust in Yeshua who is Messiah of G-d but not the G-d himself still attain salvation?”
Respectfully, do we have any business poskening another’s salvation?…
Nonetheless, I think we can learn the “dalet amos” of salvation, from a kal v’chomer — if it is enough to believe in the works of the man and not the (sayings of the) man, we surly do not need to grasp the Godly essence of the man. But for those who do, ashreichem!
Judah does bring up a good point about the divine inspiration of the Torah. The way we Messianics read John 1 and the distilling of the spiritual Torah into a single life, it’s easy to draw the comparison of denying the Torah’s divine origins.
I meant about my wife, benicho. We have a woman (I’m not sure from Gene’s narrative if she’s Jewish or not) who has a Jewish husband who has become a disciple of Yeshua the Messiah but who does (apparently) not accept the traditional Christian doctrine that Jesus is literally God even as God (the Father) is God. Gene’s question is, can a Jew accept Yeshua as the Messiah just as most Jews actually conceptualize the Messiah and still be “saved?” My query dovetails on that and asks the classic question about the “fate” of all the Jews who have ever lived and died longing for the coming of the Messiah but who didn’t believe Jesus was Messiah and God?
For that matter, did Paul believe Jesus was God? Did James his own brother (that would have been interesting)? Did Peter? If they believed Jesus was Messiah but not the all powerful, all knowing, unique and radical One, Ein Sof, God, what did it mean?
And what does it all mean for millions of Jews all over the world today, including my wife?
“Respectfully, do we have any business poskening another’s salvation?…”
@Nathaniel Davis
We don’t (and that person is anonymous to you) – we are asking a specific question about what one must believe for salvation in general. That concerns us all and those we encounter.
“With a name like “Himango,” you know he’s gonna be zealous for Yeshua. He’s the only one on this blog whose last name could literally serve as a battlecry. HIMANGO!!!”
@Drake…. there must be a movie somewhere with that title… or there should be one!:)
“My query dovetails on that and asks the classic question about the “fate” of all the Jews who have ever lived and died longing for the coming of the Messiah but who didn’t believe Jesus was Messiah and God?”
This is what we were discussing, there is no mention that your salvation comes from believing that Yeshua specifically is Gd, or the Messiah, just that Gd promises salvation to those who believe the promises of Gd, which were a Messiah and resurrection. Jews who believed in a promised Messiah would absolutely be saved for their faith in the promises (Jew before the gentile). As I mentioned above, Jews were blinded for the sake of gentiles, so that gentiles could be brought into the understanding of the promises. Had Israel accepted the Messiah then we gentiles wouldn’t have had a chance. But fortunately for us Gd loves all men.
From reading Paul and the Tanakh I would find it hard to believe Paul did not see Yeshua as a manifestation of Gd. I can’t speak for any of them, however. With that said, what man has ever lived a flawless life? Billions have come and passed, with many left to come and pass and only one claims a perfect life. So if you believe that the Messiah is merely a man that lived a perfect life, then it’s heretical in a way. Not just any man can live a perfect life. Take it for what it’s worth.
Hebrews 1-3 sums up who the Messiah is far better than I can in this little post.
That person is on the path to leaving the faith, if he hasn’t left it already. How you spend life in the world to come is up to the Judge.
The reality here, one that we can’t ignore by asking the question of eternal damnation, is that the person that rejects Messiah’s divinity is likely on a path to denying Yeshua altogether, just as the person who denies the Torah is divinely inspired is probably on a path to leaving Judaism.
Think about this: there are very few serious devotees to Judaism who think the whole Torah is a string of myths with no real historical basis. Those people don’t tend to stay in Judaism for long. Likewise, there are very few serious disciples of Yeshua who think Jesus was merely an agent, something less than the gospels make him out to be. Such people don’t tend to hang around long.
This truth that Yeshua is God made flesh is a central crux of our faith. Reject that central crux, you’re positively outside of normative faith, and probably on a path to leaving the faith altogether.
OK, Judah – your argument makes great sense on an emotional level (although others may disagree). That said, can’t say I would have been convinced if I were that woman’s husband – your argument seems more about “you are on an a sloping path, get back before too late” – similar to that woman’s argument. If you could show from scripture that the belief in Messiah=G-d is indeed a scripturally/apostolically mandated prerequisite to being redeemed by G-d through Messiah, that would be far more helpful. Great examples to include would be people coming to faith in the NT and the Gospel they received.
My argument is an objective, empirical one: I’ve witnessed numerous individuals and families who reject Yeshua’s divinity, then end up leaving the faith altogether, some of them even becoming zealous opponents of the gospel. If you reject a central theme of the New Testament, there’s little stopping you from rejecting the rest of it.
I say that as someone who has spent over 2 decades in the Messianic Jewish and Hebrew Roots movements.
Show me from Scripture that you must believe the Torah was given by God to Moses. Theoretically, there’s no such requirement. Practically, a belief to the contrary undermines the whole message. The persona that the Torah is purely myth is not likely to be a devout adherent of Judaism. So it is with the divinity of Yeshua and the gospel.
Whether a person who rejects Yeshua’s divinity is consigned to eternal judgment is up to God. What we can say with certainty from experience, is the person who rejects Yeshua’s divinity is likely on the path to denying Yeshua altogether. Rejecting a belief so core to the New Testament tends to undermine that person’s faith altogether: If Jesus is just another divine agent, there’s little to stop us from joining Islam, let alone Judaism.
“My argument is an objective, empirical one: I’ve witnessed numerous individuals and families who reject Yeshua’s divinity, then end up leaving the faith altogether, some of them even becoming zealous opponents of the gospel. If you reject a central theme of the New Testament, there’s little stopping you from rejecting the rest of it.”
Judah, this line of argumentation would fall flat for someone who is not a theological basket case (and Hebrew roots tend to attract these sort of people, unfortunately) and whose faith is stable and who has been a believer in Yeshua as Messiah [but not as G-d Himself] for decades. You try to argue from personal experience with people you knew in your religious movement. It’s not a very strong argument and I am hoping that someone – may be you – can come up with something better.
Most people (Christians) who left the faith didn’t start out with believing that Jesus is Messiah but not G-d – that he’s G-d they accepted as a fact of their religion. They just left G-d, period.
“And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” -Genesis 15:6
This is probably the closest thing we’ve got that tells us point blank what we must do to be considered righteous (I have no idea if this means “saved” or not). However, Paul thinks this is important enough to cite in Romans 4:3 so there is linkage between the Torah and the New Testament writings.
