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Is it OK to worship Jesus but not images of him?

February 17, 2015
The Houten Idol; Wood, 5000 BCE, Willemstad

The Houten Idol; Wood, 5000 BCE, Willemstad

A Jesus-worshiper that I’ve recently come across on a messianic blog wondered why doesn’t the Christian bible (the New Testament) describe Jesus’ physical features in any great detail. The only feature we know for sure that he had (at least according to the NT) is a beard. Was it because people are not supposed to worship images, the Christian asked? Would not knowing what Jesus the man looked like somehow prevent idolatry? Protestants (and their messianic offshoots) think that as long as Jesus’ images are not worshiped (the way Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do), they are not committing idolatry by bowing down to Jesus the human being as unto G-d. Could they be right?

While we don’t have a photo or a life-painting of Jesus, we can still make an educated guess about what Jesus may have looked liked. First of all, he was a human being, with an actual body of flesh, bones and blood. Second, he was a male in his early thirties, according to the New Testament. Third, he most likely had an appearance of a typical first century Jewish man – medium height, olive sun-tanned skin, dark eyes, dark hair and a beard. True, we do not know his exact facial features, but are the exact facial features really important in the making of a graven image? After all, are not most of the idols archaeologist have dug up from the ancient world have extremely stylized faces with features that are not realistic at all? With their disproportionate bodies, huge heads, exaggerated noses, holes for eyes, it’s unlikely that they were meant to copy the exact likeness of the “gods”. Even closer to our era, the early Christians statues and icons representing Jesus didn’t really attempt to represent his exact likeness either (which they didn’t know), settling for a general look of a handsome bearded young (and mostly European) man. Some Catholics indeed argue that because we do know what Jesus looked like (at least what form he has), it’s just fine making an image of him that we can venerate.

Oddly enough, some protestants and messianics argue along much the same line when it comes to the G-d of the Bible and Jesus. They insist that G-d does have a real physical body, which they claimed was revealed to people at various times and places, from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden to Abraham in Genesis 18, where G-d disguised Himself as a human guest. Some Christians go so far as to suggest that the whole Trinity is represented in Genesis 18, with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being the other two “human guests” or “angels”. Since G-d has a body that He already showed to people in the “Old Testament” (the way Jesus the son-god showed his disciples his own body in the “New”), they claim, it’s not wrong to worship Jesus, a person with a human body, which the New Testament calls G-d’s image. That G-d warned Israelites in most severe terms that they didn’t see a form and not to corrupt themselves by making idols that looked like any creature, include humans, is ignored and explained away by these Christians. They are certainly not bothered by its implications because they see Jesus as an exception.

Then the L-rd spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no form; there was only a voice….Therefore watch yourselves very carefully. Since you saw no form on the day that the L-rd spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a carved image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female…(Deuteronomy 4:12-16)

But, back to man-made idols. Going a bit farther back into history, Greek statues of their demigods (mortals who are the offspring of a god and a human) obviously didn’t need to rely on an exact image either – they only needed to KNOW that their demigods were human beings, had physical bodies just like theirs and even behaved like mortal, if superhuman, men and women. So, it’s same with Jesus and making images that are used in worship of him – one need not know what Jesus looked liked exactly either in order to make a hand-made idol of Jesus. One only needs to know that he had a real physical human form that other people saw, a real man’s body that could be crucified, which is, of course, known to everyone.

However, do idols even need to be man-made images for them to be forbidden? Can one worship a god who has a human body and is in fact a “100% man”? This is indeed a major Protestant (and messianic) blind spot with which they often pride themselves over Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians. They argue that since Jesus was not a man-made image like a statue or an icon, even though he is a physical created being, he’s not like the idols that their other Christian brethren mold or paint. However, this sort of reasoning ignores the Torah prohibitions against worship any of G-d’s creation, not just graven images created by man. Anything that is not god but is worshiped as one is an idol. For example, is not the worship of things that G-d created, the sun or the moon, also idolatry (and one which was rampant in the ancient world), even though they are creations of G-d and not man’s handiwork? Indeed, it is the case, as we read in Deuteronomy 4:19:

And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars–all the heavenly array–do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the L-rd your G-d has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

So, if a human being (e.g. Jesus) or any other creature is a creation of G-d as much as the sun, the moon and the stars, how is bowing down to him and worshiping him any less an idolatry than worshiping a statue or an icon? According to the Word of G-d, the Hebrew Bible, that Christians claim to believe, it’s idolatry all the same. Humans beings are experts at rationalizing their beliefs and behaviors, and we are also experts at creating gods that are not gods, false gods that speak to our hearts, idols that are made in our image.

