is-it-finishedChristianity makes a claim that Jesus was not only “god” in a human body, but also a “sacrificial lamb” whose death atoned for the innumerable sins of billions of people, past, present and future. Although one would be hard-pressed to find support for such an idea in the Hebrew Bible, for hundreds of years Christian theology has taken it for granted that its idea of G-d becoming His own servant and then executing Himself (or rather an “avatar” version of Himself, a deity with human flesh on) to pay for the sins of His creatures is completely in accord with the Jewish scriptures. Not only that, Christians believe this is what G-d intended to do all along. (It’s too bad that Jews can’t seem to find the “obvious” clues in their own scriptures.)

So, was Jesus really sacrificed to rescue all of us from ourselves and to reconcile all “sinners” with G-d? For Christians completely immersed into the Christian worldview it’s preposterous to even consider such a question. How dare?! But to an outside observer, especially one who is familiar with the Hebrew Bible, it obvious that not only was Jesus not sacrificed “according to Biblical regulations”, he wasn’t sacrificed at all.

Jesus was killed the same way all other Jewish criminals and rebels against Rome at the time were killed – by the Romans, using a distinctly Roman method of execution. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were executed by the Romans or killed during Roman military onslaughts. One could say that they were slaughtered “like sheep”, but they were not sacrificed and their deaths paid for nobody’s sins. Besides, as the Bible teaches, each person is responsible for his own sin (Deuteronomy 24:16). Jesus was a messianic pretender, one among many, before him and after him. He wasn’t a sinless person (since there’s no such thing) and in fact, if what NT records about him is true, he was a great sinner because he was a false prophet and teacher who deceived many.

It’s true – there are many good Christians today who want nothing but to help their fellow human beings. I know quite a few myself. They are kind, generous and friendly, and unlike their predecessors, even toward the “unbelieving Jews”. However, it’s equally true that the religion founded on worshiping a Jewish man as if he were god was a catalyst for terrible hatred, suffering and death to millions of Jesus’ own countrymen as well as horrific treatment of the millions of others who were forcibly converted or slaughtered for resisting Christianity.

Some would object by saying that Christianity’s acquisition of political power is what ultimately corrupted the once “pure” message. I get it, perhaps this is so, at least on some level. Yes, religion in the hands of a political power can be a terrible thing. However, even if we were to excuse all of this pain inflicted in the name of Jesus on humanity by claiming that his followers were mere “failed” human beings, we should not forget about Jesus’ own failings that started it all. We should still remember that Jesus’ own teachings (as recorded in the New Testament, faithfully or not) sowed the seeds of hatred for those who rejected him, especially Jews. They sowed a great deal of confusion and division, chiefly among his own followers, which persist to this day. We should also not forget that his prophecies of speedy return in the lifetime of his own followers and even foes who were his contemporaries failed miserably, forever branding him a false prophet in Jewish eyes and in the eyes of those who can judge Jesus objectively. Was he the same sort of “prophet” that we still see in our own day and age when we witness the numerous and invariably Christian “prophets” predicting the end of the world in the lifetime of their own followers? Was Jesus misunderstood and were his original teachings corrupted by later church scribes? We may never know what really happened. What becomes clear, however, is that in Jesus one could hardly find a less acceptable sacrifice to reconcile us with G-d, at least from a Jewish point of view. Which makes me thankful to the G-d of Israel that He is already near to all who call upon Him, to those who do so in truth (Psalm 145:18).

41 responses to “Jesus, an acceptable “sacrifice”?”

  1. Julian Avatar
    Julian

    Gene, you raise a number of very legitimate issues, which I think any Jewish person should grapple with before believing in Jesus. I just have problems with the objection raised in the previous post. That’s all.

  2. The Real Messianic Avatar
    The Real Messianic

    Not only Jewish people, but all those who want to believe in Yeshua. And those who already accepted him as a god even before asking any questions. This is almost all the time true, Christians/Messianic are asked to accept him even before checking the evidences and the other side of the coin. I don’t know anybody in the messianic world that accepted him after checking the facts, but rather they accepted him after an emotional plea from the preacher, the warning of hell and the “fact” that G-d won’t forgive you if you don’t accept his sinless lamb as a sacrifice! And, voilà! You are a follower and want to prove him as G-d even before checking if it makes sense… you (the new believe) are totally bias even before you check if it’s true, you are drinking the milk of the new testament as inspired and true and you (the new believer) are teached quite early that those who don’t see that truth are blinded by satan, blind and of bond to their sins… You have no other option than clinch to Yeshua for assurance of salvation, if not, you are a Judas who deserve to take a stone an throw yourself in the middle of the deep blue sea!