I’ve been wracking my brain trying to recall all of the “conversion” stories in the New Testament and what people had to do to be converted. Since this conversation involves a Jewish man, I thought I’d go to the quintessential “Jewish man converts to Christianity” narrative and visit Paul in Acts 9. Here are the relevant pieces (ESV translation):
The fact that Jesus is called “Lord” does not necessarily equate to him being God, since Jesus, as Messiah, would have a special and unique standing that only he possessed, sitting at God’s right hand. There’s nothing in this brief narrative that says one way or the other that Paul or Ananis believed Jesus was literally God.
If you look at the conversion of Cornelius and his household in Acts 10, there’s no mention of anyone having to accept Jesus as God in order for them to receive the Holy Spirit and to be baptized in water.
I’m not saying this proves anything one way or the other, but to try and answer Gene’s question to Judah, I couldn’t find a specific example of anyone becoming a disciple of Jesus the Messiah who was specifically required to believe he was literally God the Almighty Creator of the Universe.
What I understand about the Messiah is that he is a unique, one of a kind, archetypal King and the living embodiment of all Israel. Yet in some manner or fashion his meaning, identity and existence are related to how we understand God being in His Heavenly Court and being the unique expression of the Shekinah in the Tabernacle and later in Solomon’s Temple. God is God yet God put His Name (see Exodus 23:20-21) in an angel so an angelic being could forgive sins even as Jesus forgave sins even as only God can forgive sins.
This sort of thinking gets crazy really fast, but in the end, I pray to God and I worship God as a disciple of my Master Yeshua, Savior and King. I don’t really comprehend the metaphysical mechanics of how it all works, anymore than I understand the human/Divine interaction that makes the Bible possible. That’s why it all goes back to Abraham and Genesis 15. Believe in God and it is credited to you as righteousness.
“And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” -Genesis 15:6
Men who go out of their way to understand the deeper meanings in Tanakh will be granted with more, and granted more righteousness (considered greater in the kingdom). The more you put in, the more you get out.
This is not a complicated, blurry issue. The people here who are blurring the issue are doing so because they wish to justify their own rejection of Yeshua’s divinity.
Here’s the simplest way to look at it: The New Testament describes people, disciples, elders, and angels bowing down and worshiping Yeshua. Either that’s idolatry, or Yeshua really is God.
The talk about whether a person is still saved if he believes Yeshua is Messiah but not God is a red herring intended to take our eyes off the blasphemous nature of saying Yeshua is something short of what the gospels make him out to be.
Nobody here has rejected the divinity of Yeshua.
How we digress.
James,
“If this Jewish fellow’s wife is all freaked out and he is a disciple of the Master, how am I supposed to feel?”
I think that the principle of Passover (Yeshua being THE Lamb) is that the WHOLE house can be saved. I think maybe that’s why they told the jailor “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved —you and your household.”
If I were in your position, I would wrestle with G-d on this one, claiming the Passover Lamb as a promise of salvation for the entire household.
Blessings to you,
Peter
If I were in your position, I would wrestle with G-d on this one, claiming the Passover Lamb as a promise of salvation for the entire household.
Thanks, Peter. Actually I do trust in God to not abandon His people, including the missus.
Gene said:
“Most people (Christians) who left the faith didn’t start out with believing that Jesus is Messiah but not G-d – that he’s G-d they accepted as a fact of their religion.”
I’d suggest that many Christians don’t necessarily START in the faith believing that Jesus is God. That can be a discovery made as they grown in the faith.
I’m not sure when I came to understand about Jesus’ divinity, but I don’t think it was a matter raised when I first heard the gospel and realised I needed Jesus to be able to enter right relationship with God.
“The people here who are blurring the issue are doing so because they wish to justify their own rejection of Yeshua’s divinity.”
Judah, that’s quite presumptuous of you to make such a wild and wrong claim about the participants here. Your grandstanding above makes you appear smugly self assured, as if you would like to present yourself as having figured out the inscrutable nature of G-d and His Messiah while painting others here either as compromising dolts at best or subverting heretics at worst. All to prove to yourself that those who participate in or at least respect Judaism or simply dare to ask questions are walking a fine line between truth and outright apostasy. You couldn’t have been more wrong in your assessment.
“If I knew this guy I would treat him like a brother–no matter what he believes!”
@Peter… some time ago a group of Christian Jewish pastors in Israel wanted all Israeli Messianic congregations to sign a doctrinal statement and to pledge that they would instruct all believers under their influence to shun those Jewish congregations and believers who did not agree on their standard Christian definition of Trinity (specifically). That despicable effort to alienate their fellow Jewish followers of Messiah based on nothing but their man-made definition of G-d’s nature fell through.
“I’m not sure when I came to understand about Jesus’ divinity, but I don’t think it was a matter raised when I first heard the gospel and realised I needed Jesus to be able to enter right relationship with God.”
@ Onesimus … that’s a very insightful perspective. Thank you.
Yeshua is ‘divine’ BUT he is NOT G-D in the flesh.
Also, Gene, do you have a facebook?
This is not a tenable position. First, the New Testament contradicts you when it says, “The Word was God…and the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.”
On a broader scale, if Yeshua is not God, as you say, then everyone that worships him is committing avodah zarah, idolatry. And since the gospels, epistles, and Revelation all record worship of Yeshua, that means the New Testament is a book promoting idolatry. That’s the path to denying Yeshua and leaving the faith, folks, and I’ve seen it not a few times now in my lifetime in this movement. Jesus as Messiah-but-not-God doesn’t work, and leads to apostasy.
Judah, Did you know that the ancient Jewish followers of Yeshua Did not believe that Yeshua was G-d in the flesh?
Andre,
The original followers of Yeshua, his disciples, bowed down and worshiped him. Matthew 14. Either that’s idolatry, or Yeshua is God.
There were later groups like the Ebionites who rejected Messiah’s divinity. They also rejected Paul’s writings, and some of the gospels. Your case is weak, and not a few who have taken that path have ended up as apostates.
“Your case is weak, and not a few who have taken that path have ended up as apostates.”
