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Why Jews (and Gentiles) should reject the claims of Christianity

May 28, 2014

really-jesusBelow are some of my thoughts on why Christianity’s claims are to be rejected:

  1. That G-d has a special unique “divine Son” that He supernaturally begot through a virgin (mirroring many Roman, Greek and Canaanite demigods and heroes).
  2. That because Israel failed to accept and believe in a particular person as Messiah, even thought only a small percentage of Jews ever come across Jesus in person (and majority lived outside of the Land), G-d set it aside to create a new community called an “Ekklesia”, even though the prophets speak nothing of it. (The same “Ekklesia” would come to claim that it is the “New Israel” and would persecute the Jewish people). There’s a good reason that Paul calls his teachings a “mystery” that was hidden from all generations (Romans 16.25), where as Amos, the prophet of the Tanakh, says “Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7)
  3. That G-d anywhere even alluded in His Torah and anywhere in the Tanakh that His plan of salvation of sin for all mankind is an unjust murder of his “Only Begotten Son”, performed as a “sacrifice” at the hands of the Romans and a few Rome appointed priests. The Bible knows nothing of such a plan!
  4. That the most important thing that G-d wants from us today is “faith in His Son, Jesus”, even though faith (much less faith in a dying and resurrecting man, the “son of man”), so emphasized by Paul and by Protestants, is never pointed to us as method of salvation from sin. Repentance, faithfulness and obedience is how a person is made right and lives right before G-d. Faith in a man (Jesus) for salvation or deliverance from sin is a sin before G-d – we are not to trust in either a royalty or a son of man for our deliverance.
  5. Jesus has proven himself to be a false prophet by his many failed prophecies of his speedy return.

Has G-d not already warned us about it? Yes, He certainly did.

G-d has clearly warned us about placing our trust into the hands of human benefactors (regardless of how exalted they are claimed to be):

Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.” (Psalm 146:3)

Christianity and its view of Jews

Christianity has painted the Jewish people as obstinate and blind, going from error to error, “hardhearted to the Gospel”, children of Satan, and much worse. We know full well the consequences of such views.  It’s a miracle of G-d that the Jewish people are still vibrant and very much alive, with their faculties undulled and their love of life undiminished, that most of us didn’t internalize the hatred poured out on us but remained proud of our heritage. The Jewish community does not claim to be perfect and indeed, some of us are closed and ghettoized (no doubt a lingering effect of persecution and suffering in the galut/exile). But unlike virtually ALL other religions, debate is a healthy part of Judaism and is encouraged. Talmud is a perfect example of just that. On the other hand, I can’t think of more coercive effect than one that religions such as Christianity (and the Messianic movement, by extension) and Islam had on their adherents and do to this day, threatening them with hellfires for non-belief in a particular set of doctrines and not too long ago (and in some places still), torture and execution. If a Messianic Jew or a Gentile Christian today were to publicly and openly reject the divinity of Jesus, his virgin birth, the doctrine of Trinity, etc, he risks being declared a heretic, unregenerate and unsaved. He risks being shunned, and even if tolerated by some, few if any will allow him to work in their “ministries”. One Messianic Jew I know and still respect called it a “tyranny of doctrine”.

More importantly, Jews refused to bow their knee to another god, a god their forefathers knew not. This refusal to join the nations has always cost my people dearly, and their refusal to join the nations’ embrace of Jesus as “lord and savior” is more of the continuation of the same.

Yes, as I already noted, Jewish people are not perfect and neither are our leaders – you don’t have to look far to find faults, either real or, more likely, greatly exaggerated by our enemies and detractors who fail to look in the mirror. However, the fact remains is that any Jew who has ever placed his trust in that “son of man”, like in any other foreign god his ancestors knew not, and didn’t repent had invariably cut off both himself AND all his progeny from the people of Israel and from the G-d of Israel. Their descendants are all intermarried, assimilated and faded away. Likewise, a Jew who had shown contempt for and has rejected the G-d-given authority of the Jewish leaders (I am not saying that any particular Jewish leader has that authority today, but collectively) suffered the consequences. As it says, “Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the L-RD your G-d is to be put to death. All the people will hear and be afraid, and will not be contemptuous again.” (Deuteronomy 17:12-13)

56 Comments leave one →
  1. June 10, 2014 7:50 pm

    The entire list is refuted with this simple prophesy. If you take the names from Adam to Noah and interpret them, they form a sentence.
    Adam “man”
    Seth “appointed” (Gen 4:25)
    Enosh “mortal” (Strong’s 605)
    Kenan “chant/dirge” (Strong’s 6969)
    Mahalalel “Praise of God” (Strong’s 4111)
    Jared “come down” (Strong’s 3381)
    Enoch “teaching” (Strong’s 2596)
    Methuselah “his death shall bring” (Strong’s 4192+7971)
    Lamech “lamenting” (maybe 3928 “disciples”, or of the same origin as the Latin “lament”, possibly “pwerful” or “poor/lowly”
    Noah “rest”
    “Man appointed mortal dirge [the] praise of God [shall] come down teaching [that] his death shall bring the poor rest.”
    That sounds like the message that Yeshua preached, my friend.
    Your problem seems to be the idea that if something is singular, it can’t be plural and vice versa. That’s answered by the two becoming one flesh (a baby) in the union of man and woman. We are body. We are spirit. How is it possible that we are both? How is it that we can assemble and be one and be divided and become many again? The question that comes of the Shema is this, one in what? Unified how? If He is one in everything, He can’t have a voice. There would be no input or output, because anything going in or out would mean that his oneness nature is compromised. You can’t incorporate a new part to an existing whole. And how can both male and female be created in a single image? I’ll tell you how. Rather, I’ll let this guy tell you how:
    The Almighty is indescribable. The moment you think you understand, He will send something to confound you. Don’t be so arrogant that you can’t be taught by the Creator of the universe.

  2. June 10, 2014 9:00 pm

    “The entire list is refuted with this simple prophesy. If you take the names from Adam to Noah and interpret them, they form a sentence.”

    Brian, you’ve proved it! I think it’s safe to shut down this blog.

    I have just one simple comment: you wrote that Kenan (the son of Enosh) means “chant/dirge” (because the composer of your list really wished it did), but the actual name as it appears in the context actually means, according to Strong’s 7018, “possession”. In fact, Strong’s 6969 that you quoted refers not to Kenan son of Enosh, but to another unrelated word altogether, “qonen”, one that appears in Ezekiel (for example) but not in Genesis. It’s also spelled very differently in Hebrew and has absolutely nothing to do with the person of Kenan son of Enosh. Oops.

