Daily Minyan

23 responses to “Question from reader: how to tell a false prophet from the true?”

1. 

   Concerned Reader

   June 11, 2014

   Gene, the time of Messiah’s coming is tied to G-d’s decision, which he alone knows, and according to our own repentance. Even the rabbis teach this, along with all of Jesus’ parables. you’re argument is that since we are not in the 9th inning of a baseball game, we are obviously not playing baseball. By your rationale, even the prophecies of the prophets don’t measure up.
   a prophet who foretells doom may not have his prophecy fulfilled, for people may do repentance. Therefore one can only test a prophet at the time of his prophecy if he foretells good. But even this is limited, for Jacob, whom the holy one, blessed be He, promised “And I shall be with you to guard you wherever you go” feared that he would die, for he might sin. So we see that the good which G-d himself promised might yet not come to pass, had Jacob sinned; how much more so is this true of what a prophet says.
   The Rambam explained that this refers specifically to the prophecy between G-d and the prophet, but when the prophet foretells good for people, absolutely and unconditionally, then if he is a true prophet his prophecy must come to pass.
   The words of the Rambam require study. The Gemara in Brachot 4a says: “And Jacob feared exceedingly, he said, ‘lest I sin,’ as the Baraita says, ‘“Until Your people cross over, O Lord”,’ this is the first coming, ‘“until Your people cross whom You have ransomed”,’ this is the second coming.’ From this the sages said that Israel of Ezra’s day would have deserved having a miracle performed for them as in the days of Joshua the son of Nun, but they sinned.”
   Come and see: The Song of Moses at the sea foretold the second redemption and was a prophecy of good, an unconditional prophecy to people, and even so it did not come to pass because of sin! This is completely the opposite of what the Rambam said.
   And come see another thing: Hulda’s prophecy was proven false. After Shaphan the scribe found the Torah scroll and brought it to Josiah, they went to the prophetess Hulda and she foretold, “So, I will gather you to your fathers and you will be laid in your tomb in peace, and your eyes shall not see all the disaster which I will bring upon this place” (II Kings 22:20). This was a good prophecy about another person, but what happened to Josiah? “The archers shot King Josiah” (II Chronicles 35:23) and as the Talmud Yerushalmi, Kiddushin chapter one, halacha 7 explains, “Rabbi Yochanan said, this teaches you that they made his body as a sieve; Rabbi Yishmael said, they shot three hundred arrows in the Lord’s emissary.” So we find that according to the Rambam, the prophetess Hulda was a false prophet, for her prophecy was a positive one and did not come to pass. But the Ridbaz, in his responsa, part three, section 688, concluded from this question that prophecy meant for a single individual might not come to pass for the subject might sin, but in his opinion prophecy which is meant for the public will come to pass in any case, though it may be delayed, as we have found on the verse, “and the sojourn of the people of Israel in Egypt was 30 and 400 years”–because they had sinned in Egypt, their exile was extended. His words are beyond us, for if the prophecy of one who foretells public good at a specific time does not come to pass, someone could always claim, “Wait a bit, for sin may have delayed the prophecy, as Israel waited in Egypt an extra thirty years.” Any sensible person understands that, given these limitations, there is no way to check if a prophet is true or false.

   Gene, A prophet’s words are tested for consistency against those of the rest of his generation in his day. It is a true prophecy if it fits with predictions of the rest of the generation. Everyone knew the destruction of the temple was coming, and it came to pass. Everyone knew doom was coming, but hoped for redemption. Doom came to pass, as Jesus said it would. The immediate prophecies he gave, came to pass, and those of good news of speedy return have been delayed because of sin. However, through Jesus’ disciples major pangs of the coming of Messiah (and prophecies) did come to pass, without Israel’s or the nations’ merit. (just as Rambam says happens with a prophecy for good.) The nations threw away the old idols, (all whom none worship anymore) and the peoples hoped in him, joining with a group of Jews in fellowship. In what way given this information was Jesus a false prophet?

2. 

   Gene Shlomovich

   June 11, 2014

   “In what way given this information was Jesus a false prophet?”

   I know that you copy/pasted your comment from another blog, but I already answered this question above.