  3. The Real Messianic Avatar
    The Real Messianic

    “The evil generation I referenced was not referring to anyone in the Old Covenant- if you want to make an argument please stay on topic. Anyone can confuse the issue by jumping back and forth- I was in the New Covenant, talking about Yeshua telling the Pharisees who required a sign even after they had seen all the miracles, not Ahab or Gideon- to discuss a statement we need to stay in context with that statement or you lose your credibility.”
    The “new” covenant is false, and this is just another example of his false teaching. Those who asked signs in the Tanakh are the true followers of G-d, those who don’t are the prideful and the wicked, this is simple, the Pharisees were right to ask a sign of to doubt he was a true prophet. Look at the quantity of phony out there,… is it right to accept them just because they say so?

    “And, yes- there definitely was a sign, it’s called resurrection.”
    And nobody of the Pharisees saw it! That must be such an outstanding sign as the virgin birth that nobody went to check if it was true… But as long as they did not see it, it was not a sign for them at all!

    “It wasn’t given then and there but it was given. For those that have eyes to see and ears to hear means, simply, those that want to accept or those that won’t. It is clear that you do not want to accept, so I appreciate your comments but as strongly as you do not accept what I say, I do not accept your belief that Yeshua is not Messiah. Let’s just say we agree to disagree, and pray for each other that we each learn the truth, whatever it is, before we meet HaShem. OK?”
    If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,”…
    Maybe you are right and Yeshua did raise from the dead, but does it matter? Let’s just agree to disagree on that one, but why should you just accept your “truth” without testing it?
    Thanks for your conversation anyway…

  4. Questor Avatar

    I understand that Rabbinical Jews do not want to have anything to do with Yeshua ben Yosef…they have the right to do just as many stupid things as Christians do, and to believe what has been passed down to them over the centuries, whether right or wrong, or tainted by human touch. The fact that Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism developed in opposition to each other does not take away from the effect that this one man…and I said man, had on the entire world, nor that the teachings of both the Old and New Scriptures help one to get closer to G-d.

    And as a Messianic Gentile…a Talmedei Yeshua, truly trying to walk in the footsteps of Rav Yeshua, one does get confirmation upon asking G-d to come into your life, and going through a mikvah to cleanse one’s self of impurity, and so forth. The Ruach haKodesh is interested in those of us that seek G-d through Yeshua ben Yosef, and Yeshua’s prophecies have so far been fulfilled…if we can accept the required witnesses, of which there were many.

    And if haSatan is impersonating the Ruach haKodesh to those of us trying to get close to G-d…he’s going about it in a very strange way, getting a lot of Gentiles to look at YHVH, and to seek Him, and love Him, and attempt to obey Him as He instructs…in the Torah.

    Most Christians don’t follow Torah directly, but many walk in uprightness…simply by attempting to follow what Yeshua taught. And Yeshua’s teachings have changed the world, even if his life and teachings have been used by both Jews and Gentiles for political aims.

    Yeshua, for all the faults of the Apostolic writings, and the faults of the Tanakh, which also is not perfect, nor without contradiction because of humans writing down the thoughts of G-d, has had more people seek YHVH, however clumsily the people may go about it, and however badly Rabbinical Jews want them to stop.

    As for Yeshua not being sinless, are you sure you want to start judging him? He was walking without fault, or no one would have feared him…. Oh…the idea that he blasphemed? How do you know that is so…the Apostolic Writings state that he did not open his mouth…one way or the other…about the matter, except to say, in effect, “Those are your words.” But he was cut off from life just as was prophesied by Daniel…and right on time too.

    Do I expect him to return in a glorified body in power…Yep. But you don’t have to, if you don’t want to. And if I am wrong in this matter, well, Abba is certainly not telling me to stop valuing Rav Yeshua as my teacher and as a prophet.

    Do I think he is the son of G-d? I think we all have that opportunity.

    Isaiah 56:3-8 (CJB)
    3 A foreigner joining Adonai should not say, “Adonai will separate me from his people”; likewise the eunuch should not say, “I am only a dried-up tree.”
    4 For here is what Adonai says: “As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant:
    5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off.
    6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to Adonai to serve him, to love the name of Adonai, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant,
    7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”
    8 Adonai Elohim says, he who gathers Isra’el’s exiles: “There are yet others I will gather, besides those gathered already.”

    Isaiah 65:1 (CJB)
    1 “I made myself accessible to those who didn’t ask for me, I let myself be found by those who didn’t seek me. I said, ‘Here I am! Here I am!’ to a nation not called by my name.

    Isaiah 66:18-21 (CJB)
    18 “For I [know] their deeds and their thoughts. “[The time] is coming when I will gather together all nations and languages. They will come and see my glory,
    19 and I will give them a sign. I will send some of their survivors to the nations of Tarshish, Pul, Lud (these are archers), Tuval, Greece and more distant coasts, where they have neither heard of my fame nor seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory in these nations;
    20 and they will bring all your kinsmen out of all the nations as an offering to Adonai — on horses, in chariots, in wagons, on mules, on camels — to my holy mountain Yerushalayim,” says Adonai, “just as the people of Isra’el themselves bring their offerings in clean vessels to the house of Adonai.
    21 I will also take cohanim and L’vi’im from them,” says Adonai.