    So, now, is my list still refuted by your “simple prophecy”? Will you be willing to apologize for your mistake? I will be waiting, Brian.

    “Don’t be so arrogant that you can’t be taught by the Creator of the universe.”

    Brian… let’s see if you can be taught.

  3. June 11, 2014 10:59 am

    Have you ever seen anyone rock climb? The motivation to keep from falling will allow the smallest nub on the rock to be an anchor.

    Let’s assume that the two words are completely unrelated. I don’t believe that is a safe assumption because of the nature of language. I have studied quite a bit about the migrations of words in English. But the nature of the statement is not changed:
    “Man appointed mortal [x] praise of God [shall] come down teaching [that] his death shall bring the poor rest.”

    The message is still clear. Our minds can easily fill in the gap.

    Even if you replace it with “possession”, it makes sense. We’re appointed a mortal possession. Our lives are mortal, and we possess them. Looks like that bit of rock has a smooth surface. Grasp at another straw.

    I don’t have a problem apologizing for my mistakes. I have substantially changed quite a few times in my life. I used to think that Jesus did away with Judaism. Now I see that Yeshua did no such thing. He commended the Pharisees for their strict adherence to the law, even setting them up as a standard, but he condemned them for their lack of compassion. So I now eat kosher and live my life according to the Torah as best I can. However, if someone was able to prove to me that my understanding of those passages that convinced me were interpreted wrongly in my head, I would change again. In fact, it would be easy for me to go back, because it’s in my family culture. An appeal to my need for rejecting my pride is not necessary. I know well that I can make errors in reason.

    I debate a lot. I actually find it to be a fun activity. It helps me to clarify my positions, and I love to condemn a false idea, even when I formerly held to it. In all my years of debating, I’ve discovered something about our own personal biases, particularly confirmation bias. We tend to prove what we already believe to be true in our minds. And I believe Paul, the man sent of the apostles of Yeshua to the Romans, makes clear why this happens. “Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey?” (Ro. 6:16) Even if you reject the authority of Paul, you can’t reject the truth of that statement. If you subject yourself to smoking, you become a slave to smoking. If you subject yourself to pork, you become slave to pork. Some slave masters are easier than others. Their hold is not as strong as others. You’ve brought yourself under the banner of anti-Christ, and he is jealous. He will not let you go easily. It may take a little effort on your part, but I believe we can help you out of this pit. Let me throw you a rope.

  4. June 11, 2014 11:14 am

    Brian, there’s not need to preach Jesus to me. I know all about him (he’s no infinite G-d and ALL that we know about him is in the NT). You can read what I have posted on this blog. However, I pointed out a glaring problem with your “prophecy”. This one just ONE problem that I pointed out and there are many others which make your list nonsensical.

    “I know well that I can make errors in reason.”

    So, please be a mench, and admit that you have made just such an error in your list, as I have pointed out to you. Then I’ll know that you are a true partner in this conversation, instead of a “hit and run” one.

    ““Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey?” (Ro. 6:16) Even if you reject the authority of Paul, you can’t reject the truth of that statement. ”

    If you are a “slave to Jesus” (as Christians consider themselves), than you too are a slave. If Jesus is an idol (which Jews believe that he is) and not G-d (this too should be obvious, since Jesus was a man and G-d is not a man), then you are a slave to an idol.

    “You’ve brought yourself under the banner of anti-Christ, and he is jealous. He will not let you go easily.”

    I am a Jew, and the only banner I am want to under is the banner of the G-d of Israel. Christianity has nothing to give to someone like me, but much to take away.

  5. June 11, 2014 11:55 am

    If you want me to admit error, feel free to try to convince me of it. I like talking to you, and I have subscribed to your blog. I hope this won’t be a solitary interaction.

    I am, indeed, a slave of Christ. But you’ll notice that Yeshua called his slaves “friends” as they followed him for a while.

    There’s a fantastic excerpt in Exodus 24:9-11. The 70 elders actually saw the One who is not a man, and they were not slain. While they were there, the glory was not. You’ll see a couple verses later that when Moshe went up again, it was at that time that the glory fell. What did the elders see? Did they see a blob of protoplasm? Did they see a glowing elk-like form. They saw the appearance of a man, with feet and hands. And this description of form is found in many places in scripture. It’s not because He is in our image. To the contrary, we are in His.

    And the first link in my first comment was left unaddressed. How can both male and female be created in His image? At the same time?! If the Creator is an eternal family, it just makes sense. Not only were male and female created in that image, but children as well. And we can learn from the Ex. 24 glory that He can reveal Himself to us in any way He darn well pleases – hiding parts of Himself from view. There’s no doubt that mystery surrounds every aspect of the nature of the Divine. I an my children are one… one family.

  6. June 11, 2014 12:04 pm

    “If you want me to admit error, feel free to try to convince me of it. ”

    I already did just that in my first reply, which I supported by evidence. So, Brian, the “Yes, I was wrong” ball is in your court.

    Let’s get over this hurdle first, before we move on to something else. (Other commenters to my blog are aware of my standard for honest dialog).

  7. June 11, 2014 1:07 pm

    I freely admit that there was some wiggle room on the interpretations of those names. I will not say that it was an improper interpretation of Kenan, because I’m convinced that the word I pointed to is just as likely to be the proper interpretation. We can disagree without either of us being liars. I’m assuming here that your definition of “lie” is the same as mine. If you speak falsely, it is only a lie if you have the intent to deceive. Otherwise, it’s just speaking falsely or being wrong about something. I have no plan to pull the wool over your eyes. If you include anything false as a lie, then I admit to potentially lying, but I’m not sure as of yet, because I haven’t been convinced. So I repeat, if you feel I’m in error, you can feel free to try again to convince me of it. If that was the end all of your evidence, I don’t expect you will.

    In addition to the point by Paul that we are subject to those we serve, Yeshua points to Isaiah 29 and says that even when you are shown something plainly, you cannot see it because it is hidden from you:
    For the LORD has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep, He has shut your eyes, the prophets ; And He has covered your heads, the seers. 11 The entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when they give it to the one who is literate , saying, “Please read this,” he will say, “I cannot , for it is sealed.” 12 Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate , saying, “Please read this.” And he will say, “I cannot read .”