   “The nations threw away the old idols, (all whom none worship anymore) and the peoples hoped in him, joining with a group of Jews in fellowship.”

   Out with the old, in with the new. The nations traded their old demigod and emperor worship for another demigod and emperor (Jesus) worship.

   “The immediate prophecies he gave, came to pass, and those of good news of speedy return have been delayed because of sin.”

   That’s an excuse. There’s no other way to spin “I come quickly”, “some of you will not pass away” (did sin already start before the apostles died?) statements Jesus and NT writers make over and over, along with other promises of speedy return, coming from a supposed G-d (Jesus). Had it come from anyone but Jesus, Christians would have [rightly] called that person a “false prophet”, instead of looking for ways to justify.

   Even today we have Christian end-time “prophets” (Harold Camping comes to mind) who fail, often repeatedly, and their followers are STILL loyal to them and believe the excuses and justifications for the failure of prophecies to come to pass.

3. 

   Concerned Reader

   June 11, 2014

   The “justifications” you talk about, could be argued to be used by the rabbis in the case of the prophecies in Tanakh. I showed you that in that article. You want fulfillment in full, in a way that no prophecy has ever been fulfilled in scripture. The enslavement in Egypt and eventual first redemption was a prophecy of return to the promised land. Nowhere was the calf, or 40 years in the wilderness prophesied, does that mean Prophesies of enslavement, sufferings, and eventual manifold blessing spoken to Abraham by G-d were false? Because it didn’t happen verbatim? Prophesies are often vague at best, and fulfillment is often partial.

4. 

   Gene Shlomovich

   June 11, 2014

   “Prophesies are often vague at best, and fulfillment is often partial.”

   That would make the Deuteronomy 18:22 test meaningless. Jesus and his promoters made specific claims as to the timing of his return. Numerous times they said that it was to be “quick” and on more than one instance his return was to be even within lifetime of his followers. Had he simply said “I am coming one day in the future” or simply stuck to “no one knows the day and the hour” and NEVER said anything else, then you could make an argument. Otherwise, as have Jews always insisted and do to this day, he’s a false prophet that has failed the G-d-ordained test.

   Do you think that the test G-d told Israelites to apply to all would-be prophets somehow doesn’t apply to Jesus, especially considering the stupendously grandiose claims made by him or on his behalf, not the least of which is that He’s G-d in the flesh? He should be tested FAR MORE thoroughly than any other prophet that has ever existed!

5. 

   Concerned Reader

   June 11, 2014

   “Your descendants will be strangers in a land not their own, and will be enslaved there 400 years.’ Genesis 15:13 This was hardly a specific prophesy, and was not specific to what happened exactly, but we don’t throw it away do we?

6. 

   Gene Shlomovich

   June 11, 2014

   I think that it was quite specific. Had G-d said that in Abraham’s own lifetime it would have happened and it failed to materialize, then you can compare it to Jesus’ failed prophecies. (Besides, it was G-d Himself speaking directly to Abraham, not through any prophet.) What G-d has prophesied, has indeed happened.

   The issue here, however, is not about specificity but about being flat wrong. G-d was right and Jesus (or probably his PR team) was proved a liar.

7. 

   Concerned Reader

   June 11, 2014

   What does the test matter anyway Gene when the sages say that prophesy has ceased, despite zero scriptural support for that assessment? That’s part of the problem, Gene. The rabbis have declared game over, when their own literature shows that view to be wholly inconsistent with their own exegesis of various books, prophecies, and occurrences. It’s really hard to tell which way is up with the rabbis at times. It’s difficult to see how you can accuse one group, when both have the same “problems.”

8. 

   Concerned Reader

   June 11, 2014

   Let’s not forget either that Israel was actually in Egypt longer than 400 years. Is the prophesy false in that case?

9. 

   Gene Shlomovich

   June 11, 2014

   “What does the test matter anyway Gene when the sages say that prophesy has ceased, despite zero scriptural support for that assessment?”

   What doesn’t rabbis have to do with a test of the one who claims to be a prophet? If someone claims to be a prophet, even today, the test given by G-d still very much applies.

   “It’s really hard to tell which way is up with the rabbis at times. It’s difficult to see how you can accuse one group, when both have the same “problems.”

