Are Gentile believers obligated to the Mosaic Covenant and how do they benefit from it?
Many Gentile believers who associate themselves with the Hebrew Roots movement believe that by placing their faith in Israel’s Messiah they too become members of the Mosaic Covenant and must therefore obligate themselves to all the same requirements of Torah as the Jews. Most people familiar with the New Testament know that the apostles went to great pains to make it very clear that this was not the case (Acts 15). However, does this fact actually mean that Gentiles have absolutely nothing to do with the Mosaic Covenant or that there’s nothing in it for them? Not at all! Gentiles who place their faith in Messiah become spiritual beneficiaries of all of Israel’s covenants, including the Mosaic Covenant.
(Important note: some confuse the term “Covenant” with “Torah” but the two are not the same. One is a legal agreement between parties while the other is a set of laws and instructions from G-d (i.e. the Five Books of Moses). The confusion comes from the way the books of the Christian Bible came to be called - Old Testament and New Testament. The word “testament” means a “covenant”. A book, however, is not a covenant. Hence the confusion.)
How do Gentiles benefit from the Mosaic Covenant? In at least four ways:
- They benefit from G-d providing His instructions for moral and righteous conduct toward fellow man and G-d.
- They benefit from G-d’s promise to Israel to send redemption through Messiah.
- They benefit from being witnesses to G-d’s faithfulness, holiness, discipline and other lessons of faith.
- They benefit from G-d promising to give Israel the Land, since in it the Messiah was born, in it G-d demonstrated both His abounding mercy and His judgement for disobedience, and to this Land Messiah will return once again to redeem the whole world.
However, while I believe that Gentiles benefit greatly from the Mosaic Covenant while not being obligated to its terms, I also believe that Gentiles specifically become members of G-d’s family and co-heirs with Israel only through their initiation into the New Covenant via Israel’s second Moses, Yeshua the Messiah:
Remember that you were at that time separate from Messiah, excluded from the Commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without G-d in the world. But now in Yeshua the Messiah you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Messiah. (Ephesians 2:12-13)
The Covenant through Moses was the marriage of Israel to her Husband, G-d Himself. As a legally binding contract between the two parties, it came with some very strong strings attached, especially when it came to unfaithfulness on the part of Israel. Should Israel fail to abide by the rules of the holy ketubah (marriage contract), if it failed to remain a loving, faithful wife, G-d had repeatedly warned that this would result in many dreadful calamities, such as had never befallen on any other nation. G-d’s standards for Israel are very high, although not as high as His love for her. And while G-d loves all his children, all the peoples of the world, and doesn’t play favorites, He expects far more from Israel than He does from the nations since Jews are to be the nation of priests.
“You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins.” (Amos 3:2)
As everyone knows, priests are held to a stricter standards of holiness. This is why G-d disciplines Israel with such severe judgments that it’s only through miracle after miracle of G-d that we are still around as a people. In other words, we are usually the first to get whatever is coming!
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile (Romans 2:9)
Above I briefly outlined some of the reasons why the Covenant G-d made with Israel through Moses was never meant for the nations. G-d in his mercy has chosen to spare the Gentiles the severe discipline that would result from them being disobedient to G-d’s Torah, as the terms of the contract between HaShem and Israel stipulate. Do you want to be judged more severely, with all the judgements reserved for Israel’s disobedience, for all your actions and inactions?
Which brings me to this point: some of my Gentile brothers and sisters who wish to claim the Mosaic Covenant for themselves do not know what they are asking. I believe that they do not realize the price tag that comes with the Covenant G-d has made with Israel. Do they really want to be driven from one place or another, persecuted, murdered and derided - and not just they, but their children as well, no matter if they are religious or not? This is partly the reason why rabbis historically would try to dissuade a potential convert by telling him or her that “the people of Israel are wretched, driven about, exiled, and in constant suffering.” When a non-Jew decides to place himself under the Mosaic Covenant, when he chooses to convert himself and his family to Judaism and officially joins the Jewish people, he and all his progeny automatically become a target of great evil for generations to come. When various Christian groups imagine themselves under the Mosaic Covenant, do they also ponder the harsh judgments that come with failing to fulfill its terms or are these reserved only for the Jewish people?
I’ll leave you something to ponder about: only 60 years ago, less than an average lifetime of a person, my people have lost approximately a third all Jews who lived at the time. One out every three Jews who lived in the world 60 years ago died at the hands of bloodthirsty murderers in the span of only 4 years, and 67% of all European Jews. One out of every three. Being a magnet for evil is the price of being truly and irrevocably bound to the Mosaic Covenant and this is not to be taken lightly. Besides, the New Covenant comes with its own price (but also with its own, even better promises and blessings).
P.S. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem, Israel and the Jewish people everywhere. Great, dark, ominous clouds have gathered over our nation right now, unlike any we have witnessed in more than half a century. Perilous times are ahead.
This is a much needed counterbalance to the “storm” of blog posts and comments that are occuring in another corner of the blogosphere.Thank you.
What I find disturbing about some of your critics is that they seem to have missed the fact that the month of Elul has begun. Isn’t this a time when observant Jews all over the world anticipate the High Holidays and turn their hearts toward God in humility and repentance? Isn’t this a time when, if we are attached to the God of Israel in any fashion, we all might want to consider our own spiritual states rather than those of our neighbors? There’s a world of mitzvot we are all obligated to…justice, mercy, charity, compassion. Aren’t these vital fruits of the spirit?
I’ve been trying to communicate those thoughts recently in my own little part of cyberspace. I wonder if anyone out there is listening?
Thank you Gene for this excellent article. Very good, timely. Us usual reading your Blog I find nothing to add, just because very right to the point.
James, I think Gene pointed different Issues, not that they have nothing to do with Elul (they do). And also you are not alone in attempting to communicate. Few listening, even fewer doing, many going on with their own, will it be church, two house or hebrew roots or else.
What more from us needed, is to ponder about what Gene saying in his last two paragraphs.
“…One out of every three…”
“…Great, dark, ominous clouds have gathered over our nation right now, unlike any we have witnessed in more than half a century. Perilous times are ahead….”
How many times I have being ridiculed and ostracized for saying this very words.
I have deadly feeling in my kishkas, its coming.
My grate grand mother killed on the street of Cherson (Ukraine) in 1942, when she was 91 yo. straggling to scramble something to eat during occupation winter. Is anything changed?
Yes, because today even darker, unlike any we have witnessed. No wonder no one listening.
Do you want to be judged more severely, with all the judgements reserved for Israel’s disobedience, for all your actions and inactions?
Is it wrong to say yes?
“Is it wrong to say yes?”
@benicho – not, it’s not, provided one counted the cost.
I just read Rabbi Tzvi Freeman’s “message” in my email inbox just now. I think it fits:
“The nations cannot understand why the Jewish people should have a land. “If it is G‑d and scriptures and heaven that you are all about,” they claim, “then why do you want a piece of earth? Is G‑d in a place? Will you find G‑d in settling land, in governing a country, in defending it? Make up your mind: Is it heaven you want, or earth?”