    So it’s not up to me to convince you of this stuff. It’s up to the L-rd to open your eyes to see. May I not turn the curse of blindness on myself by pointing this out to you.

    Now that that topic is lifeless, let me ask you a question. What is the purpose of Israel? Why were they chosen from among the nations? Why are they still in favor? What is the job they have to do?

  8. June 11, 2014 1:20 pm

    “I will not say that it was an improper interpretation of Kenan, because I’m convinced that the word I pointed to is just as likely to be the proper interpretation.”

    Brian, you can be convinced, but you are not entitled to your own facts. The words you used to support your “prophecy” (or more likely, the original author of the list) are completely incompatible with each other. I didn’t accuse you of lying but of being in error, and honesty in dialog requires one to at least admit being wrong, which you clearly are in this case. Admitely, I understand that the Ancient Hebrew is not your expertise, but yet you didn’t hesitate to present this “evidence” to me as “fact”.

    If you are not willing to do that, to admit that these basic easily verifiable facts were wrong, how can we dialog further? We will be talking past each other.

    “What is the purpose of Israel? Why were they chosen from among the nations? Why are they still in favor? What is the job they have to do?”

    Are you asking because you really want to know?

  9. June 11, 2014 2:22 pm

    Let’s see if I can say it in a way that will satisfy you. I don’t think that the evidence of the prophesy is so irrefutable that all doubt is removed by any honest onlooker. You have a problem with a name on the list. I can accept that. I had a similar problem with the name as I researched it, and I admit that I trusted someone else’s interpretation on the name over the obvious Strong’s one. A little bit of bias shining through. I admit that. But I don’t know if you can see the same bias in yourself. I hope you can see that you’re as much deciding to believe your way as I am deciding to believe mine. I don’t believe we are talking past each other at all on this. We both know each other’s positions. We just disagree with each other. And I’m ready to move on from this one point. I acknowledge that you rejected it on what I consider to be feeble grounds. You believe it’s solid. We have chosen; we can move on.

    Am I asking because I want to know? No! I aim to instruct.

    Israel was to be a light to the nations. (Isaiah 49) They were to bring Yeshua to the whole earth – to be the shining light – the dwelling place of the ruler of the universe. Isa. 42:6-9 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness. “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.”

    But read on, they didn’t do what they were supposed to do:
    “Hear, you deaf; look, you blind, and see! Who is blind but my servant, and deaf like the messenger I send? Who is blind like the one committed to me, blind like the servant of the LORD? You have seen many things, but have paid no attention; your ears are open, but you hear nothing.” It pleased the LORD for the sake of his righteousness to make his law great and glorious. … For they would not follow his ways; they did not obey his law. So he poured out on them his burning anger, the violence of war. It enveloped them in flames, yet they did not understand; it consumed them, but they did not take it to heart.

    And when did this rejection happen – the one that is prophesied all over the Tanak? In 70AD – right after Yeshua was rejected! But they have been gathered together again? Why? Because the time of jealousy is over (Ro. 11:11). The time of the Gentiles is coming to a close (Luke 21:24). They have rejected the commands of the L-rd and will, therefore, be rejected again. As the Christian churches falter and bleed out, Jews are becoming strong and energized. “They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” (Zech. 12:10) They will look upon “Me” whom they have pierced. Firstborn son… It just makes sense, man.

    The church will be rejected, but only those who accept Yeshua will find salvation. Yeshua is salvation. He’s not a stinking idol – a man on a crucifix. He’s the one of whom the voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased” (2 Peter 1:16-18). I suppose you can accuse Peter of being a false witness. But there are many lines of evidence that point in the same direction. Matthew and John would have to also be diluted in the same way. Paul saw a false vision on the road, and the miracles would have to have been faked somehow. We might imagine that the stories were made up whole cloth way back when, but studies of the way the message spread, who said what about it, and all things considered together, the more reasonable answer is that you’re rejecting the L-rd when you reject Yeshua.

    But be aware that I’m not promoting the Jesus of Catholicism. Their Jesus did away with the commands of G-d. My Yeshua is self-consistent. He upholds the Torah (Ro. 3) and teaches others to do the same (Mt. 5:17-19).

    Have you read these works?
    Epistle of Barnabas
    Dialogue between Justin Martyr and Trypho

  10. June 11, 2014 3:56 pm

    Brian, in the future, please do two things for me: 1) limit the comments in length (I just don’t have the time read comments longer than my posts, with my other commitments) and 2) limit the comments to the topic of the post or to something I wrote in the comments in reply.

    I don’t need to be instructed or sermonized on Christianity. If I wanted more of that, I would go to church. I’ve exited Christianity, with which I am more than familiar. Everything you wrote above I’ve already heard or read many times over, year after year of being a Christian for 20 years since my late teens, and way more beyond that. If you have an objection to what I wrote in the post or comments, please state it and I will address it. Deal?

  11. June 11, 2014 4:07 pm

    I’m not really in a position to argue with your proposition. It is your page, not mine. So if I respond, I will try to do it as you have requested.

    The topic of the post is, “Why Jews and Gentiles should reject the claims of Christianity”. My responses have all been in regard to that. The Jews were rejected because they rejected Christ. This very thing was prophesied by Yeshua when he was sitting down next to the temple. It was in his parables about the vine dressers, etc. Even Barnabas and Trypho were on topic. I can’t see how it’s off topic, so you may have to instruct me.

  12. June 11, 2014 10:34 pm

    “The Jews were rejected because they rejected Christ.”

    Brian… you should inform G-d of that. I guess you know something that G-d doesn’t.

    “For the L-RD will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance.” (Psalm 94:14)

    “This is what the L-RD says: ‘If I have not made my covenant with day and night and established the laws of heaven and earth, then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.'” (Jeremiah 33:25-26)

    G-d will reject neither Israel nor will he reject David’s descendant, the true messianic king. That king will not be a god sent from Heaven, but “chosen” to rule over Israel.

    Now that we read what G-d thinks about rejecting Israel, go fetch me something about the Church getting this promise from G-d.

  13. June 13, 2014 10:32 am

    Reject wasn’t a good word to use. They were disciplined. But all the prophesies say that He will remember them and bring them back. The point was that the scattering happened in 70AD, right after their crimes against Yeshua. The return to the land happened just after the Germans (home of Martin Luther, no less) did horrible things to the Jews. There’s a cause / effect going on, was my point.