To you (Hashem) shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: “Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit. Do people make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!” (Jeremiah 16:19-20)

30 Comments leave one →
  1. remi4321 permalink
    February 17, 2015 4:33 pm

    You know, I have been called by friends an “unbeliever” and unequally yoked with my believing wife. I said “I believe in the G-d of Israel”, but they say I don’t believe in the Messiah. It would be easier for me to believe Jesus is the Messiah. I could enjoy worship at my messianic congregation and we could all enjoy talking about some biblical topic. But when I come to an article like this, or when I read my Bible, I just can’t go back to believing Jesus is God. If he would be and everything in the Tanakh would point to him, that would make everything easier. But, for me, worshipping Jesus is not possible, because G-d is one and has no image. My wife even doubts the whole thing now and she looks really confused. She said that the G-d that I worship is unjust because He does not requires a sin sacrifice…. Thanks for sharing Gene :)

  2. February 17, 2015 5:30 pm

    “My wife even doubts the whole thing now and she looks really confused.”

    Remi….. I rather call her present state as being in the process of “de-confusion”, since the clouds of darkness and true confusion sown by Christianity (and all other vain, false philosophies and ideologies that are based on distortion of reality) are slowly evaporating, allowing for the light of truth to shine through.

  3. Concerned Reader permalink
    February 17, 2015 6:55 pm

    It’s very telling actually that the Christian bible itself doesn’t really make the knowledge that Jesus is divine something certain or truly verifiable to anyone, including his own students.

    By that I mean, the way the “resurrection” was described as being experienced by the disciples, it says things like “they didn’t recognize him” not even physically when they saw him on the Shore, or when the women were at the tomb etc. the Aha moment technically didn’t happen at all in the text until Pentecost in Acts. Thomas doubts the miracle, etc. It’s also interesting that the Church has its whole antichrist Tradition, exemplified by verses like 2 Thessalonians 2:4 where it is said that antichrist itself will claim to be G-d and fool millions of people.

    This tradition’s presence clearly tells us that belief in a person’s divinity is not the litmus test to determine if they are a messiah, even in the christian sources. In analyzing the book of revelation scholars have come to view the emperor Nero as The antichrist mentioned in the book. This is because the words “Nero Caesar” can emerge from a gematria of 616 and 666 either in Greek or Hebrew by some type of calculations. Nero was the first emperor to require divine honor be payed to him while still alive, while others were only ever worshipped posthumously.

    It’s actually ironic that throughout the literature the way given to distinguish the true way from the false way is by a group’s adherence to certain precepts of moral conduct ie commandments.

  4. February 17, 2015 8:45 pm

    “It’s very telling actually that the Christian bible itself doesn’t really make the knowledge that Jesus is divine something certain or truly verifiable to anyone, including his own students.”

    CR, I am not sure what this really was meant to “tell”, but I would guess that there could have been (at least) two reasons for this:

    1. The idea of Jesus being a deity in the flesh was not yet fully developed by the Church. It was hinted by Paul (and his Christ spirit) and was probably more fully fleshed out by the end of first or beginning of second century (around the time the Gospel of John was written).
    2. The idea of Jesus being a deity in the flesh would have been scandalous in the first century, especially for a religion that claimed itself as the ultimate fulfillment of monotheistic Judaism.

    “It’s also interesting that the Church has its whole antichrist Tradition, exemplified by verses like 2 Thessalonians 2:4 where it is said that antichrist itself will claim to be G-d and fool millions of people.”

    It’s interesting and also ironic, especially considering that Jesus of the New Testament insist that people believe him because they were seeing his miracles, where as the later strata of the NT plainly tells us that the antichrist will himself perform great signs and miracles, and even rise from the dead and “fool” millions. This is exactly the reason why the Hebrew Bible warns us to be suspicious of miracles and wonders, and to test all prophets to see if they are indeed from G-d.

    The test G-d has given us is fairy straightforward: if whatever the prophet has predicted has come to pass AND if the prophet does not lead people away from worshiping the True G-d, they are a true prophet of G-d. This is precisely the area where the Jesus of the NT fails so dramatically. No true prophet of G-d would ever accept anything even resembling worship due to G-d alone for himself and no true prophet of G-d would prophesy things that would not come to pass, as Jesus clearly had done.