Those words, perhaps, are never said. They are quiet words, engraved within the human psyche. And they are the bias behind all their contentions with us: We don’t belong here, on earth, where they belong, playing by their rules. Because G‑d is in the heavens, and the earth belongs to humankind.
But this is the mission of the Jewish people: For all to see that the same G‑d in heaven is here within the earth, within all the endeavors of humankind. For there is nothing else but Him.
Beginning with that specific, well-defined, very special piece of earth to which our destiny is tied.”
After examination would it be sufficient to say “I would have done all these things but I didn’t want to be accountable for certain things”? I have a hard time believing that it would suffice for me.
OK, benicho, you are thinking “doing mitzva A and B”. Forget about it for a second. Think covenant. Would you be willing to subject yourself and your family for generations to the things Israel is subjected to? How about tomorrow?
Gene,
Re: “I believe that they do not realize the price tag that comes with the Covenant G-d has made with Israel. Do they really want to be driven from one place or another, persecuted, murdered and derided – and not just they, but their children as well, no matter if they are religious or not?”
Are not the Christians also persecuted? In Bangladesh, the mullahs take Christian children from their homes, send them to madrases (Islamic schools) and force them to convert to Islam. In Nigeria, gunmen go into churches and open fire on the worshippers. In Uganda, muslim radicals pour acid on Christians, acid strong enough to melt car metal, as the muslims chant “Allah akbar!”
Persecution does not prove covenantal particularity; it reveals a universality that includes non-Messianic Jews, Messianic Jews, and all gentile Believers in Yeshua. Which is why we must all come together now as family and unite around Israel to defend her.
Peter, I suggest that you look at things historically, at the persecution patterns. Today Jews live relatively unharassed. However, only 60 years ago 1 out of 3 was murdered in 4 years, as I wrote above. Are you suggesting to me that in the last two thousand years Jews and Christians experience anywhere near the same level of persecution? Do you really want me to walk down the history lane? Was your great-great-grandfather, 2 great-grandfathers, great-uncle, and great-aunt and many other relatives brutally murdered like mine were 80 and 60 years ago?
Besides, did you read my post where I wrote “the New Covenant comes with its own price”? The whole point of this post is that Christians are not obligated to the Mosaic Covenant.
Doing mitzva A-Z is the easy part, comparatively. I would subject myself to it today and for generations to come. Would it be better that I not have a family so as to keep them from inheriting a covenant? Again, I don’t believe that excuse would suffice.
Gene,
That comment was my attempt at a call for Jewish-Christian solidarity with Israel. Take it for what you will.
“That comment was my attempt at a call for Jewish-Christian solidarity with Israel. Take it for what you will.”
Peter, well, I fully support “Jewish-Christian solidarity with Israel.”
“Would it be better that I not have a family so as to keep them from inheriting a covenant? Again, I don’t believe that excuse would suffice.”
benicho, for you it would be a choice, one that G-d may not expressly desire for you. G-d did not command Jews to go and obligate all nations to the terms of the Mosaic Covenant (again, by saying “covenant” I do not mean “Torah”). Gentiles can do things specified in the terms of the covenant out of love (like marking the Sabbath, etc.), and still not be legally obligated to it. The terms on the New Covenant are much better.
How would one know whether or not Gd wanted them to take on the Mosaic covenant?
To be clear, I do not believe gentiles are obligated to keep the Mosaic covenant. I’m also not referring to those who merely observe or remember Moadim out of love. And naturally the New Covenant will be greater, as we won’t even be having this discussion.
Thanks for sharing what you believe on this topic, although I am still confused on how you come to some of your conclusions… I won’t go in to debate you on all of these points.
Few points below stuck out:
“Above I briefly outlined some of the reasons why the Covenant G-d made with Israel through Moses was never meant for the nations.”
Agreed, but this also applies to the New Covenant, which is also made with Israel, we do not have a verse that says, the New Covenant is made with the Houes of Israel, House of Judah, and the nations. In fact, the whole reference of the New Covenant is in direct relation to the Mosaic Covenant made with Israel.
Though these covenants are not made with gentiles, God expects and hopes to bring gentiles into these covenants, we see this with the mixed multitude, we see this with the nations putting their faith in the God Israel today. We see this in the examples in Isaiah 56. We see this in Ephesians 2, being coheirs.
Persecution:
Your argument for suffering can be summed up in, do you really want to follow Yeshua?
2 Tim 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
Should we dissuade people who want to follow the Messiah, because persecution is involved?
Being in covenant with God involves responsibilities, and thus if gentiles are in covenant with God, they are then responsible for the terms of the covenant.
“Agreed, but this also applies to the New Covenant, which is also made with Israel, we do not have a verse that says, the New Covenant is made with the Houes of Israel, House of Judah, and the nations. In fact, the whole reference of the New Covenant is in direct relation to the Mosaic Covenant made with Israel.”
Zion, this is true. However, it’s only with the coming of the New Covenant facilitated through Yeshua the Messiah that Gentiles were invited to partake in the spiritual blessings of Israel. “For G-d so loved the world that he has sent his only Son”. Had Gentiles been also required to become Jews in order to benefit from this New Covenant (as some in Acts tried to force on them), one could then say that they are obligated to the Mosaic Covenant. The apostles and the Holy Spirit made it clear that this was not to be the case.
“Though these covenants are not made with gentiles, God expects and hopes to bring gentiles into these covenants, we see this with the mixed multitude, we see this with the nations putting their faith in the God Israel today. We see this in the examples in Isaiah 56. We see this in Ephesians 2, being coheirs.”
Gentiles are not obligated to the terms of the Mosaic Covenant. This is not only clear from reading the New Testament, it’s the basic tenet of Judaism. However, as I noted, they are spiritual beneficiaries of all covenants of Israel through, as you noted, “putting their faith in the God Israel”. So, you are right – Gentiles are indeed heirs.
“Persecution: Your argument for suffering can be summed up in, do you really want to follow Yeshua?”
No, that’s not it at all. The persecution of Israel is two fold – 1) for being Israel and 2) for not living up to the terms of the covenant by failing to fully observe Torah (and not just the “rituals”). Are Christians being persecuted for not living up to the terms of the New Covenant? Can you claim that because Christians did not observe the Mosaic Covenant that they suffered all the judgments that Israel suffered? Do you now see the difference (you don’t have to answer that)?
“Zion, this is true. However, it’s only with the coming of the New Covenant facilitated through Yeshua the Messiah that Gentiles were invited to partake in the spiritual blessings of Israel. “For G-d so loved the world that he has sent his only Son”. Had Gentiles been also required to become Jews in order to benefit from this New Covenant (as some in Acts tried to force on them), one could then say that they are obligated to the Mosaic Covenant. The apostles and the Holy Spirit made it clear that this was not to be the case.”
I have to disagree, the Mosaic Covenant had the invitation for those of the nations to also join, and they did, standing at Mount Sinai along with Israel, and of course the purpose of Israel to be a light to the nations, for the very purpose of bringing the nations into covenant relationship with God.