    I am not trying to prove anything to anyone based on any writings, however brilliantly inspired by G-d, that were written by men. No such proof exists. for Jew or Gentile…and G-d will sort the whole thing out in the last day…which, is fine by me, because in the end, we are talking about faith in YHVH.

  5. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    “The fact that Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism developed in opposition to each other does not take away from the effect that this one man”

    Questor, the Pharisaic (Rabbinic) movement within Judaism has been around long before Christianity came along. Christianity has had a lot to say about Judaism (starting with its foundational text, the NT, which is dripping with criticism and outright disdain toward its parent religion). Judaism, on the other hand, has had very little to say about Christianity. It mostly ignores it. In fact, when you read Talmud, the main text of Judaism after the Bible, it’s hard to see where it even eludes to Christianity or its founder, except possibly in a few disputed passages. Christianity is obssessed with Judaism and Jews. Don’t tell me that BOTH “developed in opposition to each other”. Both Christianity and its sister religion, Islam, developed themselves in opposition to Judaism. Both depend wholy on Judaism for their claimed foundations. Judaism doesn’t need either of them to exist and will be around long after those two false religions pass away from the world stage into oblivion.

    ‘As for Yeshua not being sinless, are you sure you want to start judging him?”

    I judge him on this blog all the time. A false prophet and false teacher and idol deserves this much.

    “Most Christians don’t follow Torah directly, but many walk in uprightness…simply by attempting to follow what Yeshua taught.”

    Many Christians are good people. But so are many atheists and people of other religions. As far as religious people go, however, for me being “upright” these days includes not worshiping idols. After all, it’s the first commandment of Torah.

  6. Questor Avatar

    Do as you please, Gene…it’s your soul and your eternity. But I don’t worship Yeshua either, nor do I worship Idols….I worship YHVH as a gentile, and add Torah as quickly as the Ruach haKodesh enables me. As for the Jesus you judge…that is a Christian idol, and a completely different religion. I was talking about the man, Yeshua, who was a Jew, walking uprightly in Judea and propounding nothing that is not in the Tanakh, not claiming to be YHVH, and encouraging the mitzvot of the Torah until the end of the age, which so far as I can see, has not happened.

    What the Roman-Greco Christian Church did is not my concern, for they have obviously gone astray from Nazarene Judaism, and were happy to divorce the Nazarene movement in Judaism, and amend the Apostolic Gospels to suit their purposes, just as the Rabbinical Jews worked with the Roman Government after AD 70, and separated themselves from the Nazarenes more than they did prior to AD 66. The Sadducees and Essenes died out under Roman Rule of Judea, as did the Nazarenes…but it took almost 400 years, by which time the Christians were persecuting everyone who did not worship Idols, as I am sure you know.

    And I am also aware that Yeshua ben Yosef was a Pharisee of the Hillelite School.

    I am truly sorry that you were involved with the Christian Church…I never have been able to stand for the Christian ideas, and walk very warily around that religion. Some ‘Christians’ actually do follow Torah, and only worship YHVH, but obviously you didn’t meet them.

  7. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    “Do as you please, Gene…it’s your soul and your eternity.”

    Questor, are you implying that I am headed for hell because of Jesus? Sure seems like that’s what you are doing.

  8. Shirley Anne (@ShirleyAnneTait) Avatar

    Good article, but as a Christian, I see things a bit differently – other Christians may not agree with me.

    Firstly, Jesus was the Son of God, so God didn’t sacrifice a version of Himself, the Father sent His Son to earth, His Son who was with the Father in the beginning. John 3:16 says God gave His only begotten son – begotten means born. Jesus was the Father’s infant son born in the spirit world and then also on earth (Genesis mentions “us” in verse 1:26 for God, hence Father and Son, and Holy Spirit too many say).

    Secondly, when Christians follow Jesus and accept Him as Lord and Savior, their souls then are part of Jesus’ Kingdom, and they are thus saved from the devil’s kingdom. So the way I see it is that even though we are all sinners, when we choose to become part of Jesus’ Kingdom, that act saves us from the devil and from our sins which we would normally go to hell for.

  9. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    “Jesus was the Father’s infant son born in the spirit world”

    Shirley, are you saying that there was a time when the spirit of Jesus didn’t exist? And you seem to believe that Jesus wasn’t “god”, right? Or is Jesus still god?

  10. The Real Messianic Avatar
    The Real Messianic

    Shirley, do you have two gods, two lords, two saviours, two rocks, tow redeemers?

  11. Mr. Cohen Avatar

    Asher Wade was an ordained pastor in the
    Methodist Church before he converted to Judaism:

    http://asherwade.com/about/

  12. Mr. Cohen Avatar

    AVROHOM BEN AVROHOM is the biography of Graf Valentin Pototcki, a European nobleman who converted to Judaism in the early 1700s.

    SO STRANGE MY PATH by A. Carmel is the biography of Father Kenneth Cox, a Catholic priest who converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1953.

    ORDAINED TO BE A JEW is the autobiography of John David Scalamonti, who was a Catholic priest for 5 years before he converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1972.