  5. Concerned Reader permalink
    February 17, 2015 11:47 pm

    I see the irony which is why I mentioned it Gene lol

  6. remi4321 permalink
    February 18, 2015 11:38 am

    When I was still a believer, I thought that it was not written that Jesus is G-d because it needed to be revealed by the Holy Spirit. Now, I think that at the beginning, they did not believe Jesus was G-d. It’s not mentioned in the synoptic gospels, but later on, as they saw that mostly gentiles were followers of Jesus, they started to introduce the idea in the book of John and Revelation without explicitly mentioning it in case a Jewish person wanted to believe in Jesus.

  7. February 18, 2015 11:48 am

    ” they started to introduce the idea in the book of John and revelation without explicitly mentioning it in case a Jewish person wanted to believe in Jesus.”

    Come to think of it, Remi, this is still going on to this very day – very rarely do those Christians/messianics who are trying to convert ignorant and estranged Jews to Christianity (Messianic “Judaism”) tell them that Jesus is god. He’s “the promised Messiah”, “sacrifice for sin” and “Jewish king”. That Jesus is also god – this little bit of information these poor Jews usually learn later, after they have been already ushered and settled comfortably into the arms of Jesus. By then they are much more ready to accept whatever is being fed to them.

    I remember when evangelist Michael Brown once opined in a responsa paper that Christians shouldn’t go around telling Jews that “Jesus is your god”, which while “true” (as Brown made sure to note, lest he would be misunderstood), will needlessly repel them from Jesus and from the Christian message of salvation because of the ingrained Jewish aversion to idolatry.

  8. Concerned Reader permalink
    February 18, 2015 3:23 pm

    As I’ve said beforehand though guys, Paul’s epistles are our earliest sources (he equates Jesus and G-d by his usage of scripture i.e. If the Tanakh says all will bow to G-d, Paul using the same verses says all wil bow to Jesus ) then there are the Synoptics, then John written in 90 CE where the equation is explicit that Jesus was G-d.

    The deification happened very early, not right away, but definitely by the end of the1st century. Trying to make the NT say that jesus isn’t G-d is like an exercise in futility. You can read it as saying he isnt G-d, but it’s more of a stretch that way. Also, even the “Jewish gospels” equate Jesus with an archangel or the embodiment of the Holy Spirit. Christology may have been embryonic, but it was very early.

  9. February 18, 2015 3:39 pm

    ” Trying to make the NT say that jesus isn’t G-d is like an exercise in futility.”

    I think that it strongly implies, certainly, especially in the later strata added toward the end of the first century, including later church edits to earliest sources. NT is not consistent in that regard, as have been pointed out before, as if it tries to disguise its full implications from the readers. But the path from a mortal Jewish itinerant preacher and failed messianic candidate to a demigod savior of the world seated on G-d’s throne is well paved nonetheless.

  10. ברוס permalink
    February 19, 2015 10:46 am

    “Can there be a greater stumbling block than this (Christianity)? That all the prophets spoke that the Messiah will redeem Israel and save them, and gather their dispersed and strengthen their Mitzvot, and this (one, i.e., Jesus) caused the Jews to be destroyed by the sword, and scattered their remnants and humbled them, and exchanged the Torah, and caused the majority of the world to err to serve a god other than the Lord. [11] Nevertheless, the thoughts of the Creator of the world are not within the power of man to reach them, ‘for our ways are not His ways, nor are our thoughts His thoughts.’ And all these matters of Jesus of Nazareth and that of the Ishmaelite who arose after him are only to straighten the way of the king Messiah and to fix the entire world, to serve G-d as one, as it is stated (Zephaniah 3:9), “For then I will turn to the peoples (into) clear speech, to all call in the name of G-d and serve Him unanimously. [12] How (will this come about)? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of the Messiah, with words of Torah and words of mitzvos and these matters have spread to the furthermost isles, to many nations of uncircumcised hearts, and they discuss these matters and the mitzvot of the Torah. Some say: “These mitzvoth are true, but were already nullified in the present age and are not applicable for all time.” Others say: “Hidden matters are in them (mitzvos) and they are not to be taken literally, and the messiah has already come and revealed their hidden (meanings). And when the true Messiah stands, and he is successful and is raised and exalted, immediately they all will retract and will know that fallacy they inherited from their fathers, and that their prophets and fathers caused them to err.” – Rambam

    With respect, the point is, I think, that although Christianity and Islam are not true, they have played a part in the Divine scheme for the redemption of the whole of humanity by spreading some sort of ethical monotheism involving an albeit incorrect idea of Messiah, Torah and Mitzvot. Although Islam and Christianity are part of the overall process leading to the redemption their imperfect ethical monotheism will be rectified through the adoption of the seven laws.