“Gentiles are not obligated to the terms of the Mosaic Covenant. This is not only clear from reading the New Testament, it’s the basic tenet of Judaism. However, as I noted, they are spiritual beneficiaries of all covenants of Israel through, as you noted, “putting their faith in the God Israel”. So, you are right – Gentiles are indeed heirs.”
You need to be more clear, saying gentiles are not obligated to the Mosaic Covenant can mean multiple things. A gentile who is not in covenant with God is not responsible for the terms of the covenant, that is simply common sense, but a gentile who is in covenant with God is responsible, so to say a gentile is never obligated is simply false, we need to be clear which gentile we are speaking of.
“No, that’s not it at all. The persecution of Israel is two fold – 1) for being Israel and 2) for not living up to the terms of the covenant by failing to fully observe Torah (and not just the “rituals”). Are Christians being persecuted for not living up to the terms of the New Covenant? Can you claim that because Christians did not observe the Mosaic Covenant that they suffered all the judgments that Israel suffered? Do you now see the difference?”
It cannot simply be compared to Christians, as Christians are not an entity nor a corporate group like Israel. Are Christians individually being persecuted and sometimes on a community level, of course. Are they suffering judgments because of their sins, of course, look at how many Christians are sick and dying, surely some of this is due to their disobedience. Some persecution and suffering is due to our righteousness, but some is due to our sin, and this goes for everyone, the only difference is it is not always corporate, some times it is only individual.
@ Heblearner “Mosaic Covenant had the invitation for those of the nations to also join, and they did, standing at Mount Sinai along with Israel”
It’s a stretch to believe that, considering that Torah is quite explicit on the terms foreigners, like the ones that were present in the mixed multitude, could enter the congregation of Israel:
“Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country. The THIRD generation of children born to them MAY enter the assembly of the L-rd.”
“You need to be more clear, saying gentiles are not obligated to the Mosaic Covenant can mean multiple things. ”
I believe I was very clear in my post.
“It cannot simply be compared to Christians, as Christians are not an entity nor a corporate group like Israel. ”
That’s partly my point too.
I hate having to signup for accounts to post on these sites, then it apply’s a blog name to a user name, Heblearner = Zion if you were confused.
“It’s a stretch to believe that, considering that Torah is quite explicit on the terms foreigners, like the ones that were present in the mixed multitude, could enter the congregation of Israel:
“Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country. The THIRD generation of children born to them MAY enter the assembly of the L-rd.””
In all honestly, I do not understand your point here, can you clarify?
I agree the Torah makes a clear distinction concerning the soujourners, but I am not sure how this relates to the point I made, please expound.
“In all honestly, I do not understand your point here, can you clarify?”
My point is that it’s a presumption to assume that the mixed multitude was automatically integrated into the children of Israel or was somehow automatically obligated to the Mosaic Covenant by their mere presence. It’s not what the Torah teaches in Deuteronomy 23:8-9, which specifies conditions for aliens’ entry into the congregation of Israel. They lived as aliens among the Israelites, hence the many Torah laws given to Israel not to mistreat the aliens and to allow the third generation of children born to them to join the congregation of Israel (those who want to join and become obligated).
“Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country. The THIRD generation of children born to them MAY enter the assembly of the L-rd.”
Just my 2 cents worth.
The reason that the “Ger” example from the Torah can’t applied to Messianic Gentiles (i.e. Christians) today is that it’s comparing apples and oranges, IMHO.
As Gene points out, the Gentiles who came out of Egypt with Israel and became Gerim by conforming to the identical lifestyle of the Israelites, were never intended to retain their Gentile distinction. Except for having no tribal affiliation (which is why Hashem made it very clear that the Gerim were not to be abused and were to be treated like the “native-born”), after three generations, they were totally assimilated into the larger body of Israel. All of their descendants in fact, became Israelites who married into tribes and their origins ultimately vanished across the long span of history.
Today, we Gentiles who have come to faith in the Jewish Messiah retain our non-Jewish identities by design. If somehow, we think we’re “obligated” to the same Torah mitzvot as the Jewish people, it’s not because of anything that happened to the Gerim in ancient times.
Gene,
Thank you for creating this post in response to my invitation for clarification. I hope that you will keep this discussion going because it’s about to get very interesting–I feel this in my heart. : )
http://orthodoxmessianic.blogspot.com/2012/08/hakahal-chukah-achat-community-of-one.html
“I hope that you will keep this discussion going because it’s about to get very interesting–I feel this in my heart.”
I urge everyone to keep your comments as short as possible, in the name of clarity and sanity.
“My point is that it’s a presumption to assume that the mixed multitude was automatically integrated into the children of Israel or was somehow automatically obligated to the Mosaic Covenant by their mere presence. It’s not what the Torah teaches in Deuteronomy 23:8-9, which specifies conditions for aliens’ entry into the congregation of Israel. They lived as aliens among the Israelites, hence the many Torah laws give to Israel not to mistreat the aliens and to allow the third generation of children born to them to join the congregation of Israel (those who want to join and become obligated).”
Thanks for clarifying Gene, I understand your point better now, but I think it misses the point. I am not assuming whether or not the mixed multitude all joined, I am only bringing up the point, that they were allowed to come, and in Exodus, we are shown they were allowed to participate and join covenant. Because we are told about how the Passover is to be kept, and the sojourner who joined covenant and taken upon circumcision can participate, but the sojourner who does not, cannot participate. The point was, the invite and option was clearly on the table.
“James: The reason that the “Ger” example from the Torah can’t applied to Messianic Gentiles (i.e. Christians) today is that it’s comparing apples and oranges, IMHO.
As Gene points out, the Gentiles who came out of Egypt with Israel and became Gerim by conforming to the identical lifestyle of the Israelites, were never intended to retain their Gentile distinction. ”
I have to disagree, the sojourner distinction is maintained all through the Torah, one specific reason for this, is because the sojourner cannot purchase land, the distinction must remain. Coming from someone who is all about maintaining distinctions, I am surprised you would say that. :P I have to uphold the gentile distinction banner as a One Law advocate. :P
I have to disagree, the sojourner distinction is maintained all through the Torah, one specific reason for this, is because the sojourner cannot purchase land, the distinction must remain.
This is confusing to me. Then today, we can find the specific descendants of the sojourners from the time of Moses because they could never completely assimilate into Israel due to their lack of ability to buy land? Couldn’t they have married Israelites who were native-born and had tribal affiliation? Wouldn’t their grandchildren, great-grandchildren and so on, carry that tribal affiliation forward into history until the original sojourner origins of their ancestors faded away?
Let me be clear, I’m not saying that non-Jews cannot voluntarily take on-board the mitzvot. Certainly, there have been non-Jews across time who have been attracted to Judaism and the Torah and have kept Shabbos or determined that they would keep kosher but without ever converting for one reason or the other. As a Christian husband married to a (non-Messianic) Jewish wife, I have some idea how a Gentile might find himself in a situation to be keeping at least a few of the commandments normally associated with Jewish people.
I’m just saying that voluntarily accepting a commandment upon oneself does not make you (or me) a Jew.