  14. June 13, 2014 10:49 am

    “Reject wasn’t a good word to use.”

    It’s not just the wrong word you used – there’s something deeper here that we need to explore, Brian. I hope we can find out what it is.

    “They were disciplined.”

    What were they disciplined for? Before one can be disciplined, there has to be a warning not to do something. Can you find me in the Hebrew Scriptures a warning that Jews should have heeded when they refused to accept Jesus’ claims or to worship him as god?

    Also, keep in mind the following things: only a small faction of Jews actually lived in the Roman province of Judea – the rest were spread out over the Roman Empire, Asia Minor, Persia and beyond. Most Jews living at the time never heard of Jesus and certainly never seen him to make a decision about him. The Temple priests were corrupt, installed by the Romans, the occupying power, and thus were not representatives of the Jewish people.

    “There’s a cause / effect going on, was my point.”

    Are you sure about that? When Christians get persecuted, say by Muslims, is there cause and effect (did the Christians do something to deserve it), or only causeless effect in their case (but not with Jews)?

    When Egyptians enslaved Jews, for what sin did this happen?

  15. June 13, 2014 12:07 pm

    I confessed to you that I like to debate important topics. I’ve learned from you, and I appreciate that you’ve given me the opportunity. But this last question reminds me of a couple other topics I often discuss with people.

    I just watched a “What Would You Do?” clip of a kissing gay couple. The Christians at the table watching the display were disgusted and said so. The folks who were irritated by the people being irritated said so. Both explained why. “It’s what I believe.” Solid logic there. And it’s absolutely true, too. Why don’t they accept that? Why do they accept that? It wasn’t based in reason or evidence. It was a decision they made. Much like your decision to reject the books of Peter and John, it was their starting points – their axioms that determined their reactions.

    I also discuss the origin of mankind with a whole slew of people. I point to genealogies from Ireland, Iceland, and elsewhere that go back to Noah through Japheth, and yet they reject that evidence and hold tight to the hominid fossils and the popularity of the ToE. Why do they reject one source and accept another? They even ask Creationists to show scientists publishing in peer reviewed journals. In other words, if you can get your religious dogma – the evidence you’ve chosen to believe into our biased, anti-religious journals, we will accept your claims. Yet, that’s not at all true. The Creationists have gotten into their journals. They wouldn’t accept the evidence at that point, because history shows that they haven’t accepted that evidence. They would just find another excuse to reject it.

    So, yes, I could find passages in the Tanak that show that the rejection of Yeshua would lead to the dispersal of the Jews (i.e. Dan. 9:26), but what’s the point? You have chosen your position, and you want Yeshua to be a liar. What’s more, that’s what the entire selection of scriptures from that time was dedicated to. If their evidence didn’t work, I don’t think mine will. I will provide only the things I think might help to open your eyes. Yelling and pointing to a blind man will not help him to see. It needs to be new and powerful evidence – prompted by the Spirit of G-d – to lead unto your conviction and conversion. I’ll be praying for you, my man.

  16. June 13, 2014 12:21 pm

    ” But this last question reminds me of a couple other topics I often discuss with people.”

    Brian, my point is that people make assumptions. Christians for the last two thousand years made an assumption that G-d rejected Jews and that He did so because they rejected Jesus. As a result of their assumptions and because the authors of NT demonized the Jewish people, Christians have committed horrible, unspeakable crimes against Jews. After all, how can one deal with people who’s father is Satan himself, according to the Gospel of John? The point of my blog is to prove Christian assumptions wrong, especially and primarily to Jews who still find themselves in Christianity, cut off from Israel and Israel’s G-d.

    “I’ll be praying for you, my man.”

    As long as you are not praying to Jesus (a demigod) on my behalf and not praying for me to go back to worship him, a man and a mere creature as god:)

  17. June 13, 2014 12:30 pm

    ” Solid logic there. And it’s absolutely true, too. Why don’t they accept that? ”

    You are comparing apples and oranges. Think about this: a Jew from the time of Moses was warned that G-d is not a man and that there’s only one G-d, and there’s nothing comparable to him. G-d has also warned Jews that they saw no shape to Him whatsoever, so they should not create idols that look like a man or woman, or any creature.

    Christianity comes along and insists to Jews that this Jewish guy down the street is G-d. It further insists that this now dead guy, a man who is no longer around (and most Jews have never even seen him to begin with) now deserves to be worshiped alongside the same G-d that Jews already worshiped for thousand of years, the self-described “jealous” G-d for whom idolatry is the worst sin possible. So, now Jews are being asked to worship two different persons (one of whom was a man who was born, who died, and who is claimed by his followers to be resurrected and gone away into heaven), G-d the Father and “G-d the Son”, yet Christians insists that the two are not two, but actually one.

    Furthermore, the professed followers of Jesus persecuted and murdered Jews for the last two thousands years, with Christian hatred of Jews and view of them as demonic inspiring the Holocaust itself. Jesus himself asked: can a good tree bear a bad fruit? What is the answer then when it comes to the movement founded on his persona?

    If you are looking for “solid logic” here, please think about my words above to see if they are logical. Jews reject Jesus because he’s an idol of the nations, a false god.

  18. June 13, 2014 1:16 pm

    Persecution: I apologize for the persecution through the centuries. I reject the logic that led to it, and I hope for a better future.

    Demi-god: Yeshua is not Percy Jackson. He was always in existence (according to John 1, 1 John 1, and other places). He was incarnated.

    Body of the Father: you seemed to miss two of my prior points. 1. G-d is described as having hands and feet in Genesis. We also know He has a face. And if you read between the lines, you can gather even more. He is not a man, but He is not formless either. We are in his image – meaning we look like Him. 2. Two can be one. It really just depends on what you’re comparing. Many buildings, one city. Many cells, one body. But those are many into one. You can get much smaller. Guitar player, drummer, and keyboard player make a band. Three books make a trilogy. Twins. When you divide something and say there’s two, there have to be differences. When you say there are differences, the obvious implication is that there are similarities. What makes something two instead of one? It really depends on your interpretation. Have you ever seen a video of a mold joining to make a mushroom? It’s beautiful. One blob. Another blob. Before you know it, one blob again, just slightly bigger. Categories and selections. It’s all in how to define your words. How are G-d the Father and Yeshua unified? It’s obvious how they are distinct if you can hear a voice from heaven, one praying to the other. But how are they the same? If you are starting with the assumption that He was just another man, what you’re saying makes sense. If you are starting from 1 John, the conclusion is far different.