    ESCAPE FROM JESUS is the autobiography of Shlomoh Sherman, a “Jewish Christian” rejected Jesus and accepted Judaism, published by Decalogue Books in 1983.

    MY SISTER THE JEW is the autobiography of Delores Grey, who was a Christian minister before she converted to Orthodox Judaism.

    PLAYING WITH FIRE is the autobiography of Tova Mordechai, who became a Christian minister at age 25, before she became an Orthodox Jew.

    Aharon Calderon, a former Benedictine monk born in 1970, converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1998. He said: “The G_d of Israel is a G_d of love who accepts all mankind.”
    SOURCE: Hamodia Magazine section, 05/31/2006, pages 12 and 21, article by Michael Fruend, entitled: From Monastery to Meah Shearim.

    Methodist minister Asher Wade converted to Orthodox Judaism in May 1983.
    His web site is: www dot AsherWade dot com

  13. Fernandos Gidaropoulos Avatar
    Fernandos Gidaropoulos

    I believe in The Holy Spirit, The Lord and giver of life……who proceeds from The Father, together with The Father and The Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets.

  14. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Wow, Every one misses so much when they misinterpret scripture!

    First of all Jesus was not born without original sin. God cleansed him at his baptism of the Holy Ghost, By God, Acts 10:38. Jesus remained without further sin by the power of God given him to do so. Same as every believer.

    God tries believers. That is why they are not all given the Holy Spirit in it’s fullness at the onset of baptism in the Holy Ghost. God has his timing.

    Jesus is not to be worshipped as God because he was only a man like every one else. But Jesus was GIVEN the Holy Ghost in it’s fullness by God for the purpose of his ministry.

    The thing that made Jesus Lord and Master is the example that he set. That example is what Christians follow. A: Believe and obey God’s voice. B: Receive the Holy Spirit.

    No life available to man but by this process that God set in place.

    Psalms 20:4, KJV, He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

    Psalms 71:20, KJV, Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

    Psalms 80:18, KJV, So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

    Psalms 119, KJV, 25,37,40,88,107,149,156,157,159, KJV, ;Quicken thou me, or Quicken me, for each one.

    Psalm 143:11, KJV, Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name’s sake: for thy righteousness’ sake bring my soul out of trouble.

    Nothing, No man that God has Made, is Quickened, That is given spiritual life, but by God through the faith that Jesus had toward God for this same purpose.

    Simply Put Jesus was the first to receive the Holy Spirit from God making him the first to be born again.

    BUT HERE IS ISRAEL:

    Psalm 81:11, KJV, But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.

    Deuteronomy 32:15
    But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—becoming fat, bloated, and gorged. He abandoned the God who made him and scorned the Rock of his salvation.

    Jeremiah 7:24
    Yet they did not listen or incline their ear, but they followed the stubborn inclinations of their own evil hearts. They went backward and not forward.

    Isaiah 65:2
    All day long I have held out My hands to an obstinate people who walk in the wrong path, who follow their own imaginations,

    Hosea 4:6
    My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you as My priests. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children.

    2 Kings 17:14
    But they would not listen, and they stiffened their necks like their fathers, who did not believe the LORD their God.

    Nehemiah 9:29
    You admonished them to turn back to Your law, but they were arrogant and disobeyed Your commandments. They sinned against Your ordinances, by which a man will live if he practices them. They turned a stubborn shoulder; they stiffened their necks and would not obey.

    Ezekiel 20:8
    But they rebelled against Me and refused to listen. None of them cast away the abominations before their eyes, and they did not forsake the idols of Egypt. So I resolved to pour out My wrath upon them and vent My anger against them in the land of Egypt.

    Proverbs 1:24-25
    Because you refused my call, and no one took my outstretched hand, / because you neglected all my counsel, and wanted none of my correction,

    Zechariah 7:11-12
    But they refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder; they stopped up their ears from hearing. / They made their hearts like flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD of Hosts had sent by His Spirit through the earlier prophets. Therefore great anger came from the LORD of Hosts.

    2 Chronicles 36:16
    But they mocked the messengers of God, despising His words and scoffing at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD against His people was stirred up beyond remedy.

    Jeremiah 6:10
    To whom can I give this warning? Who will listen to me? Look, their ears are closed, so they cannot hear. See, the word of the LORD has become offensive to them; they find no pleasure in it.

    Ezekiel 3:7
    But the house of Israel will be unwilling to listen to you, since they are unwilling to listen to Me. For the whole house of Israel is hard-headed and hard-hearted.

    Nehemiah 9:29-30
    You admonished them to turn back to Your law, but they were arrogant and disobeyed Your commandments. They sinned against Your ordinances, by which a man will live if he practices them. They turned a stubborn shoulder; they stiffened their necks and would not obey. / You were patient with them for many years, and Your Spirit admonished them through Your prophets. Yet they would not listen, so You gave them into the hands of the neighboring peoples.