  11. February 19, 2015 11:05 am

    “they have played a part in the Divine scheme for the redemption”

    And that’s why it is possible for some Christians to readily embrace the Jewish understanding of G-d and the world – they have already been exposed to the Jewish texts (albeit in somewhat corrupted form) and many of the important Jewish (biblical) concepts are familiar to them. It doesn’t take a huge step for a Christian to go from here to there – the dropping of idolatry of worship of man while retaining the respect for the Hebrew Bible usually does it.

  12. Elizabeth permalink
    February 19, 2015 11:23 am

    Of course making an image is idolatry. Graven image. Jews number one sin. It is ingrained in their psyche

  13. remi4321 permalink
    February 19, 2015 11:53 am

    What Elizabeth? Jews making image is ingrained in their psyche? True, some do, but it is definitely a sin for them and most Jews don’t worship idols (in general) since the time of the first exile. Please clarify, because your comment makes no sense.

    Bruce, I totally agree with you, except for one point. I am definitely not certain of the 7 law of Noah. It is not found in the Tanakh and I have a hard time with the fact that Gentiles should brake the Sabbath as required by the 7 law of Noah. It is definitely part of the Creator’s plan to have the gentiles come closer to monotheism though.

    What are your thought on the 7 law of Noah?

  14. February 19, 2015 1:26 pm

    “What are your thought on the 7 law of Noah?”

    I know I promised to write a post on the Noahide laws (and Oral Torah), and I really intend to, soon!

  15. remi4321 permalink
    February 19, 2015 1:31 pm

    Thanks Gene :)

  16. Concerned Reader permalink
    February 19, 2015 6:34 pm

    Remi the Sheva mitzvot of Noah are biblical by inference to people like Ruth, Noah, Rahab, the Ninevites, Naaman the Syrian, etc. these were all righteous gentiles who did not have the mosaic halachic faith structure at the start of their walk with G-d. The sheva mitzvot were known in second temple times to Pharisees, Philo, and even to the disciples of Jesus, (even Paul.) Acts 15 is a partial list of them, but all the ethical core requirements of the seven laws are found throughout, Christians just don’t see them because they do not understand that component of the text. They focus on the rabbi Jesus’ person, but not on the rules he and his students taught.

  17. remi4321 permalink
    February 19, 2015 6:48 pm

    Hi CR, the 7 laws may be biblical, but Noahides are required to brake the Sabbath. They usually replace Eloheinu (our G-d) to Eohey Ysroel because G-d is the G-d of Israel. But I believe G-d is the G-d of all flesh… It’s pretty much the question, is the oral law inspired. Lets wait for Gene’s article on that :)

  18. Concerned Reader permalink
    February 19, 2015 9:10 pm

    I don’t agree with everything the rabbis say or do either remi, (it would be foolish to believe everything, religious Jews know that) but it’s important to know that oral Torah is only binding in cases of a decided halacha, decided by the Majority of judges that goes with the spirit of scripture, if you’ve been taught or asked how to observe it. Judaism doesn’t hold people liable for transgressions they aren’t aware of (as far as I know.) That’s why there are halachot that still haven’t been resolved, even in the talmud. Shabbat can be practiced by non Jews, just not in the same way as Jews practice it. You need rabbinic oversight also as far as I know. The reason that noachides can’t observe sabbath as Jews do, I believe, is because so many other unique laws (like prohibitions on catagories of work, threshing, sowing, etc.) would have to be observed by non Jews as well. I think that’s one reason why the disciples and Paul, and other Jews, distanced gentiles from the fully observant Torah path. Gentiles do have a role that Jews cannot fulfill. Somebody has to work on the sabbath, otherwise society couldn’t function.

  19. February 20, 2015 9:11 am

    “Gentiles do have a role that Jews cannot fulfill. Somebody has to work on the sabbath, otherwise society couldn’t function.”

    Well put. In fact, the role (if not the exact responsibilities) of Jews in the world (see Exodus 19:6) is pretty much the same as for priests in Israel’s society. Priests represent people before G-d – they are not priests if there’s nobody for them to represent. And as priests were busy taking care of the Temple, they depended wholly on other Israelites for their livelihood. Their standards were also much higher and demands on them more restrictive than for the rest of the people. So it is with Jews and non-Jews in the world. I myself am not of priestly descent (cohen), so I am to Jewish priests as a Gentile is to Jews. Do I feel slighted? Although I think it’s a great honor to be born into priesthood, the responsibilities and restrictions in place even for modern Jewish cohanim (at least for Orthodox Jews who take Torah seriously) make me at least somewhat thankful that I am not one.