Judah, you don’t have to constantly, over and over, threaten people with a boogie man of apostasy just to make your point. Over its history, Christendom has excommunicated (or worse) countless followers of Yeshua and branded them as apostates over slightest doctrinal differences. That’s why we have over 43K Christian denominations today, many condemning each other to hell. Some, perhaps many of them, would no doubt consider your Gentiles-must-observe-Mosaic-Torah beliefs as some sort of neo-Galatian heresy and would consider you as a hell-bound grace-forfeited apostate.
@ Judah,
Amen.
@ Andre,
What you just said is considered by most Christians and Messianics to be heresy. Because I care about your soul I would urge you to not say such things and to look at the evidence:
Yeshua claimed to be HaShem:
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I AM!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Question 1: Why did the people want to stone him?
Question 2: Do you think it would be appropriate for a mere man to claim to be HaShem?
If Yeshua was not G-d, then it would be wrong to say such things. However, because He was G-d (and still is) then it was completely appropriate.
There are many, many evidences that Yeshua was/is G-d. Judah also provided you with classic examples. I’m confident that if you weigh this evidence in an unbiased manner and if you pray for the Ruach to guide you to the truth that the truth of Yeshua’s Divinity will be revealed to you.
I would still love you of course if you didn’t believe in Yeshua’s Divinity. My best friend long ago denied Yeshua. We’re still like brothers. Nothing he believes can change our friendship. Would I rejoice though if he re-accepted Yeshua? Absolutely! It would amazing to see him return to the Truth. I pray that this happens for him and you. : )
Sincerely,
Peter
reminds me of the Arianism doctrine debates of the third century a bit.
I just found an interesting quote from the well known Christian Jewish apologist Dr. Michael Brown in his paper RESPONSE TO JOE SHULAM ON THE DEITY OF THE MESSIAH AND RABBINIC TRADITION. I think it’s relevant to the discussion above. The whole article is interesting:
“I agree that we should not be evangelizing our non-Messianic brethren with the message, “Believe in Yeshua as your God,” as opposed to, “God has made Yeshua Lord and Messiah” (see Acts 2:36)”
If any of you are willing take a look at this:
[Removed Islamic propaganda]
*The only part of the video that I disagree with is their assertion that Yeshua did not resurrect from death.
Just in case anyone is wondering, I am NOT a muslim.
Andre,
I’m a little confused by that link. What religion are you?
Andre grabbed an Islamic missionary anti-Christian video from YouTube that argues against Jesus being divine or G-d. He probably didn’t realize the source.
Well, I believe that Yeshua is the Jewish messiah, I’m a Messianic gentile (In a slight Halakhic sort of way).
And just to remind you, I DO believe that Yeshua is Divine BUT he is not ”Hashem in human form” or ”G-d in the Flesh”.I think people misunderstood him when he said before Avraham was ‘I AM’.
For example, The Torah is called the word of G-d Right?
Right!
In the Book of Yochanan says ”the Word is G-d right”
of course!
Well, Has ANY follower of Yeshua claimed ”My bible/Tanakh on Our newly polished tabe is ”G-d in book form” therefore I worship this Book?
I think Not.
“Well, Has ANY follower of Yeshua claimed ”My bible/Tanakh on Our newly polished tabe is ”G-d in book form” therefore I worship this Book?”
Really Andre? C’mon man.
John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Gd, and the Word was Gd. He was in the beginning with Gd. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Gene,
I read the Dr. Brown article. I’ve got a question: If Yeshua told Jews that He was HaShem then He wanted them to know that He was HaShem, correct?
Sincerely,
Peter
Brown’s paper describes the relationship between God and the Messiah using the Ein Sof and the Shekinah. This is more or less my own working theory of how the “deity thing” operates. There was also mention (I think it was a quote of Joe Shulam) regarding the messenger being considered equal to the one who sent the message. This is about as close as I can get to saying “Jesus is God”, but I don’t know how it actually works anymore than I know how the Ein Sof/Shekinah relationship works.
I recall reading Jewish texts that pretty much imbue the Torah with a life of its own and at the same time, say that the Torah (not any given literal scroll) but “the Torah” as a concept and “mystical entity”, is inseparable from the essence of God. If the Word was with God, the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among human beings, then we are debating a great mystery. However, to the degree that Jesus referred to God as a separate entity, prayed to God (as opposed to praying to himself), told others to pray to God in the name of Christ (as opposed to praying to Jesus directly and cutting God the Father out of the deal), and that the Messiah sits at the right hand of the Father in a highly exalted position (as opposed to just sitting on God’s throne directly) there is also some sort of “separation” between these two “beings”.
The Messiah is clearly more than just an ordinary guy, but who and what he was and is can be debated forever and we still wouldn’t have a resolution. That people bowed down to Jesus is no more remarkable than one bowing down to a great King, since Jesus is the ultimate inheritor of the Davidic throne (which isn’t the same as the throne of God), and “God has made him both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36)
Getting back to our Jewish fellow and his worried Christian wife, there’s still nothing that I can find that point blank says if this guy doesn’t directly worship Jesus as God, as opposed to worshiping God the Father, he’s going to burn in hell forever. As a number of people here have said, including Judah, this man’s fate is up to God, not us, to decide.
Case in point. Folks that reject Yeshua’s divinity tend to have little issue throwing out other major truths in the gospels, including the resurrection. From experience, many of these folks will eventually say the New Testament is an unreliable, uninspired document. Leaving the faith is easy from there. (And Gene may be right, such people may be insecure in their beliefs up to this point. But going down the path of fools isn’t wise, either, even for those secure in their faith.)
Hey, Gene is quoting Dr. Brown. Did heaven and earth move? Did hell freeze over? :-)
Dr. Brown’s rebuttal paper is a great document. I highlighted this paper on my blog a year or two ago — it had been released as part of the Borough Park Symposium, a gathering of Messianic Jewish and Jewish Christian leaders to discuss the deity of Yeshua. Several UMJC folks, MJTI leaders, as well as FFOZ’s Boaz Michael, were in attendance. I’d encourage Gene, Andre, and James to speak to any of the attendees about the divinity of Yeshua. Their scholarship and wisdom would be helpful in this matter.
The video, which Gene has now censored, paints the Didache as a pre-gospel, hidden document that proves Jesus was not G-d, and that this document has been suppressed by the Church for theological reasons.
This is a religious conspiracy theory, and is easy to debunk.
First, it’s hardly some secret document suppressed by the church; we’ve been discussing the Didache for years, even on the Messianic blogs. It’s freely available on the internet – go read it yourself and you’ll see it’s not this sensational game-changer this YouTube “documentary” made it out to be.