    Isaiah 30:9-11
    These are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to obey the LORD’s instruction. / They say to the seers, “Stop seeing visions!” and to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us the truth! Speak to us pleasant words; prophesy illusions. / Get out of the way; turn off the road. Rid us of the Holy One of Israel!”

    Jeremiah 11:7-8
    For from the time I brought your fathers out of the land of Egypt until today, I strongly warned them again and again, saying, ‘Obey My voice.’ / Yet they would not obey or incline their ears, but each one followed the stubbornness of his evil heart. So I brought on them all the curses of this covenant I had commanded them to follow but they did not keep.”

    Isaiah 63:10
    But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit. So He turned and became their enemy, and He Himself fought against them.

    SEE HOW THAT ISRAEL GRIEVED GOD’S HOLY SPIRIT.

    STEPHEN WAS VERY BOLD BEING FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST THAT GOD PROMISED, WHEN HE SAID:

    Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. ACTS 7:51, KJV.

    HE SAID “UNCIRCUMCISED IN HEART”

    WHEN DID THAT CHANGE ?

  15. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Jesus sacrifice was that of obedience to God in letting God help him deal with the fallen nature.

    Pretty simple.

  16. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Isaiah 1:13-15
    Bring your worthless offerings no more; your incense is detestable to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, and convocations—I cannot endure iniquity in a solemn assembly. / I hate your New Moons and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. / When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.

    Matthew 27:4, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

  17. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    You can’t be angry with me. I’m giving you scripture. if you have an argument you are only arguing with the one who wrote the book, that you say you obey.

  18. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    Hi Doug – I’ve heard all of these Christian twisting of the Jewish scriptures before, many times over. Spewed by idol worshippers who don’t know a lick of Hebrew, yet claim to know better than the people who actually wrote the scriptures. You are simply promoting the same old idolatry of creature-worship, putting a dead Jewish man on a pedestal and calling him “god”. Destructive idolatry as has been done for thousands of years. We Jews will still be here when the former Christians or their children will come, in deep shame and repentance, to Jews, seeking the true G-d of Israel, declaring that “our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things. Can a person make gods for himself? But they are not gods!” (Jeremiah 16:19-21)

  19. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Hello Gene, thanks for giving the time of day.

    But, where in any of my comments or emails to you did I say that Jesus is God ?

    I said that Jesus trusted in God for his own salvation first, so that others would have the trail blazed for them to follow.

    Jesus would not have been able to resist the devil’s onslaught of temptations without the baptism of the Holy Spirit from God. Acts 2:33; 1038.

    That is why Jesus ministry did not begin until he was baptized in the Holy Ghost.

    Your answers have no substance. The scriptures you cite are not applicable to the conversation at hand. Why do I need to know Hebrew to understand God’s truth.

    Every language expert knows that there are very few transliterations from one language to another.

    Using a wrong definition of a word is common for those who only want to prove their point.

    Fact is, neither of us know any thing without God teaching.

    That is why David said: take not thy Holy Spirit from me. Psalms 51:11, KJV, Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

    A man can learn nothing but by the Holy Spirit of the Living God, Jew or not.

    What gives Jews the corner on interpretation seeing that they have rejected the old and the New Covenants ?

    You say Oh!, we are just fine with God.

    Where is your temple ?

  20. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    From a Jewish point of view, your argument depends on Christian ideas that simply aren’t in Tanakh. Judaism does not teach a “fallen nature” or being “born again.” Tanakh teaches moral choice and responsibility, yetzer ha-tov and yetzer ha-ra, and repentance, “I have set before you life and death… choose life” (Deut. 30:19). Each person answers for himself, “The soul that sins, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20).

    Ruach HaKodesh in Tanakh is prophetic inspiration or divine assistance, not a salvation mechanism. Kings and prophets receive it and sometimes lose it (I Samuel 16:14). When David says “take not Your Holy Spirit from me” (Psalm 51:11), he is speaking about divine closeness and inspiration, not eternal salvation.

    “Uncircumcised of heart” did not change later. Moses already uses it, “Circumcise the foreskin of your heart” (Deut. 10:16). It means stubbornness and rebellion, not a new covenant or spiritual rebirth system.

    The rebukes of Israel you quote do not mean rejection or replacement. G-d disciplines Israel because the covenant is permanent, “Yet for all that… I will not reject them nor break My covenant” (Lev. 26:44). Jeremiah explicitly says the covenant with Israel will never be replaced (Jer. 31:35–36).

    Isaiah’s criticism of sacrifices (Isaiah 1) condemns hypocrisy and bloodshed, not Torah observance itself. The same prophets command repentance and continued obedience (Isaiah 1:16–17).

    Judaism does not teach that one man’s faith or obedience gives spiritual life to others. “Fathers shall not die for sons, nor sons for fathers” (Deut. 24:16).