James,
“This is confusing to me. Then today, we can find the specific descendants of the sojourners from the time of Moses because they could never completely assimilate into Israel due to their lack of ability to buy land? Couldn’t they have married Israelites who were native-born and had tribal affiliation? Wouldn’t their grandchildren, great-grandchildren and so on, carry that tribal affiliation forward into history until the original sojourner origins of their ancestors faded away?”
You are shooting yourself in the leg here. Where does it say that these Sojourners went through a ritual of GYUR? And if it happened just as you said, did not God wanted to show us how gentiles join the community?
This is confusing to me. Then today, we can find the specific descendants of the sojourners from the time of Moses because they could never completely assimilate into Israel due to their lack of ability to buy land? Couldn’t they have married Israelites who were native-born and had tribal affiliation? Wouldn’t their grandchildren, great-grandchildren and so on, carry that tribal affiliation forward into history until the original sojourner origins of their ancestors faded away?
You are confused, because you are ignoring the text, the scripture is clear, the sojourner cannot own land, which simply means: the sojourner did not, does not and will not become a “Jew”, instead the sojourner will be a sojourner, just as the Torah maintains this distinction. To say that the sojourner turns into a Jew, is a form of supersessionism and blurs the Torah’s distinction. Now I know why you guys throw this claim around all the time. ;D
What does a sojourner’s grand children have to do with the sojourner himself, and what the Torah says about the sojourner? Your argument does not address my points. Can we find specific descendants of any tribes today, most people who claim Jewish identity only goes back so far, and when I say far, it is not very far away, but I believe them, but there is no way to trace anything by evidence alone, except the few families who have history carried down and the traditions that have been kept and those who were persecuted for being Jewish (generic proof). So, whether or not the grand children lost their sojourner status is not the issue here, that is another subject and debatable, the issue here is, the sojourner did not lose his status. Thus invalidating the whole “gentile can become a Jew” paradigm.
I’m just saying that voluntarily accepting a commandment upon oneself does not make you (or me) a Jew.
Exactly, but don’t stop there, neither does becoming a sojourner make one a Jew.
Let the games begin! :D
Can we find specific descendants of any tribes today, most people who claim Jewish identity only goes back so far, and when I say far, it is not very far away, but I believe them, but there is no way to trace anything by evidence alone, except the few families who have history carried down and the traditions that have been kept and those who were persecuted for being Jewish (generic proof).
Zion, or whoever you are, you’re statements seem to be coming really close to the old argument that today’s Jews aren’t really descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I hope I’m just misunderstanding your point.
Anyway, if I thought this discussion would actually be an open exchange of ideas, I’d probably put in the time to explain what I mean either here or on my blog, where I’d have more “room” to flesh out my points. But unfortunately, this set of transactions has become yet another “endless feedback loop,” and I’ve spent more hours than I can count fruitlessly participating in them.
I want to leave you with something to think about, though. As far as I can understand your argument, your “rights” to Torah observance are based primarily or completely on the description and role of the sojourner in the day of Moses. That means the Jewish Messiah isn’t required or changes nothing for you in your faith, and yet he’s the center of mine. My personal understanding is that Jesus (Yeshua, if you will) changed *everything* for those of us who are not descendants of Jacob; we who represent all of the nations of the world. He allowed us to enter into a covenant relationship with God without having to convert to Judaism and leave your Gentile identities behind. That’s just huge. It makes his words in Matthew 28:18-20 revolutionary and Jesus becomes the greatest gift mankind has ever known. But if the gerim in the Mosaic era is our template for faith and the Sinai covenant is transferable on that basis, then Yeshua means nothing.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you and if so, I regret it, because I really do want to be fair. I try to have these conversations, not based on the traditional blogosphere platform of “I’m right and you’re wrong and I’m gonna prove it,” but on actually trying to learn, exchange ideas and, even if we don’t agree, still experiencing education and fellowship. Dan and I frequently don’t agree and yet I like him a great deal. If I ever make it to Las Vegas, I’d love to spend some time with him batting ideas back and forth.
In my first comment above, I mentioned the month of Elul, but apparently that point was lost as well. There is no better time to foster fellowship or attempt to repair damaged relationships, but that sort of effort doesn’t survive the adversarial nature of these sort of conversations. More’s the pity.
Bye.
James, you rock :-). Even when you’re annoyed you’re gracious and giving.
Bless you for what you said, it’s beautiful…
Can anyone define then what laws a gentile Yashua believer should follow? Acts 15? what about the big 10? where do I draw the line as far as what’s for the Jews and what’s for everyone?
Zion, or whoever you are, you’re statements seem to be coming really close to the old argument that today’s Jews aren’t really descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I hope I’m just misunderstanding your point.
You have completely misunderstood then, because I believe Jews are truly descendants and that Israel the land today is truly Israel filled with true Jews, they live on!, I stated I believe they are without even strong and hard evidence that traces every person to every tribe to their respective places… My point was in reference to your question for where the sojourners are today.
Anyway, if I thought this discussion would actually be an open exchange of ideas, I’d probably put in the time to explain what I mean either here or on my blog, where I’d have more “room” to flesh out my points. But unfortunately, this set of transactions has become yet another “endless feedback loop,” and I’ve spent more hours than I can count fruitlessly participating in them.
Debating is not for everyone, and even if you enjoy debating, do what I do, and take a break, I don’t come on these blogs much, I haven’t visited in years in fact. I just came back around to jump in for more discussion, I will probably be gone for some time again, I like to take breaks from these discussions at times, as I see them become dry and repetitive.
I want to leave you with something to think about, though. As far as I can understand your argument, your “rights” to Torah observance are based primarily or completely on the description and role of the sojourner in the day of Moses. That means the Jewish Messiah isn’t required or changes nothing for you in your faith, and yet he’s the center of mine.
This confuses me, do you think that being a sojourner is in conflict with faith in the Messiah? It is as if you believe salvation for a sojourner is different than for us today. The Messiah is the salvation for all before and after His coming. Please elaborate, how Torah observance invalidates the Messiah or being part of Israel invalidates the Messiah?
My personal understanding is that Jesus (Yeshua, if you will) changed *everything* for those of us who are not descendants of Jacob; we who represent all of the nations of the world. He allowed us to enter into a covenant relationship with God without having to convert to Judaism and leave your Gentile identities behind.
Everything? Gentiles have been entering into covenant with God since the beginning, this is not new. What exactly did you convert to? When Abraham came into a covenant relationship did he convert to Judaism? It seems you are confusing Judaism with the bible, do you think that Christianity is the New Testament? I hope I am misunderstanding you.
That’s just huge. It makes his words in Matthew 28:18-20 revolutionary and Jesus becomes the greatest gift mankind has ever known.
Jesus is the gift of salvation to all of mankind, promised from the very beginning, before Israel ever existed, and obviously before Judaism ever existed.
But if the gerim in the Mosaic era is our template for faith and the Sinai covenant is transferable on that basis, then Yeshua means nothing.