    So, as I said in my last message, this is a matter of axioms, not evidence.

    And my axioms aren’t that Moshe was true. I wasn’t any more there to see the miracles of Egypt than I was there to see the miracles of Yeshua. And Moshe has a lot of similarities to Mohammad. I could list them out for you if you want. But I don’t know if I want to. I, too, believe that Moses was a righteous prophet of God, so I’m not willing to make the mistakes of Miriam and Aaron by speaking ill of the guy. But it, nevertheless, was not my starting point. I start with folks like Don Piper, who was dead for 90 minutes, had a Baptist pastor pray for him and he came back to life. Starting there, you go back to Jesus. Starting with Jesus, you go to Matthew. Reading Matthew, you see Yeshua. And then you admire Moshe. I can’t convince you using that train of logic, because you got on the train while it was traveling the opposite direction.

    That said, what evidence do you have that the description of our Maker as described by Moses was accurate? I can’t argue you in or out of anything when your starting point is blind faith. Do you have evidence for what you believe?

  19. June 13, 2014 2:17 pm

    I know you like short replies, but this is a summary statement of my last message. I’m attempting to shorten what I wrote.

    There are two hymns to contrast:
    1. “Oh How I Love Jesus”
    2. “How Great Thou Art”

    You can’t argue with the person singing song 1. There’s no logic there. It’s all emotional attraction. You can argue with the man who sings song 2, because it’s all based in sensory input. Are your arguments based on evidence or emotional appeal?

  20. June 13, 2014 2:58 pm

    “Do you have evidence for what you believe?”

    Yes, I do – the Jewish people are my evidence. The survival of the Jewish people and G-d’s provision for them. The fact that my people collectivally all witnessed the events described in the Bible, and not just small groups of individuals as with Jesus, and collectively carried on that memory (including knowing who the priests are to this day), both through the Bible they wrote and as a people.

    Besides, I don’t have to prove to you that Moses existed – you already believe that he did and even believe in the Biblical events. So, I am not going to pretend you are an atheist and waste my time proving these things to you. You already believe in Moses, but I don’t believe in your god Jesus. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

  21. June 13, 2014 4:43 pm

    That the Jewish people are still around is a great evidence. I wasn’t looking for things to bolster my faith in Moses. I was looking for the evidence that Moses is true and Yeshua is false. To me, it seems your standard for evidence is not equal for the two of them. There’s a large number of people who saw what Moses did, and there’s a large number of people who saw what Yeshua did (5,000 at one miracle alone). And how we know that they both did what they did is equal. You have scripture that could have been (but wasn’t likely to have been) forged by someone down the line (i.e. King David and Paul). And what we accept about that is a matter of faith more than it is of evidence. I don’t see that your one evidence is sufficient to reject Yeshua if you’re going to accept Moses.

    Two evidences that Yeshua hit the mark.
    1. Abraham set to sacrifice his “only son” to prove his faith.
    2. Yeshua fulfilled most of the feasts before He ascended to heaven. The prophesies show that He will fulfill the rest when He returns in glory. Have you been to a Messianic Passover seder? The symbols are all there, and Yeshua claimed that He was the Passover. What’s more, in Luke, He said that He wouldn’t eat it again until He comes into his Kingdom (Lu 22:16) Why? I don’t know. Maybe because it’s the season of exile.
    ( is an example if you’ve never been exposed to this)

  22. June 13, 2014 4:58 pm

    “I don’t see that your one evidence is sufficient to reject Yeshua if you’re going to accept Moses.”

    There’s a LOT more. The false prophecies, the taking Biblical prophecies and texts out of context by NT authors to “prove Jesus”, the nonsensical genealogies. There’s so, so much, and I covered some of it already on this blog, so I am not going to repeat myself in comments.

    “Two evidences that Yeshua hit the mark.
    1. Abraham set to sacrifice his “only son” to prove his faith.”

    The NT doesn’t even use this claim to support Jesus. To equate what Abraham did with Jesus betrays the fundamental misunderstanding of why G-d asked Abraham to do it, why G-d stopped it, what was the lesson behind it, etc. Also, G-d doesn’t have “G-d the Son” – He alone is G-d. However, as far as human sons go, the people of Israel collectively is his son.

    “and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'” (Exodus 4:23)

    “2. Yeshua fulfilled most of the feasts before He ascended to heaven. ”

    The NT authors fulfilled the feasts for Jesus (even NT doesn’t claim it, it’s a later Church interpretation of NT) and invented other stories about him (including his virginal birth, the maggi and the works).

  23. June 13, 2014 5:04 pm

    The point of my last several replies was that you have a standard of evidence for what you already believe and a completely different standard of evidence for what you have decided to reject. You didn’t address that point, you didn’t address the evidence I presented with that point in mind, and you didn’t use any evidence in what you you said about my evidence. So again, we’re singing, “Oh How I love Jesus”.

  24. June 14, 2014 10:16 pm

    “The point of my last several replies was that you have a standard of evidence for what you already believe and a completely different standard of evidence for what you have decided to reject. ”

    Brian… I don’t wish to engage in pedantic back and fourth. As you made clear to me from the get go – you are here to “teach” me about Jesus. I am not interested in that. When you decide to learn about why I set this blog up, you can browse through my blog where I already laid out the reasons why I rejected the religion of Jesus-worship in which I was engaged in for 20 years of my life.

  25. June 17, 2014 10:28 am

    In all the posts I read on your blog, I didn’t see anything worth leaving Jesus about.

  26. June 17, 2014 10:59 am

    “In all the posts I read on your blog, I didn’t see anything worth leaving Jesus about.”

    Brian… you may not find it worthwhile, but I have received emails from many people and have even met with some folks who live in my state one-on-one who did find the information that I present on my blog (which is certainly nothing new or original, but something that the Bible and the Jewish people have been saying for thousands of years) “worth leaving Jesus”, and any other idolatry, behind. For some committed but open-minded Christians, at least, it is eye-opening – it gets them thinking.

    Idolatry, which is directing your obedience, allegiance, worship, seeking of forgiveness and salvation, and prayers to a creature, is worth leaving Jesus. However, if you want to continue worshiping Jesus, it’s your business. There are billions of other people around the world who adore him and consider him a deity. My primary audience is Jews trapped in Christianity, cut off from their G-d and from their people.