    As for the Temple, Tanakh itself predicts exile and teaches serving G-d without it through prayer and repentance (Hosea 14:2–3; Daniel 6:11). G-d did not disappear with the Temple, and neither did the covenant. Tanakh does not teach that its absence is permanent. The prophets explicitly say a future Temple will be rebuilt. Ezekiel gives detailed descriptions of a restored Temple and its service (Ezekiel 40–48). Isaiah speaks of G-d’s house again being “a house of prayer for all nations” (Isaiah 56:7). Zechariah says that those who are far off will come and build in the Temple of the L-RD (Zechariah 6:12–15). The destruction of the Temple was a punishment, not a replacement of the covenant, and its rebuilding is part of Israel’s restoration, not the end of it.

    That is the Jewish understanding, straight from the prophets.

    If we’re discussing Tanakh on its own terms, that’s fine. If the conclusion is already Jesus-centered, then we’re simply not having the same conversation.

  21. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    your quote: “The rebukes of Israel you quote do not mean rejection or replacement. G-d disciplines Israel because the covenant is permanent, “Yet for all that… I will not reject them nor break My covenant” (Lev. 26:44). Jeremiah explicitly says the covenant with Israel will never be replaced (Jer. 31:35–36).”

    A covenant is a contract. You overlooked verse 32 of Jer. 31, “which covenant they brake” God did not brake the covenant. Israel did. How does one party to a contract fail to keep their part and then say that they still have a part in it at their own say so ? When one party fails to keep their part, the other party is quit from their obligation. That is why God said a New Covenant, v. 31 of Jer. 31, ‘Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    your quote: “Judaism does not teach that one man’s faith or obedience gives spiritual life to others. “Fathers shall not die for sons, nor sons for fathers” (Deut. 24:16).”

    Completely out of context. The father gives nothing to the son. And the son gives nothing to the father by omission of guilt on the part of one or the other.

    But God alone Gives to all the power to overcome sin. If they will receive it.

    Sin is why men die, spiritually.

    If you do not believe in the fall of all mankind by the disobedience of one, then why does God require obedience, because all are righteous according to your words.

    And if all are righteous then why does God require repentance ?

    If we are talking about the inability of many who prefer to please God by works v. faith and obedience to His voice, a conversation which you have already apparently made your permanent decision, then the conversation is moot.

    Nothing left to do but wait and see.

    Only one of us can be correct.

    Your quote: “From a Jewish point of view, your argument depends on Christian ideas that simply aren’t in Tanakh. Judaism does not teach a “fallen nature” or being “born again.”

    ORIGINAL SIN

    Genesis 4:7, If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    Job 14:4, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

    Psalms 51:5, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Isaiah 48:8, Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

    Genesis 6:5, And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Isaiah 64:6, But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM

    Isaiah 44:3, For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

    Ezekiel 36:26, 27, (26) I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Hebrew-English Tanakh: The Jewish Bible 1917, Ezekiel 36:26,27

    [26]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.[27]And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances,and do them. (NOTE: HAS ANY ONE ASKED THE RABBIS WHY THE 1917 TANAKH AND THE 1985 TANAKH ARE DIFFERENT ?)

    Surely no one can lead you to such an high understanding as salvation if you refuse to be led to obey the fundamental scriptures that you say that you stand on.

  22. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Correction to Job 14:4, for “original sin”, Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Apologies.

  23. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Leviticus 19:2, “Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.

    To whom does the Most High God seek unto for forgiveness of His sins ?

    Yet He is Holy.

    Joshua 24:19, And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

    And God has commanded His people to holiness.

    Exodus 19:6, And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Why is the definition of holy different for the children of God than for God Himself ?

    I have this conversation with false ‘christians’ all the time.

    The word of God throughout the old and the new testaments says that God heareth not sinners.

    When they go to temple or to ‘church’ and they ask God to forgive them for something that they had a choice whether to do that wrong thing in the first place, will God continually forgive them for something that they were not truly remorseful to begin with?

    God is not a gullible child that He just doesn’t even know what deceivers are up to.

    God is not a fool. Neither is God mocked.

    Are those individuals who think that God forgives continual willful sin now holy just long enough for God to hear them because they think that God is a forgiving loving God ?

    And when did they go from sinners to righteous and then back to sinners again ?

    Does any one know ?

    You fools,. You pots who call the kettle black.

    His Judgement comes upon all nations. And none will escape.

    God provided an escape from His wrath.

    The cleansing of the conscience and perfecting of your ways.

    But those who reject His grace will know who they have crossed.

    Therefor Ezekiel said: Speak unto the righteous that the righteous sin not.

    But the masses make excuses and say it’s not so.

    God Himself will show who are His and who are not.

  24. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Men build carnal houses for men.

    God builds spiritual houses for God.

  25. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Jesus’ sacrifice was not carnal, it was spiritual. Sure men took his carnal life. It was prophesied that they would. But first Jesus put away the works of the flesh. But not without God’s help. The help from God that those who are nominal in their faith resist, both ‘jews’ and ‘christians’. I am not for any who are not for God. But I will have done my part here in this place.

    Habakkuk 2:2, And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

    Wait for it.