Second, they claim the Didache predates the gospels. But modern scholarship puts the Didache late first century or early second century, which puts them around the same time as the gospels.
Worse yet, their basic argument is that the Didache refers to Jesus as “Lord”, rather than “Lord God”, and that this proves Jesus was not God. This is an unsophisticated and shallow argument. The gospels themselves don’t refer to Jesus as Lord God. This hardly disproves the divinity of Messiah.
The video also claims that Paul and his mystical visions are solely responsible for corrupting Christianity by making Jesus to be G-d. This is a thoroughly debunked claim that’s held by very few scholars, usually only those who are enemies of the gospel. I’d recommend reading Dr. Brown’s detailed, scholarly response to that argument in his book, The Real Kosher Jesus. I also addressed many of these issues in my post, Is the New Testament Reliable?
Andre,
You wrote: “I DO believe that Yeshua is Divine BUT he is not ”Hashem in human form” or ”G-d in the Flesh”.
What do you mean by “Divine”? Unfortunately, the English language has made this a confusing term because it can either mean “deity” or “like a deity.” I take it you are using the latter meaning?
Sincerely,
Peter
Gene, May I ask why you removed the video?
Honestly, I really meant no harm at all. I was only trying to prove further what the Ancient Jewish followers of Yeshua believed about him. I should have put a disclaimer up with the video.
If the video has offended you or anybody, I apologize.
James said,
Now you’re deceiving yourself.
The Scriptures say that those who bowed down to Jesus worshiped him. When they worshiped, they said things like, “Surely you are the Son of God” (Matthew 14) and “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” and “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power for ever and ever!” (Rev 5)
If you believe that kind of worship and praise is no different than someone bowing in respect, well, you are deceiving yourself, James. And I think any religious Jew would say such worship — ascribing eternal glory and all power and adoration and praise — is idolatry unless it’s worship of G-d.
(By all means, James, take me up on this challenge and ask your Chabad friends if you don’t believe me.)
What I mean by divine is, Yeshua is lower than Hashem But a lot more higher in status than the angels, In Otherwords I believe that Yeshua is ‘Sar-ha’panim’.
Gene quoted from Dr. Brown’s rebuttal paper on Yeshua’s divinity. Here’s my favorite part of that paper, he puts our position so eloquently, so articulately, I don’t know if it can be stated any better:
“If you believe that kind of worship and praise is no different than someone bowing in respect, well, you are deceiving yourself, James. And I think any religious Jew would say such worship — ascribing eternal glory and all power and adoration and praise — is idolatry unless it’s worship of G-d. ”
@Judah:
“Then David said to all the assembly, “Bless the L-rd your G-od.” And all the assembly blessed the L-rd, the G-d of their fathers, and bowed their heads and paid homage* to the L-rd AND to the king,” (ESV).” (1 Chronicles 29:20)
Judah, what’s going on here with King David accepting the same thing that G-d is getting?
* or “shachah”, which can mean worship, bow down, obeisance, reverence, fall down, crouch, prostrate oneself, (Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995.)
For clarity’s sake: what James, and now Gene, are arguing is that the worship given to Yeshua in the gospels, epistles, and Revelation, is no different than people bowing in respect to a king.
This is a Hail Mary pass if I’ve ever seen one. :-)
The text in 1 Chr. 29 says, Then David said to all the people, “Praise the Lord your God.” So they all praised the Lord, the God of their fathers; they bowed down, prostrating themselves before the Lord and the king.”
Notice the text does not say the people worshiped David, or that they called him Son of God, or that they called him the eternal king of heaven and earth, or ascribed to him eternal power, glory, praise forever.
But the text does say those things about Yeshua. The people bowed and worshiped Messiah, and gave him worship only fitting for God himself.
im surprised nobody has brought up Melchizedek.
I see that the commenting is devolving into something else – into arguing over divinity of Yeshua (which I uphold, BTW, and always had). That’s not the point of this post.
@Gene, Do you Believe that Yeshua is G-d/Hashem in the Flesh?
I’m Just asking.
“Gene, Do you Believe that Yeshua is G-d/Hashem in the Flesh?”
Andre, the best and admittedly very imperfect explanation I can muster is that HaShem indwells Messiah in the similar way He indwells the Temple, only much more so, much more powerfully, and much more mystically.
“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19)
I see that the commenting is devolving into something else – into arguing over divinity of Yeshua (which I uphold, BTW, and always had). That’s not the point of this post.
It was going to happen sooner or later for two reasons: 1, Discussion of the “Deity Issue” is irresistible, especially when not all parties are in lock-step agreement. 2, No one knows the absolute answer to your original question, Gene. I don’t think there’s a way to answer it in a Biblical context.
Each of us negotiates his or her own relationship with God continually as we walk our path of faith. We may fellowship with “like-minded believers” but ultimately (at least in Christianity), it’s not who our friends are and what they believe that counts, but what we believe and then do out of our belief that matters.
If God meant to hang us out to dry then we have no hope, but I suspect He’s much more forgiving of us than we are of each other. He knows the mind and heart of the man you have brought into this discussion. If God’s mercy didn’t outweigh His justice, none of us would survive. I pray for His mercy and forgiveness, because I know I make a thousand mistakes everyday.
I pray for the peace of Jerusalem too, and for every Jew who, after all, is considered to have stood at the foot of Sinai to receive the Torah with faith and hope.
Oh, I linked to this blog post in tomorrow’s “morning meditation,” which is a commentary on Emor relative to Rambam’s perspectives of wise men, Torah scholars, and how they speak of and treat others. Just thought you should know.
Peace, out.
@Gene, I agree with your answer. Because the spark or spirit of G-d is in everyone, only that Mashiach Yeshua has it or attained it on a very Much higher level than all of us.
@Andrew… it’s way, way, way more awesome than that:
“The spirit of G-d hovered” (Genesis 1:2) — this is the spirit of Moshiach – Midrash Rabbah)”
Andre,
You wrote: “What I mean by divine is, Yeshua is lower than Hashem But a lot more higher in status than the angels, In Otherwords I believe that Yeshua is ‘Sar-ha’panim’.”
What do you mean by “lower than HaShem”? Lower in what sense?
Sincerely,
Peter
Andre,
How can Yeshua be “lower than HaShem” while claiming to be HaShem? Wouldn’t that mean that Yeshua was pretending to be more than He actually was?