This is a twisted view in my opinion… you are creating a conflict in the scriptures that do not and have never existed. It is as if you think gentiles were screwed before Yeshua came, this is not the case.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you and if so, I regret it, because I really do want to be fair. I try to have these conversations, not based on the traditional blogosphere platform of “I’m right and you’re wrong and I’m gonna prove it,” but on actually trying to learn, exchange ideas and, even if we don’t agree, still experiencing education and fellowship. Dan and I frequently don’t agree and yet I like him a great deal. If I ever make it to Las Vegas, I’d love to spend some time with him batting ideas back and forth.
I think I might be misunderstanding you even more. And I am completely fine with disagreement, I generally enjoy debating.
In my first comment above, I mentioned the month of Elul, but apparently that point was lost as well. There is no better time to foster fellowship or attempt to repair damaged relationships, but that sort of effort doesn’t survive the adversarial nature of these sort of conversations. More’s the pity.
Bye.
Our views on the body of Messiah are in opposite directions, and that creates a rift. Point is, I don’t have an answer for that, but we can all focus on being more kind to each other. I hope I was not too strong in my response, but I will be honest, I am really confused by your view on this.
“Can anyone define then what laws a gentile Yashua believer should follow? Acts 15? what about the big 10? where do I draw the line as far as what’s for the Jews and what’s for everyone?”
RushnOnAir…The point of this post was that the Mosaic Covenant has not been placed upon Gentiles. Torah, however, is for everyone because it provides instructions for moral treatment of others. Apostle Paul said it best when he wrote to Gentile believers under his care:
“For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14)
Acts 15 simply deals with idolatry (and animals sacrificed to idols) that was prevalent in the Roman world at the time. This is not something that most believers in the Western world today would ever encounter. Sexual perversion was also prevalent in those days, even in association with religious cults (temple prostitution). The Acts 15 prohibition from eating blood goes way back to Noah (Genesis 9:4), and not a Jewish-specific commandment but a universal one. Unlike what some Hebrew Roots advocate retort, Acts 15 is not a license to sin because it doesn’t list every commandment listed in the Torah. It dealt with specific issues at the time and it dealt with the specific question of whether Gentiles were obligated to Mosaic Covenant.
Gentiles are not obligated to the sign and holiness commandments given to Israel (circumcision, wearing tefillin, tzitzit, eating kosher food, purity laws, observing Shabbat, observing the various Jewish holy days and all details concerning them). However, just about everything in the Torah is about ethics and morals, and would apply to Gentiles as equally as it would to Jews. The various assorted Hebrew Roots groups are hung up on the sign / holiness commandments given specifically to Israel. They are missing the forest for the trees wanting to be something they are not – Israel.
About the Ten Commandments. They provide the foundation for most other commandments. About the Shabbat: I believe that even though according to Judaism righteous Gentiles are exempt from observing it and the apostles never compelled Gentile believers to observe it, Christians should honor the Shabbat in some way. I am not implying that they should abstain from work or other necessary activities, unless they choose to (G-d doesn’t require it of them). Honoring the Shabbat for Christians may be as simple as changing their attitude toward it, instead of promoting the idea that G-d abolished it for the Jewish people along with the Law or replaced it with Sunday.
@Lrw79: Thank you. You’re very gracious.
@Gene: I’m not going to bang my brains out against a wall of granite by “debating” the status of the ancient Gerim relative to modern Christians. While debate for the purpose of education and sharing has value (and none of us agree 100% with each other on all things), talking just to talk can go on and on and on and produce pretty much zip. It’s like going into a boxing match just because you like hitting people (no, not literally “you” Gene). In the end, there’s a winner and a loser, but it doesn’t really mean anything. People just get hurt.
I have pondered and prayed and I don’t think I can let this thing go quite yet, though. If the Messiah isn’t central to a Gentile being reconciled with God, then what do we have and why did the Messiah come, live, die, and live? What’s the point of his existence if all Gentiles had to do was “act like Jews?” My “morning meditation” for tomorrow will be something like “Does Jesus Matter?” or “Why Does Jesus Matter?” I think for a lot of folks out there the focus has been on “Torah compliance” or “Torah obedience” for so long that Jesus/Yeshua has fallen between the cracks. He needs to be lifted back up where we can see him so we can realize that it’s the Messiah King that belongs on the throne of Israel and, to borrow from “Christianese,” on the throne of our lives.
I’ll post a link when it’s up and running. Sorry if I’ve been difficult or off topic.
Thanks.
” My personal understanding is that Jesus (Yeshua, if you will) changed *everything* for those of us who are not descendants of Jacob; we who represent all of the nations of the world. He allowed us to enter into a covenant relationship with God without having to convert to Judaism and leave your Gentile identities behind. ”
True, James, but where does it say that you don’t have to keep all the Torah? Does it anywhere say that because James got a huge reward he can do Torah or not do Torah at his will?
“But if the gerim in the Mosaic era is our template for faith and the Sinai covenant is transferable on that basis, then Yeshua means nothing.”
Thank you for finally agreeing with the OL position…You are a scholar and a Gentleman…
“‘True, James, but where does it say that you don’t have to keep all the Torah?”
Dan, how much Torah do you yourself keep? All of it? I am asking because I don’t keep anywhere near all of Torah and I am a Jew, but you seem to insist that everyone should keep ALL of it. Which, naturally, makes me concerned I may not be doing enough. Do you actually make an effort to keep all of the commandments, or do you sort of not worry too much about the details and just go with the flow?
Gene,
I don’t know how to call your post, red herring or a straw man, or maybe both? Get real…..
@Dan: My response is too involved (over 2600 words) to post here. Tomorrow’s “meditation” will have my thoughts (just pour yourself a tall cup of coffee, get comfortable, and start reading). ;-)
I think I understand those believers, both Jew and Gentile, who say they love Torah and are “observant” because they have all (or mostly all) come to MJ via the portal of Christianity which has been degrading the Torah and Mosaic Covenant (for both Jew and Gentile) for 1800-1900 years or so, give or take.
But it isn’t so cut and dry.
The Church kept “tithing” and arguments against homosexuality must come from the “OT” to make any rational sense. While the big 10 are still in effect, the reality is that only 9 are taught because the only way to keep Sabbath without being “legalistic” is to do it on a day that isn’t actually the Sabbath.
Someone who begins to see these inconsistencies and wants to connect the biblical dots simply cannot do it within the paradigm of Christian thought.
If one went to their Pastor and asked: “Why is it wrong to worship God on the Sabbath?” or even if we don’t have to be kosher, why do we eat swine on Easter, since Jesus is the “lamb of God” and swine is forbidden and God says in His Word it’s disgusting to Him? Or, if Jesus said he didn’t come to annul the law, when did all these changes happen? When did God stop caring about what people ate and Sabbath etc.? If one asked why does the Church declare that the WHOLE bible is God’s Word and authoritative to the Christian, why do they then excise 80% of it, give or take…
The answer I got when I asked these questions was, in no particular order:
Worshiping on Sabbath is legalistic, Jesus freed us from the law, we only keep those commandments that are reiterated in the NT, Mark 7 and the vision Peter had in Acts of the sheet proves that God disagreed with the Kosher laws, Paul wasn’t kosher after he converted to Christianity….
These answers make no logical sense and need extra biblical doctrine and dogma inserted, so the Christian goes to MJ to try to make sense of this craziness and the 2 most obvious failings of the Church are the issues of Sabbath and diet which were never “done away with” by either God, Jesus, or Paul.