  26. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    Doug,

    You’re importing contract law categories into a covenant that Tanakh itself explicitly defines differently. Jeremiah 31:32 already acknowledges that Israel broke the covenant, yet the very same chapter then states that Israel will never be rejected or replaced, as long as the sun, moon, and stars exist (Jer. 31:35–36). That is not my interpretation, that is the text. A covenant that survives breach by divine promise is not annulled like a human contract. Leviticus 26 says the same thing explicitly, even after listing Israel’s sins: “I will not reject them nor break My covenant with them” (Lev. 26:44). The Tanakh answers your objection before you raise it.

    “New covenant” in Jeremiah is not a new people or a replacement covenant. The verse says plainly it is made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It describes internalization of Torah, not abandonment of it, “I will put My Torah within them” (Jer. 31:33). Nothing in the chapter suggests substitution, cancellation, or transfer to others.

    On sin and righteousness, you are arguing against a position Judaism does not hold. Judaism never claimed that all people are righteous or that repentance is unnecessary. Tanakh teaches moral struggle and accountability, not inherited guilt. Genesis 4:7 explicitly says sin is something a person can master. Ezekiel 18 states repeatedly that guilt is not transferred and that repentance changes a person’s standing. That is the opposite of “original sin.”

    Psalm 51:5, Isaiah 48:8, Genesis 6:5, and Isaiah 64:6 are poetic and prophetic descriptions of human weakness and corruption, not metaphysical doctrines of inherited sin. Tanakh uses strong language to provoke repentance, not to teach that humans are born condemned and incapable without an external savior figure. The same Tanakh commands people to choose good, obey, repent, and live, which would be meaningless if obedience were impossible (Deut. 30:11–14).

    Ezekiel 36 and Isaiah 44 speak about G-d renewing Israel as a nation in the future, after exile, enabling them to keep Torah. This is national restoration language, not individual salvation mechanics, and it explicitly results in greater obedience to commandments, not replacement of them.

    Holiness in Tanakh is not sinlessness. G-d is holy by nature. Humans are commanded to pursue holiness through obedience, repentance, and restraint. That is why sacrifices, repentance, and forgiveness exist at all. Joshua 24 is a warning about G-d’s seriousness, not a denial of forgiveness, something Tanakh affirms repeatedly.

    You keep returning to Jesus-centered conclusions, spiritual houses, and sacrifices. Judaism does not share those premises. From a Jewish standpoint, G-d’s covenant with Israel remains intact, repentance is real, obedience matters, and no man’s spiritual state substitutes for another’s.

    We are not talking past each other because Jews “reject scripture.” We are talking past each other because you are reading Tanakh through a theological system that arose centuries later, and then insisting the Tanakh means what that later system requires it to mean.

  27. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    So, at least you are willing to admit that Israel is not restored.

    Returning to that patch of land is not what God intended .

    The Land is the spiritual state to which Israel has not attained.

    That disqualifies you from teaching the faithful.

  28. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    Your claim directly contradicts Tanakh.

    The prophets do not describe the Land as a metaphor replacing the physical Land. They repeatedly speak of a literal return to the Land, followed by spiritual restoration within it. The order matters.

    G-d says explicitly, “I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all the countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water upon you” (Ezekiel 36:24–25). The land comes first, the spiritual renewal follows. Ezekiel 36, which you yourself quoted earlier, leaves no room for turning the Land into an abstraction.

    Jeremiah says Israel will return to the land G-d gave their fathers (Jer. 30:3; 32:37). Amos says Israel will be planted on their land, never to be uprooted again (Amos 9:14–15). Zechariah describes old men, women, and children once again filling the streets of Jerusalem (Zech. 8:4–8). These are not metaphors for an inner state.

    The Torah itself makes the same distinction. Israel can be sinful in the Land, exiled from the Land, and returned to the Land despite imperfection (Lev. 26; Deut. 30). If being spiritually perfected were a prerequisite, exile would be permanent, which Tanakh explicitly denies.

    Israel’s return to the Land is not the end of the process, it is part of it. Tanakh never teaches that physical return disqualifies Israel, nor that the Land is merely symbolic. That idea is foreign to the text.

    “That disqualifies you from teaching the faithful.”

    I don’t claim authority from you, nor do I teach “the faithful” as you define them. I’m explaining the Jewish reading of Tanakh, as Jews have preserved and understood it continuously. Whether you accept that or not does not grant or revoke its validity. We’re clearly speaking from different theological systems. You are speaking from within a corrupt, idolatrous system based on inherited lies. There are between about 30,000 and 45,000 Christian denominations worldwide. All of them based on falsehoods and none of them have any authority over the Jewish people.

  29. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Israel disobeyed God and forsook His commandments. That is why they do not have a temple. Your approval does not come from me, you are right about that. Your approval comes from God alone. The God your fathers forsook in their hearts, and you follow your fathers. You have your patch of dirt here on earth. God speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. It is going to be his choice who will be there and who will not.

    Clearly those who walk in their flesh, whether ‘christian’ or ‘jews’, will have one interpretation of the scriptures that God wrote to every man, not just the Jews.

