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Conversation with a messianic about why I consider Jesus a false prophet and idol

March 9, 2015

jc-generationsRecently, I had an interesting conversation with a prominent messianic/Hebrew roots man (not of Jewish birth) who was attempting to show me that my (and that of Jewish people in general) rejection of Jesus as G-d’s prophet, as Israel’s “true messiah” and as god-incarnate is blasphemy against the G-d of Israel. In keeping with my long-standing practice of not embarrassing even those I disagree with on my blog, I will keep his identity anonymous.

Messianic: Gene [you are being] blasphemous [for rejecting Jesus].


Me: How am I being blasphemous?


Messianic: For the same reason those who rejected God’s prophets in the Tenakh were in rebellion to God.


Me: Messianic, but that still wouldn’t make even those people “blasphemous”. At best they are rebels. But you are assuming that Jews have been rebels against a true prophet of G-d. Such is patently NOT the case with Jesus.

In case of myself and all other Jews, besides numerous other more relatively lesser reasons, I reject Jesus because he failed to pass the true prophet test outlined in Deuteronomy 13. The multiple prophecies about his return in the lifetime of his followers have failed (and we read in the NT that they believed his words and fully expected it to come to pass) and what’s even worse, he himself became object of worship, an detestable idol, something that no true prophet of G-d would dream of doing.

Let me repeat: NO TRUE PROPHET OF G-D WILL ALLOW HIMSELF TO BECOME AN OBJECT OF WORSHIP AND NO TRUE PROPHET WILL PROPHESY FALSELY.

This is why I reject Jesus and all other false prophets and idols. I do this because I do not wish to violate the clear commands of my G-d, I do not want to betray my Maker and I don’t want to rebel against Him and His will. Only to the G-d of Israel I will bow my knee in worship and only His true prophets I believe and will believe. And ironically, to refer to an idol as the “G-d of Israel” as Christians talk of Jesus is indeed the blasphemy against Hashem, the true G-d.


Messianic: Rebellion against God, I think, is indeed a form of blasphemy. David rebelled against God’s commandments by murdering Uriah and committing adultery with his wife. Nathan the prophet tells David that this was blapheming God.

If rejecting God’s commandments was blaspheming, how much more for rejecting God’s prophets? How much more for rejecting God’s Messiah?

Yeshua is Israel’s Messiah, an unexpected and exalted Messiah who brought the Tenakh to all nations. Israel rejected God’s Messiah, and is in rebellion for doing so.


Me: Messianic, I think you missed something:

Let me repeat once again: NO TRUE PROPHET OF G-D WILL ALLOW HIMSELF TO BECOME AN OBJECT OF WORSHIP AND NO TRUE PROPHET WILL PROPHESY FALSELY THE WAY JESUS DID, OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)

Throughout the last two thousands years, many thousands of Jews bravely went to painful deaths at the hands of Christians or took their own lives and lives of their families because they refused to commit the greatest sin of all: a betrayal of their G-d by worshiping a false god. They refused to follow a false prophet who failed the test that G-d Himself instituted.


Messianic: I’m willing to talk to you about Messiah’s prophecies.


Me: Messianic, but are you willing to look at them honestly, the way I had to after believing the lies for almost 20 years? At least some Christians were honest with themselves when they recognized the true implications of what Jesus did, even if ultimately not willing to give up their faith in the god-man despite of the facts apparent to them and making excuse why they would continue to have faith in lies. Like perhaps that greatest Christian author C.S. Lewis, who wrote:

“It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

“It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. … The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.”


Messianic: Gene, are you willing to view the Tenakh with the same skepticism? In Deuteronomy, Moses says that Israelites will eat their own children if they turn from God and the Torah. Let’s talk about that prophecy. Did it really happen? (Emphasis mine)

I believe both are to be interpreted, and both can be explained if one is willing to not be so rigid.

But this is a problem with the anti-missionary positions: great skepticism when it comes to the New Testament, but blind faith when it comes to the Tenakh. The Tenakh contains all kinds of difficulties, far more than the New Testament! If we accept them at face value without engaging with the biblical scholarship and sages and learned men who explain them, we’d end up all foolish atheists.


Me: Messianic, yours is a “suicide bomb” argument – trying to defend your faith by questioning the very foundation on which you claim it rests. Why not deal with it instead of trying to say “you did it first”, especially when you are wrong, as I will demonstrate:

You said: “In Deuteronomy, Moses says that Israelites will eat their own children if they turn from God and the Torah. Let’s talk about that prophecy. Did it really happen?