Sincerely,
Peter
Peter, Yeshua NEVER claimed to be Hashem. You must understand who he was speaking to and why he said what he said.
“I pray for the peace of Jerusalem too, and for every Jew who, after all, is considered to have stood at the foot of Sinai to receive the Torah with faith and hope.”
Thank you, James. I look forward to your post. Perhaps someday we can sit down face-to-face and talk about all these things and more. Some things just can’t be expressed properly in a public forum without at least someone judging your every word (and checking everything against their list of what is “correct”) and implying various negative things about you or your relationship with G-d.
Thank you, James. I look forward to your post. Perhaps someday we can sit down face-to-face and talk about all these things and more. Some things just can’t be expressed properly in a public forum without at least someone judging your every word (and checking everything against their list of what is “correct”) and implying various negative things about you or your relationship with G-d.
I hope so, too. About the closest I’m coming to Florida in the foreseeable future is attending the FFOZ Shavuot conference in Wisconsin at the end of the month.
What you said is exactly the reason I meet with a couple of fellows most Thursdays after work. Over coffee, we talk about all those things in the realm of faith that would “get us into trouble” if we said them more publicly. It’s nice to take the muzzle off occasionally. ;-)
Speaking of Florida, I’m moving down there by the end of summer most likely. South Florida that is. Anywhere near your congregation Gene?
Andre,
“Peter, Yeshua NEVER claimed to be Hashem. You must understand who he was speaking to and why he said what he said.”
Okay, Andre, please explain why He said that He was HaShem. Was it in jest? Was He lying for some reason? Seriously, I’d like to hear your theory because I’ve never heard another explanation for why He said what He said (and reading Theology is a little hobby of mine).
Sincerely,
Peter
@James…
I am tentatively planning to attend the UMJC conference in Baltimore that will be held July 19-22, 2012. I and buddies always have the most fun of all attendees (IMHO).
@benicho …
Yes, I am in SoFL. Email me before you’re ready to move.
Tempting, but we’ve already spent a ton on travel this year and it’s only May, so I don’t think I can swing a trip to Baltimore. :-(
James, maybe we’ll meet at Beth Immanuel when you come out this way.
I’ll be at Beth Immanuel in Hudson from the evening of the 24th to the morning of the 28th. Will you be attending any part of the conference, Judah? (maybe you should email me for the rest of this conversation so we don’t consume Gene’s blog comments with non-relevant conversation).
OK, as promised, here’s the link to today’s morning meditation which includes a few words about this blog post and how we “religious people” interact when we disagree.
Another timely and well posited post Gene.
I am convinced that Peter’s first introduction to Messiah (John 1:41), and his own confirmation of that introduction (John 6:69, 11:27) brought him into sonship, and is all that is expected of any Jew to be saved and secured for Kingdom status (Romans 10:13, 11:26).
Little children keep yourselves from idols: Baruch HaShem Adonai,
Brad
@Brad…
Thank you for providing an answer to my exact question directly from scripture.
John 11:27 may actually be a confession of Yeshua’s divinity. It calls Yeshua “the Son of God”, and in John 10, some Pharisees attempted to stone Yeshua over this “Son of God” title, saying, “We are not stoning you for any good work, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
As a side note, it wasn’t Peter in John 11:27, but Lazarus’ sister Martha.
That’s OK. It’s Gene’s question and if Brad’s response satisfies the conditions necessary to comprise an answer in his estimation, then I’ll go for it. In fact, I’m just about done with a blog post that is a commentary for Gene’s question and Brad’s answer.
“John 11:27 may actually be a confession of Yeshua’s divinity. ”
Judah, that’s a good point, it may be.
However, what is of most interest to me is what Yeshua answered to the Pharisees when they wanted to stone him for blasphemy on accusation that he presented himself as G-d in John 10:33: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and the Scripture cannot be broken–what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”
Basically, it almost sounds like he’s saying here – “what’s the big deal guys, anyone who has the word of G-d can be called a “god”???????
Yes, and on the other hand, Yeshua distinguishes his status as “the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world.”
Related: Jewish life & learning: What does ‘you are gods’ mean from Psalm 82?
Gene,
I get the need to wrestle with this subject (Christology) and define it in Jewish terms but let’s also keep in mind our current Messianic tradition on the subject which is the “triune nature” of G-d which includes Yeshua:
“The creeds and doctrinal statements produced by the Messianic movement reflect an orthodox Christian understanding of Jesus and the Godhead. All are uniformly Trinitarian, but expressed with varying degrees of Jewish context. Michael Schiffman writes: ‘Belief in the triune nature of God is not merely held by a group within the Messianic community, but is believed by every Messianic organisation of the community: the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, the Fellowship of Messianic Congregations and the Messianic Alliance of America.’” pg 99 of Mapping Messianic Jewish Theology by Richard Harvey.
Sincerely,
Peter
Peter, will all due respect to “our current Messianic tradition” and Jews for Jesus’ Richard Harvey, and all of the organizations listed in your comment, etc and etc…. I do not hold myself bound by any “Orthodox Christian understanding of Jesus and the Godhead” nor beholden to any Christian creed, be it ancient or modern.
Having said that, I strongly uphold the divinity of Yeshua the Messiah.
Gene,
Don’t put “our current Messianic tradition” in quotes as though I made a dubious statement. You know very well that this is a readily verifiable fact and so it doesn’t matter that a scholar affiliated with Jews for Jesus pointed it out. A Mormon could’ve pointed THAT out. Who else has written an overview of Messianic Theology? I don’t have a lot of options here. I think Rudolph told me he’s got something coming out in 2013. Until then, you’ll have to make do with Richard Harvey or else write a systematic Messianic Theology yourself.
I’m not mad at you, Gene. It’s just a little irritating that you have to attempt to impeach my witness when he’s saying something that you ultimately agree with. Do you see what I mean? I mean, it seems to me that this is one issue that you and I are in relative agreement.
Sincerely,
Peter
My response to Brad and Gene’s transaction earlier this morning is too long to post in a comment so (naturally) I wrote a blog: The Blood of the Prince. It has to address the “deity issue” to a degree, but I’m still trying to steer the conversation back to Gene’s original question and whether or not Brad answered it. If he did, then “end of story,” at least within the context of the question. I realize the larger issue of how the Messiah can also be Divine (and I’ll address the other side of the coin tomorrow) will be with us for the foreseeable future, but we also need to respect the limits of this blog post’s scope and the person who wrote it.