    But those who walk in the Spirit of God have God as their guide. A thing that those who walk in the flesh simply can not see.

    We will not see eye to eye if we can not both see with God’s vision.

    So, let God be true and every man a liar.

    Psalms 51:4, Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

  30. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    Doug,

    You keep returning to the same move, redefining disagreement as “walking in the flesh” and agreement with you as “walking in the Spirit.” That isn’t an argument from Tanakh, it’s a way of ending discussion by declaring yourself spiritually validated and others disqualified.

    Tanakh already explains why Israel lost the Temple, and it also explains why Israel was not rejected. Both are stated explicitly. Punishment for disobedience is real. Permanent abandonment is explicitly denied (Lev. 26:44; Jer. 31:35–36). You keep affirming the first while denying the second, even though the same G-d says both.

    Calling the Land a “patch of dirt” does not come from the prophets. Tanakh consistently treats the Land as a real, promised inheritance tied to covenantal responsibility, exile, and return. Spiritual restoration does not replace it, it accompanies it. That is the text’s own structure.

    You appeal to “the Spirit” as a private validator of interpretation. Judaism does not work that way. Torah was given publicly, interpreted publicly, preserved publicly. Personal spiritual certainty does not override the plain meaning of the text or nullify G-d’s explicit promises.

    Psalm 51 does not say G-d rejects repentance or that Israel is cast off forever. It says G-d alone is the judge of sin, which Jews fully agree with. That same G-d repeatedly calls Israel His people even while rebuking them.

    We don’t see eye to eye because we are reading the same verses through fundamentally different systems. You read our Jewish scriptures as a prelude to something else. Jews read it as a covenant that still stands. Just two starkly different theological worlds.

  31. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    It is God alone who qualifies or disqualifies. Since you rest on what is old and ready to vanish away. I choose what is new as declared in the entire book.

    Genesis 3:15, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Revelation 22:11-20, 11, He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Nothing May Be Added

    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    So, simply put we have made different choices. I have not rejected the existence of the Old Testament. I have rejected it as the path of Life from the Death of Sin.

    You obviously have rejected the path that I have chosen.

    Your call.

  32. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    You are quoting Christians writings as if they have ANY significance to me as Jew (or to any Jew). They have less than zero authority to me – in fact, I find them ridiculous in their falsehoods. To put it in the way you understand – it’s not any different to me than if I were to quote Quran or the Book of Mormon to you. Do you get it?

  33. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Ezekiel 18:31, Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Ezekiel 33:13, When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

    Closer to home ?

  34. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Christians are safe from these things which are not empty threats from the Lord of Hosts.

    Or do you have Kabbalah to save you. Will Metatron come and tell what you should do ?

    Is there some numerical calculation to the name of God that only Jewish intellectuals have access to ?

    God condemned these practices in Jeremiah 29:8, KJV, For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.

    “Cause to be dreamed”. Did you see that ? Dream states that are induced by ritual and craft. Things that wiccans understand as astral projection, second sight, altered states of consciousness, lucid dreaming.

    All things that are comdemned by God in Deuteronomy 18, 9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. 14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
    SO HAVE I HEARD EVERY TWIST AS TO WHY GOD HAS SUDDENLY ALLOWED THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL THE FREEDOM TO PRACTICE AN ALLOWABLE AMOUNT OF WITCHCRAFT AND SORCERY.

    AND GOD IS WELL PLEASED WITH THEM ?

  35. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    THE ANSWER IS NO. THAT IS WHY THERE IS NO TEMPLE.

  36. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    As I said when the pot calls the kettle black, God sees hypocrisy.

  37. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Oh! They came back from captivity and they had learned their lesson ?

    And is that why the words, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, is not written upon the sides of any of their nuclear tipped rockets ?

  38. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    God knows a hypocrite when He sees one.

  39. Doug Avatar
    Doug

    Which of the righteous tzadic’s graves have you lain on to receive some spiritual benefit lately ?

    Which of the rebbes have you asked for intercession ?

    Had any interactions with any ibburs or dibuks in a while ?

    Why are you ashamed to tell the world what it is that you do in the sight of God ?

    Oh. He’s not looking when you do these things ?

    Prayed the pulsa de nura recently, or sought a holy child from God to be in your spouse on a friday of your choice.

    Or is that for some other Kabbalist, and not for you ?

    Watched the calendar for the new moon ?

    And the word idolatry comes from your mouth while speaking of any others on the entire face of the whole earth.

    Have you hung a talisman, a mezuza upon your door post to ward off evil spirits ?

    The kissing of rabbits feet and praying to the wind is reserved for you.

    And the word idolatry comes from your mouth.

    And God doesn’t see it ?

    God sees it. That is why there is no temple.

    That is why Israel is not restored.

    That is why you are not qualified to interpret truth of scripture for any one.

    God is not with you while you are with satan.

  40. Gene Shlomovich Avatar

    OK, good luck with all that:)

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