  20. Concerned Reader permalink
    February 20, 2015 9:35 am

    To further put what Gene is saying into perspective, the Kohanim are also not allowed a portion of the land like other Israelites because Hashem wants to avoid the problems of clearly centralized (pyramid like) authority structure. I’ve often felt slighted myself that certain commands are off limits, but it’s actually a helpful thing that this is so. I’m sure there are many people who would not appreciate it if certain mitzvot were incumbent upon them to the same degree, because some just aren’t suited to it. For instance, If I were Jewish, (and a kohen) I would not want to participate in animal sacrifices. Rendering the calves of my lips and my life is enough for me.

  21. remi4321 permalink
    February 20, 2015 1:04 pm

    “but it’s important to know that oral Torah is only binding in cases of a decided halacha”

    The question is “Is the Oral Torah inspired?” For example, the Tanakh say that we should not add anything to the word of that law. When it say that we should not cook a kid in his monther’s milk, it refers to the pagan practice that we done. The talmud say we should not mix chicken with milk. If the oral Torah is inspired, then we should follow it, but if not, it is adding to the word of G-d… So it is a really important matter. So far, I have not read the Talmud and concentrated only on the Tanakh. As far as I know, Orthodox never mix milk with chicken (Chicken don’t have milk), so I personally have a really hard time to take that in practice. Maybe it has a lot to do with the New Testament talking so much against the Oral Traditions, but I don’t want to jump on some men wisdom if it is not really the word of G-d… So now I consider mostly as a Karaite Gentile… I am the only of my kind :) But I tend to agree more with Jewish people.

  22. February 20, 2015 1:15 pm

    “The talmud say we should not mix chicken with milk.”

    Remi, I spoke to my rabbi with whom I studied halacha for over a year about it a while back (re: chicken with milk), and he said that it’s a rabbinic fence (to avoid a mistake or appearance of eating mammalian flesh with milk), not Written Torah or Oral Torah. In fact, some rabbis in the past (Rabbi Yossi Ha-Gelili) insisted that birds should be permitted to be consumed with dairy. Rabbinic fence is not Torah – it’s designed to prevent coming too close to breaking Torah. The punishments for breaking rabbinic fences are not same as for breaking Torah commandments. Also, rabbis can suspend or change fences or give permission (heter) for individual Jews to not practice them – but they can’t do that with either Written or Oral Torah.

    There’s so much for Christians, messianics and former messianics to learn about how Judaism REALLY works:) Most, including the so called “messianic rabbis”, only have a very superficial understanding.

  23. February 20, 2015 1:21 pm

    Great to hear Gene. I definitely have to study more about it. And for the chicken and milk, I am vegetarian so it does not really matter… I will have to study more, the subject is really hard and don’t even know how to start. I fell that the Torah is easier, not everything is black and white in the Talmud and I really can’t listen to what people say. I would need to read it myself, but man! that would take me forever :)

  24. Concerned Reader permalink
    February 20, 2015 4:41 pm

    I share the same apprehension about certain things too remi, I think that’s normal. As per oral law and the NT, even when the NT says bad things about “traditions of men,” it still contains many of those same traditions, because those early students were pharisaic Jews, although they had apocalyptic and unconventional messianic views.

    For instance, Jesus tells his students not to wear their phylacoteries in the same way as the Pharisees (suggesting that they did wear them.) It seems from Mt 9:20, 14:36, Mk 6:56 that Jesus may have had Tzittzit. All of Jesus’ reasoning from the Torah also has a very lenient hillelite bent, except in matters of divorce. The fact that Acts 15 alone has 3 commands concerning food, (for gentiles no less,) it shows that contra christian assertion, they cared about kosher laws. It’s likely that references to “all foods being declared clean” could be “all foods are clean which the Bible calls kosher, or could be Jesus’ views about purity as it relates to food) As gene noted, some mitzvot are rabbinic fences, rooted by inference, and not directly found at all. For instance, it seems to me that many of Jesus’ violations for carrying on Shabbat, would not be considered violations today, because of Eruv laws which Jews did not practice in second temple times, (so far as I can tell from the sources available,) but are leniencies that can be understood by inference to certain situations. Here is a site that gives some possible explanations of Jesus’ violations and how he might have argued.