  27. June 17, 2014 12:01 pm

    Since you’re not willing to learn from me, can I learn something from you?

    In your view, what’s the purpose of animal sacrifice?

  28. June 17, 2014 12:15 pm

    “In your view, what’s the purpose of animal sacrifice?”

    There are many (including thanksgiving and impurity, which is not sin). But one of them was to provide atonement for people who wished to enter the Temple to worship G-d.

    However, this is what G-d says:

    “Indeed, when I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I didn’t speak or command them about burnt offering and sacrifice, but I did give them this command: ‘Obey me and I’ll be your God, and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways that I command you so it will go well for you.'” (Jeremiah 7:22-23)

    The point is that sacrifices were just a way to express one’s worship for G-d and one’s repentance (and to facilitate ritual purity), and not that G-d REQUIRED SACRIFICES to forgive people from sin as Christians wrongly imagine – He forgives people who repent, even if they do nothing else (read how G-d instantly forgave David after he repented).

    “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire– but my ears you have opened — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.” (Psalm 40:6)

  29. June 17, 2014 12:26 pm

    Was that an excuse for animal sacrifice or an explanation of it? If it’s just a matter of sacrifice, the tithe would be sufficient. Why all the blood and guts?

  30. June 17, 2014 12:41 pm

    “Was that an excuse for animal sacrifice or an explanation of it? If it’s just a matter of sacrifice, the tithe would be sufficient. Why all the blood and guts?”

    It’s an expression of worship. In fact, a poor man who couldn’t afford to buy an animal could bring fine flour instead for a sin sacrifice, which speaks volumes of “blood” being a requirement.

    “If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering. They must not put olive oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering.” (Leviticus 5:11)

    So, flour instead of blood for sin offering….

    However, if G-d, as the prophets quoted Him, didn’t really desire, require or command animal sacrifices, why did He incorporate them into Israelite worship? Some Jewish authorities, like Rambam, hold that although G-d didn’t desire sacrifices at all, He accommodated them as man’s expression of worship that already existed in most human cultures even well before Jews appeared on the scene.

    Rambam in his Guide for the Perplexed says this:

    “G-d does not choose to change man’s nature with a miracle…. As sacrificial worship is not a primary intention… only one Temple has been ordained… and in no other place is it allowed to sacrifice… to limit such worship within bounds that G-d did not deem it necessary to abolish it…. because of this the prophets often declared that the object of sacrifices is not very essential and that G-d can dispense with them…. (Guide 3:32)

  31. June 17, 2014 1:10 pm

    If I hear you right, you think that blood sacrifice was an adaptation from pagan worship?

    Did the account of Cain and Abel play a part?

  32. June 17, 2014 1:19 pm

    “If I hear you right, you think that blood sacrifice was an adaptation from pagan worship?”

    No, the pagan sacrificial worship itself was an adoption of preexisting sacrifices (e.g. Abel, Noah, etc.), which G-d didn’t command either. I think that a “sacrifice” was a natural way to give back to G-d (who has everything) something of yourself, in thanksgiving. This is probably why it was so universal.

    One more thing from the Hebrew scriptures:

    “But Samuel replied: “Does the L-RD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the L-RD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.” (1 Samuel 15:22)

    “For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.” (Hosea 6:6)

    But people imagined that a blood sacrifice was the chief thing that would make them right before G-d. So G-d over and over said “No”, “you are doing it wrong”, it’s not really what He wanted from people. He didn’t desire blood. What He wanted was to obey Him, which included obeying His command not to have any other “gods” before Him, which is the very first of the Ten Commandments.

  33. June 17, 2014 1:26 pm

    Ok. I might accept your answer, that G-d doesn’t like sacrifices, but I’ve read the books of Moshe. I’ve studied them. I know that many, many consequences for sin and impurity included the death of an animal and the sprinkling of blood on the altar. I agree that it’s not the only way to be forgiven of sin. I believe that He wants obedience far more than a dead animal. My question is why was the death of an animal commanded in the first place?

  34. June 17, 2014 1:41 pm

    “My question is why was the death of an animal commanded in the first place?”

    As I said, it’s not actually categorically commanded – one can simply bring flour if one can’t afford an animal. However, as far as death goes, how else are you going to offer an animal as a sacrifice? But even here there are exceptions – the death of an animal not always required in a sacrifice. For example, the goat of Azazel was simply let go into the wilderness, ceremonially carrying away Israel’s sins (goats, unlike sheep, are pretty good at living in the wild).

  35. June 17, 2014 1:57 pm

    We’ve gone back and forth on this one too many times. Either you aren’t understanding my question or I’m not understanding your answers. Or you don’t have an answer. I get this question from atheists all the time.

    I ran across this today, and I believe we can finish this discussion with a point of agreement. The Jews will always be around. They will always be the object of G-d’s affection.

    Jer. 31 “I am as likely to reject my people Israel as I am to do away with the laws of nature! Just as the heavens cannot be measured and the foundation of the earth cannot be explored, so I will not consider casting them away forever for their sins. I, the LORD, have spoken!
    Psalm 89 But I will never stop loving him, nor let my promise to him fail. No, I will not break my covenant; I will not take back a single word I said. I have sworn an oath to David, and in my holiness I cannot lie: His dynasty will go on forever; his throne is as secure as the sun, as eternal as the moon, my faithful witness in the sky!”

    Curses on anyone who rejects Israel! Amen.

  36. June 17, 2014 2:20 pm

    “We’ve gone back and forth on this one too many times. Either you aren’t understanding my question or I’m not understanding your answers. Or you don’t have an answer. I get this question from atheists all the time.”

    You are giving up too soon. I think I am being quite clear in my responses and answered most of your questions. Perhaps the Christian emphasis on “death” is what confuses the issue, since where does the Bible talk about the “death of an animal” as being a key to anything?

    I think that blood represented a sustenance that supported life (Leviticus 17:14) – just as flour coming from a plant played the exact same role in a sin offering, to facilitate atonement. It was one of many ways to facilitate attonment – even money was used for that purpose:

    “…Receive the atonement money from the Israelites and use it for the service of the tent of meeting. It will be a memorial for the Israelites before the L-rd, making atonement for your lives” (from Exodus 30:11-16)

    Do you see what I mean? Atonement with one’s money!