I think the MGentile is first of all trying to sort out kinks regarding these things. Since Christianity doesn’t teach these things are still appropriate for Jews, just not Gentiles, instead they claim to REPLACE Israel as Gods people and yet not have to keep any of the requirements and denigrate Jews who do.
Naturally confusion ensues…
Is it possible that, if God knows what He’s doing with the Jews via Rabbinic Judaism despite its areas of error, that He also knows what He’s doing with His non-Jewish people despite its (Christianity’s) errors? Could it be that in this time of no Temple and Priesthood that we are actually in a period of Grace, to figure all the errors we’ve inherited (from both sides) out?
If so, can we not be somewhat gracious to each other as we all find out way?
“Gene,I don’t know how to call your post, red herring or a straw man, or maybe both? Get real…..”
Dan, I thought you wouldn’t have an answer to my question.
Which reminds me of Paul’s words to Gentile believers in Galatians 6:13:
James,
Maybe you should call it “Evening meditation.” No one can read such long posts in the morning……
Gene, how can I distinguish between sign/holiness commandments and ethics/morals commandments?
Dan, they’re not time limited. If you can’t get to my blog until evening, no worries. Besides, my latest one is just a hair over 900 words. Really short compared to the 2600 word behemoth I’ll publish tomorrow. ;-)
OK, as promised: Does Jesus Matter?
RushnOnAir,
Precisely.
“Gene, how can I distinguish between sign/holiness commandments and ethics/morals commandments?”
RushnOnAir, as I noted in my previous answer, the sign/holiness commandments for Israel are: circumcision, wearing tefillin, tzitzit, eating kosher food, purity laws (laws which require one to immerse in water or otherwise ritually purify him/herself), observing Shabbat, observing the various Jewish holy days and all the details concerning them, as well as details concerning the Temple Worship and giving tithes to the Temple/priests/Levites.
Ethics/morals commandments are just about everything else in the Torah, i.e. ordinances where we are told how to treat or not treat our fellow human beings (i.e. the weightier / more important matters of the Law that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 23:23).
Romans 2:15 says that for those who do not have the written Torah (Gentiles), “the requirements of the Torah are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.” This cannot possibly refer to the sign commandments given to Israel, but rather to the basic morality imbedded into everyone’s conscience.
Gene,
Then why did Paul tell the gentiles to put into practice everything they observed in his lifestyle? Why did the gentile Colossians observe kashrut and Shabbat (Col. 2) and suffer persecution for it at the hands of the ascetic non-Believing Colossians? Why does Paul tell the gentiles to observe the same commandments as the circumcised Believers in 1 Cor 7:19?
Here’s the major flaw in your analysis Gene: members of the covenant belonged to the “hakahal chukah achat” or “community of one law” (Numbers 15:15). That meant that gentiles were obligated in the way as the native and that gentiles had rights in the same way as the native. Show me where the proselyte was not commanded to observe Shabbat, kashrut, taharat hamishpochah? You can’t. Covenant means full Torah obligation.
And the New Covenant is also a kahal, a community of one Torah, because it contains Torat Moshe (Ezekiel 36; Jeremiah 31). And, sorry Gene, but the gentiles were included into the New Covenant. Thus, hakahal chukah achat applies to them now because they have been included in the covenants (Eph 2).
Shalom,
Peter
“Show me where the proselyte was not commanded to observe Shabbat, kashrut, taharat hamishpochah? You can’t. Covenant means full Torah obligation. ”
First of all, Gentiles are not converts to Judaism (as G-d himself made clear via the Acts 15 ruling). Secondly, Peter, my whole post was dedicated to the fact that Gentiles have not signed on to the Mosaic Covenant. Because of this fact they will not be judged if they fail to live up to the various sign/holiness commandments given to Israel and they even will be judged less severely than Israel if they fail to live up to to ethical/moral ones (Romans 2:12 and 2:9).Thirdly, Gentiles have spiritually benefited from ALL of Israel’s covenants (Ephesians 2:12-13 and Romans 15:27). Fourthly, Gentiles are not Israel. Fifthly, Torah provides numerous examples of differences in obligations between different groups of people, including non-Jews. Sixthly, being included in the New Covenant does not automatically oblige a Gentile to the stipulations of the Mosaic Covenant, and Seventhly, Torah is a moral guide for everyone, Jew and Gentile.
Gene,
Re: “Fifthly, Torah provides numerous examples of differences in obligations between different groups of people, including non-Jews.”
Name one example of something that a covenanted Jew could do in Mosaic Torah that a covenanted gentile could not (besides those things committed to Leviim, which neither Jew nor gentile could do). You can’t. The kahal was a polity of equals.
Re: “First of all, Gentiles are not converts to Judaism (as G-d himself made clear via the Acts 15 ruling)”
No, it says twice that they were epistrepho (converts) and points them to normative Torah lifestyle (15:21). In deciding that the gentiles were “people for His name”, the council deemed that the gentiles were included in the covenant based on the factual record before the court (i.e. the record in re Cornelius demonstrated G-d had accepted the gentiles into the covenant and thus it was incumbent upon Jews to immediately immerse these new converts, complete their initiation into covenantal membership by welcoming them into the community as newborns).
Re: “Fourthly, Gentiles are not Israel”
Not according to Paul. He says they are politeia in Israel (i.e. full citizens with rights in Israel).
“Name one example of something that a covenanted Jew could do in Mosaic Torah that a covenanted gentile could not”
Peter, when you say “gentiles can do everything Jews can”, what you really want to say is “gentiles are OBLIGATED to everything Jews are”. I am showing to you that Gentiles are NOT obligated to the stipulations of the Mosaic Covenant, not whether or not they “could” do this or that. That’s a huge difference missed by OL/Hebrew Roots groups.
“Paul… says they [Gentiles] are politeia in Israel (i.e. full citizens with rights in Israel).”
Wheather or not Gentiles are Israelites, that has been fully dealt with in my two posts titled Are Christians/Gentile believers “spiritual Jews” or “Israelites?” However, Gentiles are citizens of the Commonwealth of Israel, that is the Kingdom of G-d rulled by Messiah from Jerusalem.
Gene,
No, it was only on my blog that you finally admitted that “politeia” means “citizenship.” People can see your comment here:
http://orthodoxmessianic.blogspot.com/2012/07/messianic-acrobatics-question-6.html
….And as I was saying Gentiles are Citizens of Commonwealth of Israel, not Israel and not Israelites. My “OK” was just me being sarcastic. At one point you were arguing that the word “politeia” meant “citizenship” and nothing else. I showed you that the word has MANY possible meanings besides a political one.
Gene,
So it was sarcasm then, your use of “citizen”? Well, that’s disappointing. I thought you had come to your senses. : )
Only you, Gene, would attempt to argue that politeia is non-political. Oy vey.
Gene,
Does Acts 15:1 represent Judaism? I only ask because you keep saying that gentiles are told in Acts 15 to not convert to Judaism, and I just wanted to confirm.