  25. February 20, 2015 4:52 pm

    “because of Eruv laws which Jews did not practice in second temple times, (so far as I can tell from the sources available,) ”

    That’s not so simple CR, because carrying is not directly prohibited in the 5 books of Torah but Jeremiah has G-d VERY upset about it in Jeremiah 17:21-22! Why? Then in Exodus 16:29 we have “Let no man leave his place on the seventh day”, yet Israelites certainly did leave their “homes” to go the Temple, for example. So, what exactly constitutes a “place” where one may carry on Shabbat? Just in one’s home or beyond? That’s where eruv comes in, to specify what is “your place” and what is not! Usually within one’s walled city was “your place”, but what cities have walls these days? That’s where the eruv string comes in! It’s not some rabbinic made up magic:)

  26. Concerned Reader permalink
    February 20, 2015 5:06 pm

    I know it isn’t made up, I just meant there is no direct textual mention of it in second temple times. Your explanation as to why makes sense.

  27. February 24, 2015 5:51 am

    We should only worship the Only One God, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of the People of God (Israel) who is also the God of Jesus and the God of the first followers of Jesus.

    Jesus, who is called son of man and by the God of Israel also called His (Jehovah God) beloved son, never claimed to be God and never wanted to be worshipped or praised for what he had done, because he considered it not him doing it, because he very well knew he could not do anything without his heavenly Father.

    Jesus prayed to his God and taught us also to pray to his Only One True God of Whom we may not make any graven image or may not bow down for any picture or statue to pray for or to worship.

    the people who keep insisting that G-d does has a real physical body, which they claim was revealed to people at various times and places, from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden to Abraham in Genesis 18, where G-d disguised Himself as a human guest, should look again at their Scriptures where is clearly indicated that G’d is an eternal Spirit, Who can not be seen by man or they would fall death, cannot be tempted, does not tell lies, cannot sin, knows everything, has no birth and cannot die.

    Jesus was born (had a beginning), was tempted more than once, had to learn everything and at the end of his life still did not know a lot of things. He even did not know who would be seated next to him or when he would come back. If he would have been G’d he would not have told the truth and would have been lying, what is considered to be sinning, things G’d does not. They also forget that Jesus prayed to his God and even asked Him (the Elohim Hashem Jehovah) why He had abandoned him (Jesus). Jesus did not fake his death. He really died and spent three days in hell before he was taken out of the dead by his heavenly Father. After he was resurrected he showed his wounds to the people he appeared to and proved he was not a spirit.

    This human man from Nazareth wanted us to worship the Only One G’s and that is what all Christians should do, according to the Will of God and not according to their own will, like Jesus did not his own will but only wanted to do the will of his heavenly Father Who is also our Father.

  28. February 24, 2015 5:59 am

    To remi4321 you write “When I was still a believer,” do you not believe any more, and in what did you believe. It seemed you believed human doctrines but not Biblical teaching. Though you say you “thought that it was not written that Jesus is G-d because it needed to be revealed by the Holy Spirit.” but according to the Bible there is only One god and that is not Jesus. Jesus is the only begotten son of God not a god-son.

    You now think rightly “that at the beginning, they did not believe Jesus was G-d”. Neither Jesus nor his disciples considered Jesus to being the Adonai.

    Your next writing is not so clear for us. But may we say John and the other evangelists and the later introduced adherent of Christ (Saul/Paul) knew very well the teachings of their master teacher, rabbi Jeshua (Jesus Christ) who they considered to be the prophet from God and the Messiah, but never to be G’d.

  29. February 24, 2015 9:24 am

    Christadelphians, do you believe that G-d has granted Jesus the authority to receive worship from his followers?

    Would you agree with this statement from the Christadelphian Tidings Magazine that “Is it appropriate to worship Jesus? inquires a brother. Upon consideration, the biblical answer becomes surprisingly clear: Not only is worship of Jesus Christ appropriate, it is required”?

  30. remi4321 permalink
    February 24, 2015 11:45 am


    Believer in the sense of “he who believes in the Son has life, he who does not believes in the son has the wrath of G-d”. A believer is someone who believes, as per what the new testament said, in Jesus as a atonement for sin. I do not believe any more that Jesus was necessary as “the only way” to the father. G-d does not need anybody between Him and us. Thus, I am still a believer in the G-d of Israel, but apart from the new testament.

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