As a matter of fact it certainly did. It was fulfilled exactly:

2 Kings 6:26-29

“As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried to him, “Help me, my lord the king!” The king replied, “If the Lord does not help you, where can I get help for you? From the threshing floor? From the winepress?” Then he asked her, “What’s the matter?”

She answered, “This woman said to me, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him today, and tomorrow we’ll eat my son.’ So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him,’ but she had hidden him.”

What do you say, Messianic?

The above is also reflected in G-d’s own warning: Jeremiah 19:9 (also Ezekiel 5:10)

“I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.”

Since you are wrong about your claim above, as I showed you, perhaps there are many other things that you are wrong about, Messianic? Perhaps you will be willing to listen?


Messianic: “yours is a suicide bomb argument”

No, I am asking you to use equal weights and measures, something the Torah that you and I share commands us to do.

You’re willing to explain away difficulties in the Tenakh, but unwilling to do the same for the New Testament.

Moses claims one animal chews the cud, while modern science clearly shows otherwise. Thus, if I don’t explain this, I am forced to say Moses was ignorant of science, and furthermore, that God didn’t command Moses to say something false. Chronicles is inconsistent about who inspired an Israelite king, one saying it was the Adversary, another saying it was God himself. The Torah says no one can see God, and yet, right there in the Torah, the people see God and dine with Him.

For every difficulty in the New Testament, I can give you 10 in the Tenakh.

We, as people who love God, must be willing to engage with Biblical scholarship on these issues, working through them, rather than discarding it upon mere sight of a difficult reading.


Me: Messianic, are you just going to ignore your accusation against the biblical prophecy that you said was never fulfilled when I showed you that it was exactly? Like you never even make the claim just now, you will just brush it off, right?

And I am not asking you to show me “difficulties” in the Bible. G-d gave us a very specific test how to test a false prophet. This means that it’s VERY important for us to be able to apply this test and apply it properly, especially since so much is at stake. If we get this wrong, we are going to follow a false prophet. And when it comes to false prophets which we accept at their word, we are going to worship an idol too – in this case, a deified man.

It’s not some minor issue of a possible discrepancy, e.g. how many people went into Egypt (e.g. as you see in Acts) or some other omission in order of events, etc. We are not talking above grammatical errors either. We are talking about a person who claimed to be a prophet making a blatant false prophecy that didn’t materialize. And we are talking not about just some mere human being, but a person that you believe to be G-d Himself who said those words. The standard that we should apply to such a prophet should be exceedingly high. But you are not willing to test Jesus the way Torah demands of Israel. You want to make excuses for him so that you can continue worshiping him instead of rejecting this idol of the nations and worshiping G-d alone.


Messianic: You’re missing the point, Gene. You can explain difficulties in the Tenakh. Great.

I can explain difficulties in the New Testament.

You are willing to explain difficulties in the Tenakh, but unwilling to do the same for the New Testament.

This is unequal weights and measures. And this problem is endemic to the anti-missionary crowd.

Here’s a real-life example: Have you engaged with Christian scholarship about Messiah’s prophecy? Did you read how it likely spoke of the Temple’s destruction, which did indeed occur in that generation? Did you conflate the prophecy of the return of Messiah with the Temple’s coming destruction? Did you engage with Josephus, who writes of an appearance of heavenly hosts over Jerusalem before the Temple’s destruction? Did you discover that some believed this was the sign of heaven spoken of by Jesus? Did you engage with scholars who suggest “this generation” he was speaking of the generation in the last days? Did you come upon the number of interpretations by biblical scholars and learned mean who interpreted the text harmoniously?

No, you didn’t do any of those things. It is because you are not using equal weights and measures.


Me: “No, you didn’t do any of those things. It is because you are not using equal weights and measures.”

Of course I have, Messianic. I was a Jesus-worshiper for almost 20 years, did you forget? How do you think I dealt with the cognitive dissonance for all those years? By reading extensively the books and other materials by Christian authors and scholars and all their rationalizations of Jesus’ false prophecies and the idolatry of worshiping a man as G-d! I think I’ve heard just about all of the excuses and even used them myself to defend Jesus and my worship of him.

But it’s time to confront the reality. Don’t keep asking me the question: “who are you going to believe, your own lying eyes or me”? When a false prophecy and idolatry is so blatant, no amount of scholarship will make the obvious lies and sin against G-d go away.