   Judaism doesn’t claim perfection and rabbis are not perfect either. You are not obligated to listen or obey rabbis, as a Gentile. The Jewish problem with the “Christian group” is not their wild theologies or opinions, but specifically their acts of worship of Jesus as G-d. Idolatry is the main issue here.

10. 

    Gene Shlomovich

    June 11, 2014

    “Let’s not forget either that Israel was actually in Egypt longer than 400 years. Is the prophesy false in that case?”

    And Jesus wasn’t in the grave three days and three nights, but that’s the least of his problems. When it comes to large numbers, however, rounding off is generally not an issue. Did you want G-d to say 430 years, two months, 1 week, 3 days, 12 hours, 10 minutes, and 2 seconds?

11. 

    David

    June 11, 2014

    It seems pretty clear that, based on the NT passages quoted, that the early followers of JC expected his return soon/within their lifetimes or a short period thereafter.

    That said, in Gemara Avodah Zarah (9a) it says, “The Tanna debe Elyyahu taught that the world is to exist 6000 years; the first would 2000 years are to be void; the next 2000 years are to be the period of the Torah, and the following 2000 years are to be the period of the Messiah.”
    Then he states, “Through our many sins a number of these have already passed, [and the Messiah is not yet].” (Online Talmud published in English by “Come and Hear”)

    This would seem to imply that for the last 2000 years or so, the Messiah could have came, but because of sin, has not.

    Also, Orthodox Rabbi’s whom I have spoken with personally, liken this period of 6000 years to the six days of the week, each day representing a 1000 yr. period and the seventh millennium likened unto Shabbat. The idea being that, either way, Moshiach will come, ready or not, by the end of the sixth millennium.

    This “seventh day-millennium” surrounding Moshiach sounds vaguely similar to the Christian concept of the “1000 year millennial reign” of JC mentioned in the book of Revelation, The same book which states, “I come quickly”.

    Isn’t it possible that there is more to the story here?

    For the record, I am a Ben Noach, not a Christian, and I ascribe to many of the views stated on this blog.

12. 

    Gene Shlomovich

    June 11, 2014

    David, observant Jews certainly do except Messiah to come and hopefully soon (“next year in Jerusalem” has been recited for generations). Some expected it two thousand years ago (or even before that time), and a thousand years ago, and five hundred years ago, a hundred year and even recently, which kind of throws the 6000 year theory when exactly Jews expect Messiah to come into question. It’s a theory. Messiah will be here when G-d wills it.

    At the same time, since Christianity arose out of Jewish messianism and draws upon Hebrew scripture for support, some similarities between the two faiths are to be expected.

13. 

    David

    June 12, 2014

    I agree completely.

    However, and I certainly should have made my point better, your statements, to a certain extent, reinforce the argument I was trying to make:

    The book of Revelation is dated by most scholars at around 95-100 CE. This puts it with other later literature (compared with Mark for example- dated 65-70 CE) It is the later material, that generally speaking at least, gives reasons for a later arrival.

    And, given that the 1000yr millennial reign concept found in Revelation is likely referring to a future millennial Sabbath, (My main point in bringing up the Gemara) I think the phrase, “behold I come quickly”, can’t be understood literally, at least not in the book of Rev.

    I would argue that, perhaps, and I say perhaps, not definitely, it means, “you don’t know when I’m coming, so be prepared.” or “behold I (could) come quickly.”

    Again, none of this is argumentation for JC as Moshiach, just that I think the NT texts are more nuanced and the above allows for congruence between an eminent expectation on the one hand with a 2000 yr. lag on the other precisely because it fits in with the same statements found in the Gemara.

14. 

    Gene Shlomovich

    June 12, 2014

    “It is the later material, that generally speaking at least, gives reasons for a later arrival.”

    On the other hand, if the Book of Revelation is one of the later books, it seems odd that it would have Jesus make the following statements (in bold), besides the “I am coming quickly” ones:

    “And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.“And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.” And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.“”… (Revelation 22:6,7,10,12,20)

    It’s only looks “nuanced” because the so called prophecies NT contains are all over the place. When a prophet says things which must soon take place, preceded by “These words are faithful and true”, and the things prophecied “do not take place”, but two thousand years (and counting) passes, the prophet is discredited, since he failed the Deuteronomy 18:21 test.