    “Curses on anyone who rejects Israel! Amen.”

    Amen, but I’d even settle for just leaving Jews alone:)

  37. Ben Marquez permalink
    June 18, 2014 2:29 am

    Wow! Fellas. Quite the debate. If I were looking for faith in religion I must admit that neither of you would lead me there. Being Jewish and having been where you both are today, the argument you present would only either confuse me or want me to quit looking. I think it would do you both good to read Jer. 31:34. You see confusion sets in when each one proclaims that he is right everyone else is in error. Christianity as well as Judaism is divided against itself both having many doctrines, customs and traditions that lead astray rather than edify and encourage those seeking Hashems truths. Deception is running rampant these days and men everywhere are still “lost” sheep wanting to hear the voice of truth.

  38. June 18, 2014 7:11 am

    Ben, thanks for stopping by. You claim to be a neutral party, but you are a Hebrew Roots Christian (I have seen your comments on messianic blogs). The message of my blog is simple – worshiping anything other than G-d, and that includes Jesus, is idolatry. Whether you are a Jew or Gentile, makes no difference – idolatry is wrong for everyone. Care to comment on that?

  39. Ben Marquez permalink
    June 18, 2014 3:59 pm

    Gene,I believe you mistake me for another that might have my name. I agree with you on your comment ” to worship anything or anyone other than G-D including the man Jesus, is idolatry. The point of my post was as an objective reader ( listener ) such as someone seeking faith in religion. I know what I believe and it isn’t faith in either Christianity’s Jesus or Judaism’s Yeshua. I stand firm on this Torah statement, ” Shema Yisreal Elohenu Adonai echad “. Duet. 6:4. I hope that clarifies my comment and answers your question.

  40. David permalink
    June 18, 2014 4:08 pm


    I know I’m butting in, but I would like to say that, from my perspective, your answers regarding sacrifices are very clear.

    I obviously don’t speak for Brian, but maybe behind his question, is another question, namely, why are the sacrifices, as laid out in Leviticus, so detailed and intricate if there merely a kind of concession?

    Also, and please correct me if I’m wrong here, according to tradition, are not the seventy bull offerings performed during Sukkot, sacrifices on behalf of the nations? Nations who, presumably, would have no idea for the most part that this is even being done on their behalf? What is the purpose of these sacrifices in your opinion?

    Additionally, in Psalm 51, David says on the one hand, “you don’t desire sacrifice or I would bring it, you will not be pleased with a burnt offerings. The sacrifices of G-d are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart you will not despise…” (vs. 16-17)…

    But David then goes on to plead for the day when Hashem will take “delight” in sacrifices. He says,, “Do good to Zion in your good pleasure; build up the walls of Jerusalem; for then you will delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings, then they will offer bulls on your alter. (vs. 18-19)

    In other words, though we are in complete agreement that true repentance and obedience are more important than sacrifices, (blood or otherwise) doesn’t it seem that Hashem’s ideal includes both repentance and sacrifice rather than repentance alone? That Hashem delights in and therefore wants righteous sacrifice, but despises unrighteous sacrifices?

    I think this too correlates to the rebuilding of the Temple. When true repentance has occurred nationally, both regarding Israel, and perhaps the nations, Israel (and the world) will merit the temple in which they will be privileged to bring “righteous sacrifices.”

    I claim no equality to the Rambam but personally I have a hard time viewing sacrifices/the sacrificial system as being merely an accommodation to a previous existing form of worship that could later be dispensed with.

    As always, I am interested in your thoughts on the subject. :)

  41. June 18, 2014 4:13 pm

    “what I believe and it isn’t faith in either Christianity’s Jesus or Judaism’s Yeshua”

    Judaism doesn’t believe in “Yeshua”. However, Ben, just to understand where you are coming from (because you seem to have your own religion going here) – do you consider the historical Jesus (let me rephrase it – YOUR JESUS/YESHUA as you understand him) to be divine/deity in the flesh and do you pray to him and worship him?

  42. June 18, 2014 4:26 pm

    David… even the Temple itself, which was King’s David personal desire and plan, is an accommodation to human desire to honor and approach G-d in their way.

    “King David was living in his palace, and the Lord had given him peace from all his enemies around him. Then David said to Nathan the prophet, “Look, I am living in a palace made of cedar wood, but the Ark of G-d is in a tent!” (2 Samuel 7)

    As King Solomon said:

    “But will G-d really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!” (1 Kings 8:27)

    I think that G-d in His Wisdom has planned it to be the way it is – after all, we are His partners. Of course, G-d also gives guidance on how it is to be done.

  43. June 18, 2014 4:34 pm

    David, just to be sure, G-d does want our sacrifices, in the same way He wants our prayers, if both are done with a right heart and intent – they are part of our relationship with Him.

  44. Ben Marquez permalink
    June 18, 2014 4:46 pm

    Gene, I forgot to mention that the Bible over the centuries has been tampered with in such a way that it is difficult to find truth in all of its contradictions and additions, redactions, and outright lies. Yet it is by far the most purchased, debated, and controversial book in the world. That is why I believe that each one must prayerfully and sincerely seek truth from the ONE that is truth. You may not agree here, but G-D is the only source of truth and HE will never lead us down any other pathway.

  45. June 18, 2014 4:58 pm

    So, Ben, are you saying that G-d reveals His truth to us on individual basis, and not to a community of His people (e.g. Israel)?

    “You may not agree here, but G-D is the only source of truth and HE will never lead us down any other pathway.”

    Doesn’t everyone claim to look for G-d sincerely and prayerfully? How is it then that people end up on “wrong” pathways? If the Hebrew Bible (for example) is not the source of “the truth” (as Jews believe it to be), how am I going to agree with you that your version of truth is more “correct” then the truth I might claim that G-d has revealed to me personally?

  46. Ben Marquez permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:07 pm

    Here again I have to scratch my head and ask, what part of my post do you not understand. I said Jesus/Yeshua is not divine. Not in those exact words, but did I not state that to worship him was idolatry? Or do you like trying to push other people’s buttons? No, I don’t have my own religion. YHWH is my G-D and Creator of all that the universe holds. To HIM alone I pray, it is HIM alone I worship. Men, yes that includes both of us, can never claim to have all the truth. And, I say men can and do deceive other men. Truth is exclusive in that it is only found by those that seek it sincerely with the utmost desire to to worship and to live and serve the living G-D, Melech ha olam!