Remember, debate is good, personalizing conflict is not.
“Don’t put “our current Messianic tradition” in quotes as though I made a dubious statement.”
The core of our “Messianic tradition” is barely 30 years old. It’s still firmly suckling at the bosom of the Evangelical tradition from which it came. In that regard, Richard Harvey is correct about it reflecting the “Orthodox Christian understanding of Jesus and the Godhead”.
“I’m not mad at you, Gene. It’s just a little irritating that you have to attempt to impeach my witness when he’s saying something that you ultimately agree with.”
Peter, I did say “with all due respect to … Richard Harvey”. Doesn’t it mean I can get away with saying anything I want? But seriously, pointing out that Richard Harvey is a Jews for Jesus scholar does matter, IMHO.
“but let’s also keep in mind our current Messianic tradition on the subject which is the “triune nature” of G-d which includes Yeshua”
Peter, why did you feel a need to include this here? That’s not the topic of this post. Does it make you uncomfortable that I raise questions that may challenge “Orthodox Christian understanding”, even though I do not question Yeshua’s divinity but only the so called “salvation formula”?
@ James,
On your linked blog you wrote: ” A few people took a stab at actually trying to answer Gene’s question, but no one really knew or could support their opinions from scripture…that is until now:” and then you quoted Brad’s comment.
First, people DID support their opinions from Scripture. So that statement is very strange.
Second, Gene asked an ambiguous COMPOUND question (a series of questions) dealing with the ultimate fate of a recent convert. No one could answer the question dealing with the ultimate fate of the individual because no one CAN answer this question (except G-d alone). Gene, however, deemed that Brad had answered his “specific” question. But if this was true then why didn’t Brad reference the individual in question? I submit to you that Brad is willing to offer a soteriological theory complete with proof texts but is not comfortable with directly addressing the question that related to a specific individual.
You wrote: “There was a lively debate by various folks commenting on this blog but it degenerated (and is still degenerating) into a “Jesus is God” vs “Jesus is Messiah but not God” vs “I don’t know what Jesus is” kind of debate.” And then noted that the issue from Gene’s blog “…the question is: Are Jews saved?”
I submit to you that it is impossible to discuss salvation (i.e. soteriology) without discussing Salvation Himself (i.e. Yeshua/Christology). Therefore, I would disagree with your assessment that the discussion has degenerated. And I’d urge you to not characterize Christological discussions as degenerate. Maybe a gentler word is in order here?
Sincerely,
Peter
Gene,
“But seriously, pointing out that Richard Harvey is a Jews for Jesus scholar does matter, IMHO.”
No, it doesn’t matter. As I said, a Mormon could have pointed out the readily ascertainable fact that Messianics uniformly believe in the doctrine of the Trinity (which makes non-Trinitarians heterodox). So it’s totally irrelevant. You may as well have said “Richard Harvey once attended a feminist rally in college to meet women.” It doesn’t change the truth of what he said. You only impeach someone when they’re saying something with which you disagree.
Sincerely,
Peter
“Second, Gene asked an ambiguous COMPOUND question (a series of questions) ”
In all actuality, Peter, I only asked one simple question – should “she/he/we be concerned?”. That’s it! My question is hardly “ambiguous” (I thought it was very succinct and to the point) and it’s certainly not a “compound one.
“But if this was true then why didn’t Brad reference the individual in question?”
Again, my question really is not about a specific individual, but about the greater point behind my example. Think of it in the same light as Yeshua’s (and rabbinic) parables – it’s not the background of the story and its characters which are the focus, but rather the point one tries to carry across. So, in that regard, Brad got the point.
“You may as well have said “Richard Harvey once attended a feminist rally in college to meet women.””
Peter, and if he later wrote a book in support of feminism, his attending a feminist rally in the past would be quite relevant when considering his impartiality (or lack thereof) on the subject. But Harvey is indeed correct in his statement about “Christian orthodoxy” and it’s relationship with what you termed “current Messianic tradition” (or the majority of it). I already stated that much, so there’s no need to belabor the point.
Gene,
I’m gonna bite because that was incorrect. You wrote:
“[S]hould this woman be concerned about the spiritual fate of her husband? If this Jewish man never changes his mind on the nature of the Messiah, should he be concerned about his final destiny and should we?”
The first question asks, without any qualifications/conditions, whether the woman should be concerned about the spiritual fate of her husband.
The second question adds a new dimension with the clause “If this Jewish man never changes his mind on the nature of the Messiah” and is compounded by your use of the conjunctive “and”. This conjunctive then creates an interpretational issue: is the question “should WE be concerned about HIS final destiny” or is the question two-fold “should he be concerned about his final destiny and should we be concerned about our own final destinies.” Given the restrictive opening clause “If this Jewish man”, it seemed to me that you were asking the former question “should WE be concerned about HIS final destiny.”
These are separate and nuanced questions. Nothing simple here.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter, will all due respect (here I go again), my friend… you’re over analyzing this. My grandmother (may her memory be a blessing) used to do that when listening to jokes. She would dissect the behavior of characters and pick apart various other backdrop details in the joke, instead of laughing at the main point.
Gene,
“Peter, and if he later wrote a book in support of feminism, his attending a feminist rally in the past would be quite relevant when considering his impartiality (or lack thereof) on the subject.”
Yes, because that would be relevant (and he’d also get chutzpah points). In our case, however, his being affiliated with Jews for Jesus is unrelated to his statement of fact that Messianic organizations uniformly accept the doctrine of the Trinity. Zero relevance.
Sincerely,
Peter
I can not for the life of me figure out why is it necessary for salvation to know that the Messiah is divine. I have study the Tanach and the Good News, One in Hebrew, and the Good News in Aramaic, I just do not see how Yeshua could be or is the God of Israel. We recite the Shema two times a day, HaShem echad. I have met the Messiah, and I have seen the throne of HaShem, believe me, they are different. But even in the textual level, translations is another thing, they make things happen, but originals, you shouldn’t tell the text what is saying, you should be faithful in translation, and I have seen many textual dishonesty. Did the thief beside Yeshua knew that Yeshua was HaShem? I do not think so, and I do not believe it either. Shalom.
Bethhaderech,
“Did the thief beside Yeshua knew that Yeshua was HaShem? I do not think so…”
Why do you think the thief didn’t understand this? Do you have evidence or is this something you’re merely reading into the text because YOU personally don’t believe Yeshua is G-d?