    You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the L-rd?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the L-rd does not take place or come true, that is a message the L-rd has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

    So, I am and all the other Jews (and all the righteous Gentiles) are asking ourselves this question: how can we know that the message spoken by Jesus is not the message spoken by the True L-rd? Because what Jesus proclaimed did not take place nor came true, so it’s not the message from G-d. We need not be alarmed, since we are clearly dealing with a false prophet here.

15. 

    David

    June 13, 2014

    Again, I here what your saying. And 22:10 is problematic

    But lets take a closer look at the Greek “en tachei” and “erchomai tachy”. found in the other verses you sited.

    First, “en tachei” literally means “in quickness” and in every other usage found in the NT it implies “sudden action” not “soon”. The better translation of 22:6 is: “things which must come to pass suddenly.” .

    Likewise, in verses 22:7;12 and 20 “erchomai tachy” or “come quickly” can be rendered, “come suddenly” or “come swiftly” or even “come with swiftness”, giving the translation, behold I come suddenly/with swiftness.

    In other words, in all of the above verses, the present indicative tense in the Greek indicates a description of the manner of the coming (swift/suddenly), not the time of the coming (soon).

    The coming will be swift and sudden and therefore one is to be on guard. This then is the source of the urgency. In English the above translations may seem forced, but not in the Greek. Additionally, not only does this interpretation fit better with the normal usage of Greek, but it makes more sense in light of both the historical context (the later dating) and the cultural context (millennial reference) as I’ve argued previously.

    As I always want to be careful to state, whether I’m right or wrong in the above, none of this would be indicative of the truth of any messianic claims by Christians.

    But before any assessments of the NT can be made, one has to be extremely careful regarding hermeneutics, And though there are indeed difficulties in the text in terms of my argument, I do feel it is the better overall understanding of the author’s intended meaning.

16. 

    David

    June 13, 2014

    I should also add, in all humility, that all of the above was done with a basic on-line concordance and I am certainly no expert in Greek. :)

    Additionally I do not want to overstate my case regarding hermeneutics or in any way come off as disrespectful.

    I offer the above interpretations in Revelation as a possible alternative, given certain data.

    But it either way, I think we can agree that it doesn’t change the fact/likelihood that the early followers of JC expected his eminent return given the earliest sources, such as Mark.

17. 

    Gene Shlomovich

    June 13, 2014

    Most modern translations such as NIV in fact translate the word as “soon”, and not quickly or suddenly. Strong’s also has “soon” as the preferred translation, and only offers “suddenly” “by implication”. I think that “suddenly” is an attempt to hide the embarrassing fact that the expectation in the first century was of soon return.

18. 

    David

    June 13, 2014

    I hope its obvious that I think you could be correct.

    I used “biblehub”.

    Just to be clear, we are in agreement that the earliest documents/texts in the Christian canon show that the believers/writers expected an eminent return and were therefore obviously mistaken.

    I just thought it was interesting that there is a possible alternative in the understanding of the book of Revelation than that which you presented.

    But whether I’m right or wrong about Revelation would not change my agreement with your overall point and I certainly, personally, feel no embarrassment regarding which usage of the Greek is correct…:)

19. 

    Gene Shlomovich

    June 13, 2014

    David, with you being a Noahide and a former Christian, may I ask you what’s you spiritual life is like (ex: I am not talking about quality, but rather what do you observe, where do you worship, do you have like-minded people you are friends with, etc?) I am curious about the path you have taken and how it progressed.

20. 

    David

    June 15, 2014

    Gene,

    I would be happy to share that info.

    I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist/Evangelical home. There was a strong emphasis on hell and damnation from the pulpit which essentially made me terrified of G-d, but as most people raised from birth in such an any religious environment, I assumed that what I had been taught was correct.

    When I entered college I was exposed to a whole new world, for example evolution (I earned a B.S. in biochemistry) as well as numerous different religious and irreligious points of view.

    By the end, I didn’t know what to believe and for the next 10 years I pursued a rather decadent life-style though deep down I was still terrified I was going to hell for it.

    At 31, while going through a kind of existential crisis, I met a woman who had a similar background to myself only she had grown up in a quasi-Messianic type environment.