“Does Acts 15:1 represent Judaism?”
Zion, no doubt, it certainly does. I consider it a ruling made by Jews from within Judaism. The “council” was convened to decide on the status of the Gentile believers in relation to Judaism.
Zion, no doubt, it certainly does. I consider it a ruling made by Jews from within Judaism. The “council” was convened to decide on the status of the Gentile believers in relation to Judaism.
Thank you for your clear answer, this will help me to formulate something I hope to address later. By the way, do you share the same understanding as covenantal nomism, shared by “The New Perspective on Paul” crowd?
“By the way, do you share the same understanding as covenantal nomism, shared by “The New Perspective on Paul” crowd?”
I think it makes sense and a welcome departure from the usual treatment of the first century Judaism within Protestant Christianity, which tries to compare Judaism to its arch enemy, Catholicism. Do I believe that every Jew in the first century thought exactly alike? Of course not.
There’s a new book that looks at the Jewish roots of Christianity. Have you ever suspected that Paul hijacked a Jewish movement and turned it into a dying God religion? After all, Jesus was a Jew and would never have told his followers to drink his blood at the last supper.I had my eyes opened by a new book,Cover-Up: How the Church Silenced Jesus’s True Heirs, which tells the whole story. I learned that the Jewish followers of Jesus survived for many centuries striving for the kingdom of justice, the kingdom of God, here on earth.It’s fascinating how much information the church buried because it belied their version of how Christianity came to be. I found the book at http://tinyurl.com/69cazll.
“Have you ever suspected that Paul hijacked a Jewish movement and turned it into a dying God religion?”
Not really – he was a faithful Jew and nothing in his writings contradicts that. I, however, think that later Christians have turned on the Jews, developed disdain toward Judaism, discarded any trace of Jewishness of Jesus until virtually none remained and finally sought to replace Israel with the Church. Indeed, Paul, the Jew that he was, has warned Christians not to do just that:
“..do not boast over those [Jewish] branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you….Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.” (Romans 11:18-20)
Today, however, many Christians have realized the great mistake of their predecessors and are working to reverse the immense damage that has been done. I fully support them in that worthy endeavor.
Acts 15 is misinterpreted by the OL movement. What I think is significant in the whole discussion is that after some 1800 of misinterpretations of the message and work of the Mashiach Yeshua and his emissaries, regarding the Jews, neglecting their original calling, constantly thinking in a OL christian interpretation, Jews who believed in Yeshua were excommunicated if they wouldn’s drop their adherence to the Torat Mosheh. This all based on Acts 15 and other passages. The mistake which the blinded church made was to ignore the equal important counterpart of Acts 15: Acts 21!
There we are told that Paulos, on his arrival in Yerushalaim was informed that there was gossip about him; that he would teach to cease circumcision and the law of Mosheh amongst the Jewish brethren. The council shew him how many ten thousands of Jews there were believing in Yeshua and that they were all zealous in keeping Torah. They wanted to confirm his position, wiping away the accusations made, by offering him the opportunity to show that nothing of the lashon hara was true, by partaking in sustainment of the mitzwoth of others, “Then take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the Torah. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.” (Acts 21:24,25).
So, there it is! All Yehudim that believed in Yeshua adhered zealous to the Torath Mosheh and deviation from it was seen as unacceptable, but “As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only…”. This says enough and makes the distinction.
Now who wants to deafen his ears from the great council in Yerushalayim? Jewish man and among them also Cohanim, priests, all pious an full of the Ruach HaKoddesh?
“So, there it is! All Yehudim that believed in Yeshua adhered zealous to the Torath Mosheh and deviation from it was seen as unacceptable, but “As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only…”. This says enough and makes the distinction.”
@Shmuel haLevi – great points!
Would you believe that some One Law proponents try to dismiss the above evidence by claiming that James and those around him were wrong/sinned in their ruling and this ruling instead is supposedly evidence of the first Messianic Jews discriminating against the Gentiles, trying to keep them from embracing Torah?
Gene:
Omg I didn’t know that! What the heck, this is sad.
I am sorry to say but I feel you are mistaken in your interpretation of what James said because you left verse 21 out. When we read the whole statement we learn that James only gave a few instructions (he did not quote the 10 Commandments) as he understood that the gentiles did not have an understanding of what Elohim wanted so he gave them important instructions which would help with their fellowship with the Jews and then he explains that these Gentiles will get to learn the teachings of Moses when they go to the synagogues every Sabbath Day. This also destroys the teachings that the Sabbath Day had changed.
Acts 15
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Dorothy, it would be more easy if you made clear to whom you are addressing when you say when saying: “you are mistaken”.
Now you Dorothy say, that verse 21 was left out, something can be said about that. The teaching from the nineties of the 20th in some messianic congregations developed that Acts 15:21 should be understood as: let them do does four mitzwoth and let them go to the synagogue, then they will learn the rest, right? (I was there when it developed in the kehilla I attended). Know about what follows in the conclusive letter following the council: “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:”.
Or Ja’akkov was a great hypocrit, taking distance of what those brethren, who where formerly involved in the sect of the Perushin (Pharisees), had taught, or he realy meant what he said and said what he said: “we gave no command”, to do what? to: “be circumcised, and keep Torah”. This is no diplomatic hypocrisy of Ja’akkov, washing his hands clean, so believed knowing that they would take all mitzwoth on their shoulders when they would hear and learn it when they would go to the Beth haKenesseth and than saying to satisfy Paulos and his fellow opponents: No we didnt order! That would be hypocrite, double talk so to say. That is if it means what a lot of OL followers try to make us believe.
But the case is much simpler: Rough guidelines had been given to what the believers from the gentiles had to abstain from. Those where rough guidelines, not exact mitzwoth. To gain the knowledge on the details of these guidelines, they had to go and listen to the Torath Mosheh and take out the mitzwoth that are clearly associated with those guidelines: abstaining from blood, meant: not eating meat which contains blood, that has been properly slaughtered. Fornication, what is it and what forms do there exist? It’s there to learn from Torah. Abstaining from what is offered to the idols. That is the normal way to interpret it. That is what Acts 15:21 does refer to. The other interpretation is highly speculative and makes the the text a contradiction, which it is not of course. The interpretation is.
As on the subject of shabbath:
Shabbath is indeed unchangeable and exists as the G-d blessed and set apart day, long before the Torath Mosheh, immediately after the six days of creation (Gen.2: 2,3).
It is another story of what one should do with this day. It was and is commanded to Yisrael as an eternal ordinance to rest/abstain from servile work on that day and to keep that day ’לַה [l’HASHEM] unto G-d [to Him one must focus while keeping that day]. The sjabbath is unto a sign and a covenant between HASHEM and Yisrael (Ex.31:13,16).
He didn’t ordain the nations to keep such thing, except those who sojourned among the [Scriptural] nation of Yisrael, being added to dwell among them whether they wanted to join in submission to HASHEM or not.
There however is to knowledge no ban for people from the nations outside Yisrael to keep Shabbath, but they are certainly not commanded to do it. The nations outside Eretz Yisrael are free tot do so.