Sincerely,
Peter
43:10 Ye [are] My edim (witnesses), saith YHWH (יהוה), and My Eved whom I have bachar (elect): that ye may know and believe me, and understand that ANI HU: before Me there was no Elohim (אלהים) formed, neither shall there be after Me. (YeshaYahu 37:16, chp 45:5; chp 43:10,11)
43:11 Anokiy YHWH (יהוה);
and beside me
[there is] no moshia.
This is all I wanted to send you. I send you greetings in the love of our Saviour,
Yeshua our Messiah, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Who is coming soon.
22:12 And, Hinnei, I come quickly; and My reward [is] with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
22:13 I am Alef and Taf, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
22:14 Blessed [are] those who wash their kartans (robes), that they may have right to the Etz ha Chayim, and may enter in through the she’arim (gates) into the city.
Sorry to see that the half of what I wrote is taken away, like stealing, not nice
Or is there no freedom to write? HaShem has seen everything, that is most important.
Be blessed.
“Sorry to see that the half of what I wrote is taken away, like stealing, not nice”
Dear Maria… only links to various 3rd party websites and the embedded videos were removed, your own words and quotes were left intact. Please use your own thoughts or quotes to make your point.
Be blessed too.
My quickest reply to this wife would be: Don’t worry about it, your husband will have a chance to bow his knee to the Messiah. There is nothing concrete in scripture which states that we must choose the Divine Messiah prior to our death. The LORD is merciful, fair, and just, and He will not allow your husband to “be lost” just because he does not assent to a faith in the Divinity of Jesus prior to death.
My more complicated answer is that many people don’t actually believe in the Divinity of the Messiah simply because they have a preconcieved notion of the idea, but when they die and see the Divine Messiah, they shall say in their heart that it was Him all along whom they knew to be LORD.
Basically, just because someone says they believe that Jesus was not Divine doesn’t mean they are “lost”, it just means that the veil has not been removed from their eyes yet.
If you’re scared that the Lord is going to condem your loved one’s then your living in fear of a lord who may not be the right lord.
Trust me. The Lord is merciful, fair, and just and He will give every man, woman, and child the opportunity to worship the one true God and He alone.
Peace be with you all.
truthceeker, thank you, that was a very good answer.
“Trust me. The Lord is merciful, fair, and just and He will give every man, woman, and child the opportunity to worship the one true God and He alone.”
Do you mean this in a “universalist” way?
truthceeker,
Where are you getting this idea that everyone has a second chance to bow their knee? That seems to conflict with the following:
Ezekiel 3:17-19
“Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: When I say to the wicked, “You shall surely die,” and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.”
And then Yeshua says:
John 8:24
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins”
I get that every knee must bow. But I don’t see how that implies that everyone bowing their knee will be saved. I think there’s a pretty big difference between bowing your knee and having atonement for your sins.
Peter, you don’t seem to allow for possibly of G-d giving second chances just because someone has passed on. How can you be so sure that G-d is so rigid in executing justice and vengeance to the letter of the Law and not more merciful, at least on case by case basis? Has not G-d shown Himself to be just the opposite, i.e. not throwing the book at us when we clearly deserve it?
In a literal sense, God gives all of us second chances, and thirds, and fourths, and millions, and billions. Otherwise, we’d all be dead. Not sure how it works after you die, though.
Gene,
I’m open to the idea. But I just don’t see the knee-bowing thing as evidence of a second chance. And also the evidence is weighted in favor of death being the cut-off point. I mean, what do you make of John 8:24? Still, I’m open to another possibility if there’s evidence for another possibility. I just don’t consider statements like “trust me, I know G-d is a merciful G-d and He’s not gonna send anyone to hell unless the individual really wants to go to hell” to be evidence. On the contrary, He has to draw the line somewhere. And the Bible indicates that these matters are time-sensitive. Life is but a vapor, etc.
Shabbat Shalom
Peter
Luke 2: 11. For today is born to you in the city of Dawid
the Savior who is Master YHWH,
the Mashiyach.
One of the most powerful statements about YHWH and His Mashiyach in the entire Aramaic NT. YHWH is the real Mashiyach, who chose the vessel of Y’shua the man. However, within Y’shua the man is an occurrence of the One Divine Nature of YHWH, also known as the Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit). This is the literal meaning of the fullness of YHWH dwelling inside Mashiyach, and in accordance with Tanakh prophecy (Isaiah 53:1, Zechariah 12:10). The divine and human natures exist separately yet side-by-side within Y’shua.
1 Corinthians 12: 3. I therefore explain to you, that there is no man that speaks by the Spirit of Elohim, who says that Y’shua is accursed: neither can a man say that Y’shua is Master YHWH, except by the Ruach haKodesh.
Luke 2: 11. For today is born to you in the city of Dawid
the Savior who is Master YHWH,
the Mashiyach.
43:11 Anokiy YHWH (יהוה);
and beside me
[there is] no moshia.
Be blessed, shalom.
I suppose I’m opening up a can of worms, but:
Vincent’s Word Studies:
The Lord (ὁ κύριος)
From κῦρος, supreme power, authority. Hence κύριος, one having authority, lord, owner, ruler. In classical Greek, used of the gods, and in inscriptions applied to different gods, as Hermes, Zeus, etc.; also of the head of the family, who is lord (κύριος) of the wife and children (1 Samuel 1:8, Sept.); while to the slaves he is δεσπότης. In the Pauline writings, however, the master of slaves is called both δεσπότης (1 Timothy 6:1, 1 Timothy 6:2; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:18), and κύριος (Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1).
In the Septuagint it is used by Sarah of her husband (Genesis 18:12; compare I Pet. en 3:6). Joseph is called lord of the country (Genesis 42:33), and is addressed by his brethren as my lord (42:10). It is applied to God (Genesis 18:27; Exodus 4:10). In the New Testament it is a name for God (Matthew 1:20, Matthew 1:22, Matthew 1:24; Matthew 2:15; Acts 11:16; Acts 12:11, Acts 12:17; Revelation 1:8). As applied to Christ, it does not express his divine nature and power. These are indicated by some accompanying word or phrase, as my God (John 20:28); of all (Acts 10:36); to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:11); of glory (1 Corinthians 2:8); so that, as a title of Christ, Lord is used in the sense of Master or Ruler, or in address, Sir (Matthew 22:43, Matthew 22:45; Luke 2:11; Luke 6:46; John 13:13, John 13:14;1 Corinthians 8:6). Ὁ κύριος, the Lord, is used of Christ by Matthew only once (Matthew 21:3) until after the resurrection (Matthew 28:6). In the other gospels and in the Acts it occurs far oftener. Nevertheless, in the progress of Christian thought in the New Testament, the meaning develops toward a specific designation of the divine Saviour, as may be seen in the phrases Jesus, Christ our Lord, Our Lord Jesus Christ, Our Lord, Jesus our Lord.