Messianic: Yes, and you do not apply that same skepticism to the difficulties in the Tenakh.

I have the benefit of having seen all sides of this: my family are believers in the God of Israel and Israel’s Messiah. My younger brother rejected Israel’s Messiah for OJ. And my cousin rejected first Messiah, then the Tenakh, and is now in atheism.

The logical end to the reasoning, “Throw out the whole thing because of difficulties in the text” is dead atheism.

The way forward for God’s people is to work with the text, not treat it rigidly, engage with scholarship, ask God for wisdom, and acknowledge humans do not understand the mind of God. That is our path forward. It is one of humility and spirituality, not of an intellectual arrogance that says any difficulty in the text invalidates it as a whole.


Me: “Difficulties” are not near on the same level as false prophecies, Messianic. I can live with difficulties, but when my very relationship with G-d is at stake because I have believed and followed a person who had made numerous false prophecies, and what’s even worse, who himself had become a deity receiving worship due to G-d alone, that is something far more serious that a “difficulty”. That’s idolatry and betrayal of G-d. If I have willfully refused, even when someone challenged me to do so, to apply G-d’s own test for that prophet, there will be little room for professing ignorance.


Messianic: Gene,

Let’s see if we can apply that same logic to the Tenakh.

“My very relationship with G-d is at stake because I have believed and followed a person who claimed to speak on behalf of God, when it’s clear he was ignorant about nature and made false statements about it, rendering his claim of divine inspiration false, making him out to be a false prophet.”

You have a problem interpreting one of Messiah’s prophecy. (Even though you admin he did, in fact, prophesy the destruction of the Temple!) You are snagging Messiah on whether “this generation” would see “the coming of the Son of Man”. Meanwhile, you’re either unaware of or unwilling to engage with biblical scholars who interpret this harmoniously.

This is the unequal weights and measures on display.


Me: “You have a problem interpreting Messiah’s prophecy. (Even though you admit he did, in fact, prophesy the destruction of the Temple!)”

I admitted what, Messianic? I think you got something I said “crossed” in your mind. All of the gospels, even the earliest Mark, were written long after Jesus died. Unlike the prophets of old, Jesus himself wrote down nothing. What’s even more telling, Paul, the earliest NT writer, doesn’t even seem to know about the coming “destruction of the Temple” – he mentions nothing of it in his letters (which is strange for such an important prophecy). What’s even more funny, is that we have a clear case of Church scribes adding a statement (1 Thessalonians 2:16) that the wrath already came on Jews “at last”, some 30 or 40 years prior to any “wrath”.

Messianic, you can continue fighting your cognitive dissonance, continue worshiping a false god and continue believing false prophecies. But there’s a way out if you are willing to admit to yourself that perhaps you are wrong.


Messianic: Gene, do you see the absurdity of what you just said? :-)

Let’s see if we can summarize:

“Yeshua is not the Messiah because he made a false prophesy, in which the destruction of the Temple and the return of Messiah are linked, and that “this generation” would not pass away until it saw these things. But, Yeshua didn’t actually make that prophesy, because the gospels were written after him, and by others and not Yeshua himself.”

See the problem? Not only is Yeshua both making the prophesy and not making the prophesy, but don’t you think that if the gospel writers who supposedly recorded “long after” Yeshua died, they would have edited the prophecy so that it would not be problematic?”

This is not sound reasoning, Gene.

More importantly, you are still using unequal weights and measures: you are willing to explain away difficulties in the Tenakh, but unwilling to extend the same charitable reading to the New Testament.

This problem is endemic to the anti-missionary crowd.


Me: “This is not sound reasoning, Gene.”

It’s actually very sound reasoning, Messianic. I judge truthfulness of person of Jesus by what Christians wrote about him in the NT. That’s the only way for me to judge him and his claims – I have no other source of his claimed words. For example, I don’t believe that he said anything that John claims he did. But I am going to rely on John to judge the claims of Christianity because that religion and you as well claim it to be “truth”

In sum, I believe that Jesus was a real person, but I don’t believe that he’s what Christianity made him into – either prophet, messiah or especially god. But since your religion wants me and other Jews to judge him and accept him based on the evidence you call “New Testament”, I will judge him by the information Christianity claims as the facts about him. And judging by that, Jesus fails on all fronts. It’s false prophecy and idolatry.