    Feeling a need to connect to G-d, or at least a higher power, I began to investigate Christianity again, only I took a more scholarly approach. Once I learned of the Jewish antecedents to Christianity, I of course began to investigate Judaism. I immediately felt a magnetic pull within myself toward the Torah, Judaism and the Jewish people. However, no matter how illogical it might be, I struggled with giving up Christian beliefs for fear of Hell.

    So I ended up in a Messianic environment, attempting to be “Torah observant” while maintaining a basically Christian set of beliefs. However I continued to struggle with doubts and my unanswered questions persisted. This all started in about 2003.

    Eventually, I just couldn’t ignore that fact that the NT, especially in its views relating to the Torah, could not be reconciled with the Tanakh. In addition, I became disillusioned with the fact that most Messianics I met were not really interested in Torah observance either.

    The turning point was my taking a position teaching biology at a Modern Orthodox Jewish day school in my area in 2005. (by this time I had earned a secondary teaching certificate)

    By now, I had resigned myself to the idea that I was an ethical monotheist, with a strong attraction to Judaism, but I had no community with which to worship/pray etc. In 2009, several Rabbis who recently joined the school took an interest in me and, as we became friends, were willing to answer my questions.

    One Rabbi in particular offered to teach me the sheva mitzvos b’nei Noach, from the sources in Hebrew. After a while the other Rabbi’s became part of our group and, B’H’, have all become my closest friends. I practice/observe them to the best of my ability. I am part of an on-line Noahide group but I pray at home and my real community is the Jewish community. In fact, my wife and I recently moved into the Jewish community near the school. We spend most Shabbatot eating meals with various families of students, fellow teachers and the Rabbis as everyone has been very welcoming to us.

21. 

    Gene Shlomovich

    June 15, 2014

    David, thank you for sharing your great story! People often wonder what are the alternatives if they are to leave Christianity. Some of my Christian friends who have had doubts about Christianity are nevertheless skeptical that as Gentiles they can find their place in the world not being part of an organized religion or find their spot in a Jewish world, or that in becoming a Noahide they can lead a satisfying spiritual life. I may ask you to do a guest post on this topic, if you are willing.

22. 

    David

    June 16, 2014

    Gene,

    You are very welcome.

    By far the biggest challenge facing the Noahide movement is that of community and I must say that I feel that I am part of a very blessed minority to have the opportunities I have.

    I must say however, being a Noahide, even within the Jewish community, is not always easy. Even though my wife and I are known, loved, and respected within the community, at the end of the day we are not fully a part of that community as we are not under the same obligations, regarding kashrus, the chagim, Shabbos, etc.

    We can feel part, but sometimes not part, at the same time. Of course, I have discussed this with my closest friends and Rabbi’s. The decision before me, like many Noahides I am sure, is that of conversion to Judaism. Personally, it has been in my heart to convert for several years, even before I began studying the Noahide laws. However, my wife is not as far along on this journey as myself, though she is moving closer so to speak.

    This was in fact part of the reason my friend and Rabbi offered to study the sheva mitzvos with me in the beginning. It was a way for me to study the Torah, and halacha and enjoy the beauty and depth of each, within the framework of observance that is permissible to me as a Gentile/Noahide, while in a situation where conversion was obviously difficult.

    Please don’t misunderstand me, the Noahide way of life as I have been living it is indeed rich and beautiful in every way in terms of Torah, halacha and middos. I feel closer to G-d now than I ever have before and I couldn’t ask for more wonderful, supportive and welcoming friends than those we have here in the Jewish community in which we live.

    But in terms of the Noahide movement in general, the lack of real, face to face communities in which like-minded Noahides can pray, study and worship together, I feel, is a big, big issue and I can understand the dilemma of your Christian friends you mentioned..

    I would indeed be happy to do a guest post.

23. 

    Gene Shlomovich

    June 16, 2014

    David, yes, I would appreciate if you did a guest post. I believe that there are a lot of folks, including my readers, who are on a similar journey and would appreciate your perspective and practical advice. So, please email it to me when you’re ready, at jewishthoughts@gmail.com. If you have a lot to write, we could make it a multi-part series.