Maria, thank you, but how do your comments answer the very specific question posed in my post?
Only YHWH can judge the world. Yeshua the name means Yah – God. Shua comes from Tishua that means savior. Only on the cross they saw His name and there eyes opened to see the Messiah. Iy Yeshua has died for our sins as the perfect lamb- the only one with no sin, it means He took all humankind sin on His and died for you and me. The Word become flesh- Torag da vara ( Not sure if 100% right) means He the Messiah is one and only Elohim ( Plural) So Him in us, is the hope of glory. He will come to judge the world. He said this temple will be broken down in 3 days and be rebuilt. The temple was burn down 70AC. Jeshua was the new temple and so are we. In Ps 22 and Isaiah 53 we see the savior, the one who took all our sins on Him. The one who was brush for our iniquity and wounded for our transgression. Isaiah 61- He is the anointed one. Jude 25 says he is our redeemer and savior
You have all failed to answer the question as Yeshua would gave. You may not like the scriptural answer
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down)
Yeshua came to free people from sin. Being free from sin us being saved. As for who inherits eternal live, let Yeshua decide himself as YVH gave this to him and no one else.
“You have all failed…. You may not like the scriptural answer”
John… you should have checked your arrogance at the door. Your answer has little to do with the actual question I posed in this post. Read the actual post first and then give your two cents.
“I just found an interesting quote from the well known Christian Jewish apologist Dr. Michael Brown in his paper RESPONSE TO JOE SHULAM ON THE DEITY OF THE MESSIAH AND RABBINIC TRADITION. I think it’s relevant to the discussion above. The whole article is interesting:
“I agree that we should not be evangelizing our non-Messianic brethren with the message, “Believe in Yeshua as your God,” as opposed to, “God has made Yeshua Lord and Messiah” (see Acts 2:36)””
I read an interesting passage in a biography by K. K. Hansen on Joseph Rabinowitz (1837-1899):
“He also makes statements about the Trinity. Again he contrasts the different backgrounds of Jews and Gentiles. The Gentiles, who were accustomed to polytheism, needed to have it stressed to them that the three persons in the Holy Scriptures are one. But the Jews find it exceedingly difficult to use the number three, although they well know from Scripture that the One God is three persons or personalities (Partsufim: faces, strictly speaking). And he continues: “The believing Gentiles call the three persons in the Godhead: ‘Father, Son, and Holy Ghost’; we name them: ‘One God, and His Word and His Holy Spirit’, which is the same. Why should the Christian Church burden Israel with doctrines, which were taught them by their fathers to keep them from false conceptions of the Godhead?” He emphasizes that the Jewish apostles did not lay this burden upon the Jews. “And we do not find anywhere in Holy Scripture, that the belief in ‘Three persons” is to form a necessary part of our confession.”” (Joseph Rabinowitz and the Messianic Movement, p.107, 108)
b”h
Regarding the original question, I think 1 Corinthians 7:14 has application:
For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
This relates to the minimalist view that the spouse does not believe in Yeshua at all. So, for someone who does believe in Yeshua as Messiah, I would say the state of holiness is bolstered by that faith. We also read that children are considered holy because of their parent’s faith, and in the worst case, only one parent’s faith. Certainly there is individual accountability before G-d, and people who reject G-d will be rejected by him. But the fact that a spouse abides with their believing partner reflects some measure of acceptance, and evidently from this verse, is enough in G-d’s eyes to be considered holy to him.
For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
So Paul leaves open the possibility that spouses can be the positive influence to lead to salvation, and this is the case for a “non-believer.”
Also, expanding a bit on Shmuel’s comment above, Peter’s proclamation on Shavu’ot in Acts 2:34-36 was:
For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that G-d has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Yeshua whom you crucified.”
So this was the fundamental message that the Jewish audience on Shavu’ot was obligated to relate to with no explicit elucidation of Yeshua’s nature (though there are some fascinating hints in Ps 110).
Moreover, Yeshua said there are levels of punishments based on knowledge of the master’s will, Luke 12:47-48:
And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.
While this relates to deeds, I would say that after all the “winds of doctrine” that have blown around the last two millennia I would not want to judge a person cold on his or her confession of faith about Messiah. Some people have been blessed with time and resources and the intellectual capacity to weigh the last two millennia and the question of Messiah. Others have not. Those who lack resources will be judged according to what they have. Still it is crucial to strive to enter the “narrow gate” and that means honestly trying to find answers to confusing questions, and not just sitting back unconcerned.
It’s a difficult subject on which you can make many pros and cons. Par example: Yeshua said: And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up. This passage is from the passage in Chukkat. The people where bitten after rebellious attitude. HASHEM ordered Mosheh to put a brazen serpent on a pole and everyone looking upon it would be healed. Many believers see in this the Yeshua being the suffering servant hung on the pole bringing healing to all who look upon this His work. In haEretz the Torah was read according the triennial cycle. In the third year of it the passage with Bemidbar (Numbers) 20:14-22:1 was read, including the history Yeshua referred to. Every shabbath was also read a Psalm, according the cycle. The Psalm read together with this passage was Mizmor 110, that includes the passage on the Mashiach exalted at the Right hand of HASHEM! Another eplanation of the lifted serpent!
At the same time, there is a different side on the story with the lifted serpent on the pole. It became known under the name Nechushtan and some people burned incense for it. So Mellech Hezekiah broke it to pieces (2 Kings 18:4). Does this also say something?
“At the same time, there is a different side on the story with the lifted serpent on the pole. It became known under the name Nechushtan and some people burned incense for it. So Mellech Hezekiah broke it to pieces (2 Kings 18:4). Does this also say something?”
Shmuel… very interesting. So, after looking up at the serpent for healing as G-d instructed, some people decided to redirect their worship to the brazen serpent instead of keeping it on G-d who was the real power behind the serpent…
Gene, I say no more ;-)