It is certainly incorrect to call Sunday the Shabbath or grant the Sunday the same status. Nowhere in Scripture is stated such thing.
I can imagine that there are those from the nations that want voluntarily comply to [aspects] of Torah, if they read the reason why the Shabbath was established, albeit as an exclusive sign between HASHEM and Yisrael, on the base that HASHEM Himself after the creation set that day apart and rested on it (Gen.2: 2,3). And Noach, the second father of mankind, being the first that was granted to eat meat – and we all are his offspring -; he was alowed to consume it if it contained no blood (Gen.9 3,4). Shortly before he sacrificed the 7 types of animals, which were designated by HASHEM in a additional amount to carry with the arc and were selected because of the fact that they were clean animals (Gen.7:2,3; 8:20). HASHEM distinguished this way between clean and unclean species. Now that Noach was allowed to eat meat, it seems to me, that with the concept of clean and unclean in mind, he voluntarily must haven been tended to choose in favor of the clean species for consumption.
So although things are not commanded, it lies in the voluntary spirit of love to connect close to G-d, to choose what he prefers. . . But generaly spoken I agree with Gene on what the gentiles that belief should adhere to an from what they cay can abstain of the the Torath Mosheh.
I stand by my position, I believe, on the basis of Scripture:
1 Sunday is not Shabbath
2 Shabbath is not commanded to the nations
That an individual from optional and connectedness to G-d [and for health reasons] is going to keep Shabbath since He Himself After all, on the 7th day of creation rested for the one from the nations a voluntary (sensible) thing, but not mandatory!
The nations will in the future, after the Shabbath of 1000 years (the empire of 1000 years of peace), definitely also will be obliged to keep Shabbath:
“וְהָיָה מִדֵּי־חֹדֶשׁ בְּחָדְשׁוֹ וּמִדֵּי שַׁבָּת בְּשַׁבַּתּוֹ יָבוֹא כָל־בָּשָׂר לְהִשְׁתַּחֲוֹת לְפָנַי אָמַר ה׳ And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith HASHEM.” (Is.66:23)
Shmuel, I found your interpretation of Gentiles learning in synagogues the finer details of the specific things they were instructed to abstain from quite plausible.
At the same time it is interesting that James left out any mention of learning in synagogues and of Moshe in the actual letter that was sent to Gentiles.
Gene, I think that that is not necessary, once said. More important now is that it doesn’t work anymore like this nowadays. In those days the Gentiles didn’t posses a handwritten copy of Torah. They had to go to the synagogue. They were not recommended to gather among themselves with a self translated Torah. No they had to go to the local Beith haKenesseth.
This wouldn’t help them today; the parashoth are read in Hebrew without translation, different from those days. In those days there was the Meturgman who made the translation (Megillah 4:4) in either Greek or Aramaic (the Targum). Those in an area were the influence of the Hellenist had been big (alexandria, Egypt, would here the translation in their “mothers tongue” (Philo of Alexandria, De Confusione Linguarum 26 (129); De Congressu Quaerendae Eruditionis Gratia 8 (42,44)) and those at par example Judea, Galilee, Syria (Antioch!) or in Babylon in Aramaic. It was easy to be audience.
So maybe we Jews that believe in the Mashiach should fit in here. But humble. We can only claim to form a Synagogue if we have a sufficient quorum, a Minyan, 10 Yisrelite (Jewish) man at least. This is according to the order we received from above (Devarim 1:15; Shemoth 18:21). Only then we can call it a Jewish congregation. And we should not act so, embarrassing ourselves if we are not interested in reading hebrew. We should learn that ourselves.
At the same time a Jewish man can be a chief over ten man from the Gentiles in such Beth haKenesseth as we might deduce from Zecharyah 8:13).
Minyan has all to do with spiritual covering. Thats why 10 righteous was still sufficient not to destroy Sedom and Amora.
But everyone is envious. Some of the common Yisraelite wanted to have the tasks of the Levites and those wanted to have the work of the Cohanim (priests), and the some of the believers from the nation think they are less or are obliged if they do not do the same as the Jew or claim they are one. And woman that want the same as man and servants that want to be masters. G-d is a G-d of order and structures handed down by Him should not be torn of. This causes problems in the spiritual warfare. If we are in the position that we should be, how humble it might seem, the power of the light an the work of the Ruach haKoddesh can be larger, we not walking in the way of G-d and each other with our flesh.
Shmuel haLevi:
“G-d is a G-d of order and structures handed down by Him should not be torn of. This causes problems in the spiritual warfare. If we are in the position that we should be, how humble it might seem, the power of the light an the work of the Ruach haKoddesh can be larger, we not walking in the way of G-d and each other with our flesh.”
How beautiful, my heart exactly. There’s no room for boasting, fear and insecurity, or envy and usurpation. How unfortunate is the theology that is comprised of those very things…
“At the same time a Jewish man can be a chief over ten men from the Gentiles in such Beth haKenesseth as we might deduce from Zecharyah 8:13.”
That’s an interesting take. Probably won’t sit well with some.
Gene: “That’s an interesting take. Probably won’t sit well with some.”.
Well there are much more difficult passages passages like you wrote about in:
“Will Gentiles Become Servants of the Jews in the Messianic Kingdom?”
Absorbing post. I do believe the Ten Commandments is still relevant for Christians today, as I believe Jesus said in Matthew 5, when He spoke about not one jot nor one tittle passing away, and He gave even more detail about the Commandments, for example, not only must one not murder, one must not get angry without just cause.
Your comment about a third of Jewish people dying calls these verses to mind: “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.” (Revelation 12:3-4 KJV)
Do you folks realize that A) The new covenant has not arrived yet, and b) it is with the “house of Israel and the house of Judah” only?
Gentiles are bound only to the seven laws of Noah (basically Acts 15) or they can convert to Judaism.
The Jewish nation will be redeemed first. Then the Gentiles will be redeemed, after being punished for their abuse of the Jews.
I am a Christian (not all Christians agree with what I will say next). Jesus said we must continue to follow the Ten Commandments. Jesus said, “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:19 KJV) Jesus gave additional meaning to some of the commandments ((Matthew 5:21–24), turning the commandment “thou shalt not kill” around by stating that if we even become angry at someone without just cause, we are in danger of judgement ourselves and that we may be in danger of a fiery hell if we call another a fool. Jesus said if there are any grudges between us and other people, to make sure we reconcile our differences first before bringing our offerings before God. If we even just think lustful thoughts, we are committing adultery. Jesus said we must deny those parts of ourselves that cause us to sin, and we must cast them away from us. Jesus asked us not to make vows, not to swear an oath on any object, as just “Yes” must suffice as “Yes” and just “No” must be “No”.
Jesus summed up the Ten Commandments by giving the world new commandments, of love (the first to love God sums up the first four commandments of the Ten Commandments, the second to love one’s neighbour sums up the last six of the Ten Commandments):
“Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:35–40 KJV)
In another example, when someone asked what good things he needed to do to gain eternal life, Jesus gave six of the Ten Commandments in response, and when the person said he was honouring these, Jesus reminded him that love is above riches:
“And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.” (Matthew 19:16-22 KJV)