  47. June 18, 2014 5:25 pm

    “I said Jesus/Yeshua is not divine. Not in those exact words, but did I not state that to worship him was idolatry?”

    Ben, take a deep breath. I am not a mind reader. Do you believe that Yeshua saves your from your sins, is he your “Lord and Savior” per Acts 2:36?

    “Or do you like trying to push other people’s buttons?”

    Yes, I do, sometimes. Pushing the right buttons.

    “No, I don’t have my own religion.”

    OK, what community are you part of, if any?

  48. Ben Marquez permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:36 pm

    Are you saying that G-D reveals HIS truth to us on individual basis,- did I say that? Here is why we each need to search and seek truth, because we all hear things differently and assume that it is as it was coming out of Egypt. Is real was gathered as a whole and heard the same thing. Today Isreal nor any other nation gathers as a whole. Therefore, not all the people hear the same thing. Or am I only imagining there is division in most if not all religions? G-D wants obedience that leads to righteousness. If we understand this, then I believe HE reveals HIS truth on individual basis. You see not everyone is sincere in their worship. Sadly some play at honoring G-D. Will he reveal HIS truth to them as well? I too have many question unanswered yet. In many circles I am considered an heretic. There are depths in the truth that have not been fathomed. But irregardless I shall seek until I find or until I die.

  49. June 18, 2014 5:44 pm

    “There are depths in the truth that have not been fathomed. But irregardless I shall seek until I find or until I die.”

    Well, I certainly wish you luck.

  50. Ben Marquez permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:48 pm

    Gene, what is sin? Is it not transgression of Torah? Did not God say, ” cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, who makes human flesh his strength and turns his heart from the LORD.” Her 17:5 In answer to your question, and I believe you are looking for a doctrinal answer, right? No Yeshua does not save me from my sins. Therefore he cannot be my Lord and Savior.

  51. Ben Marquez permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:51 pm

    Did you know Gene, sarcasm is a way of telling others they are wrong inferring you are right?

  52. June 18, 2014 5:55 pm

    Ben, I believe that I have already found what I was missing – G-d within the Jewish people (warts and all) and Judaism (warts and all) as my faith. You, as you yourself said over and over, are still seeking the truth (“until you die”), but at the same time you still wish to let me know that you know that what I have found (Judaism) is not the truth, but only another corruption of it. I don’t know where Jesus/Yeshua fits in your scheme of things, but I suspect that he does. I don’t think we’ll agree on much in our conversation.

  53. June 18, 2014 5:57 pm

    “Did you know Gene, sarcasm is a way of telling others they are wrong inferring you are right?”

    Ben, I do think that you are wrong. But since you think that I am wrong too, I hope that you are not too offended! Either way, I hope you will find what you are seeking.

  54. Ben Marquez permalink
    June 19, 2014 3:06 pm

    Offense is neither here nor there. It is well that you have authority to judge others as to being right or wrong. Again though, you assume. When did I say you were wrong? I said there are depths in the truth that have not been fathomed. Now, in one of your replies to Brian, you said there was something deeper that had to be explored. As you stated earlier, this is your site and you write the rules. Fine, but you call Paul contradictory in his writings, and you question if he even is the author of those writings. Yet, in your posts and replies you too are contradictory in some things. You say the Hebrew Bible is without error, in a certain Bible I own passed on to me by the fathers of my father translated from a fragment of papyrus, found in Egypt about 1901 which contains the Hebrew text of the Decalogue and the Shema, Duet. 6:4; it is pre-Massoretic and dates about 2 and century A.D. In Jer. 8:8 it tells our people, ” how can you say we are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? When lo, the lying pen of the scribes has turned it into a lie.”

  55. Ben Marquez permalink
    June 19, 2014 3:30 pm

    Gene I am 67 years old have held minister’s credentials in 5 different denominations. Even as preached and taught I was never comfortable while doing so. I was a ” christian ” for 30 years. Disillusioned, I left Christianity and somehow found my way into Judaic Messianity. Well, what can I tell you. As you well know you can’t be both at the same time. I am pretty much alone with my Brother in our Torah observance. Again, this is the first time I have ever posted on line to any blog. Your articles caught my eye and as I read them I thought to myself, finally another who believes as I do. But……, I see you are someone that sees nothing beyond your own scope and judge everyone wrong because they either don’t believe like you or express similar beliefs as yours differently. Do not the Sages search out the depths of Hashems truth? Yet when I say that is what am trying to do you throw a textual tantrum of sorts. Again assuming I’m wrong and your right. You see, this is no different than most of Christianity. They do the same thing and condemn those that don’t believe as they do, to a hell of their imagination for eternity. With that my Brother I bid you adieu.

  56. June 19, 2014 4:15 pm

    “You say the Hebrew Bible is without error”

    Ben, um, I never said such a thing. Being a human document (albeit one inspired by G-d), it is bound to have some inconsistencies. It’s only through the Jewish people that the Bible becomes a living document. However, what I condemn in the New Testament is not typos and even wrong facts about math, history or geography, but outright changing of the meaning of the Torah and the prophets in service of idolatry of worship of man.

    “In Jer. 8:8 it tells our people, ” how can you say we are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? When lo, the lying pen of the scribes has turned it into a lie.”

    You use the above to prove the Bible is corrupted, at the same time, amazingly, those same corrupt scribes left that line in. However, Jeremiah is speaking of false prophets who prophesied falsehoods (they wrote their words down too!), not the Word of G-d that condemns such a thing!

    “I see you are someone that sees nothing beyond your own scope and judge everyone wrong because they either don’t believe like you or express similar beliefs as yours differently.”

    But you’re judging me, Ben – your very first comment on my blog was about how wrong I was! I’ve already explored my options and this is where I have arrived – G-d of Israel (alone) and Judaism. I am not endlessly searching anymore – now I am learning about what I have found. From now on, I am all about rebuilding my relationship with my G-d and with my people.

    “They do the same thing and condemn those that don’t believe as they do, to a hell of their imagination for eternity. ”

    The problem is not “believing”, the problem is action – worshiping a false god. This is what the Bible and G-d condemn, not I. My objective is to share with whatever Jews still stuck in Christianity to realize this fact and return to the faith of their forefathers – Judaism. If you are Jewish (halachically) I would advise you to do the same. If you are not, there are other options other than Christianity.

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