Messianic: No, it’s not. Your reasoning is self-defeating:

“Jesus is not the Messiah of Israel because how I interpret his prophecy didn’t come true. Except that he didn’t actually make that prophesy; it was written by people after him. And even though the people after him wrote the prophecy long after his death, they didn’t bother to change the false prophecy.”

There are so many things wrong with this reasoning, Gene.

I notice also there are more unequal weights on display here: the Tenakh does indeed contain words ascribed to a man written after the fact. Not the least of which is the Torah itself!

I am at least glad you do believe Jesus was a real person. That’s a start. The next step is, if Jesus was a real person, were his contemporaries, like Peter and James? And if so, why were Peter and James and his contemporaries unwilling to recant in their trusting that Yeshua was the Messiah of Israel, even to the point of their own torturous deaths?


Me: “There are so many things wrong with this reasoning, Gene.”

I think that I explained it already – I am not sure what you’re not getting. I judge Jesus by the claims made about him in your New Testament. That’s all I have to go by! Christians thought that the destruction of the Temple will be the sign of Jesus’ immanent return – they failed! They thought that Nero’s persecution was a sign of anti-Christ and Jesus’ immanent return and wrote this into book of Revelation – they again failed. Just as some of Christians thought that the year 2000 would bring back Jesus. They also failed.

And why would they bother to change false prophecies? Christian history is littered with false prophecies that were later explained away by the faithful within days of them failing to materialize – from early Christians waiting for Jesus to return, to Mormons to JWs, to recent evangelists predicting doomsday. You are still trying to explain them away right now!

“I am at least glad you do believe Jesus was a real person.”

I believe that Joseph Smith was a real person. But I don’t believe that he found the golden tablets with new revelations from G-d. I believe that Muhhamad was a real person, but I don’t believe that he was taken up to heaven on a magic horse.


Messianic: Gene, I disagree. I think we have much to judge the claims of Yeshua with, beyond the writings about him by his contemporaries. For example, the reality that families in every nation on earth know of the God of Israel and call the Tanakh their Scripture.

But this we already discussed.

Take care, Gene.


Me: Till we spar again, Messianic.

All the best.

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16 Comments leave one →
  1. March 9, 2015 12:31 pm

    Judging by stats, this post is generating healthy interest. On the heels of this post, I plan to publish this week a post that will look into how the faithful deal with cognitive dissonance when a prophecy fails.

  2. remi4321 permalink
    March 9, 2015 3:49 pm

    Hi Gene, you got good points, but I am tired of fighting against the current. I told a friend that I will read the whole bible (old and new). I just keep thinking of all the inconsistencies of the new testament, like the unfulfilled prophecies of Jesus. As you know I am not a fan of the Talmud either, so I am the only one that believes what I believe. Can’t they worship what they want to worship and leave me alone! He pretty much feels like an awful god anyway, if I HAVE TO believe that god was a human after saying he is not, and haha, if you doubts, torment of lava will engulf you for ever, ever, ever and leholam! Also, with all the persecution of the “church” that doesn’t seem such a nice religion after all. But they will tell me that they were not true xtians (They always have an answer, but really they do not make any sense). There is soooo many xtians that are not xtians. 99.9% of xtians are not true xtian, I was not, and you weren’t either, catholics, mormons, Ataliah, 7 days, all those that finish in “ians” like those pescetarians (of course that can’t be true xtians, they don’t eat fish) I feel that Jesus remove all the focus from G-d and put it on himself! Anyway, you are the last person I listen/read to, I am going to read my Bible instead and for the rest,… well, I don’t know. I wonder if many would have believe in Jesus if they would have started reading from Genesis instead of a quick-fix prayer of repentance like I and so many did!

  3. remi4321 permalink
    March 9, 2015 3:52 pm

    And I have to pray to the holy spirit, god can’t answer by himself? No, maybe that father is not omnipotent, only the holy spirit is!

  4. March 9, 2015 4:14 pm

    “I am tired of fighting against the current. ”

    Remi, if you don’t fight it, you might drown in it, since it’s very strong, very deep and exceedingly polluted. Better to pull yourself out and then may be give a hand to your friend or neighbor.

    “99.9% of xtians are not true xtian, I was not, and you weren’t either”

    My best Messianic Jewish friend whom I’ve known from my Evangelical days, probably for the last 17 years if not more, told me when I last met him a few months back that “you must have not been a true believer in Yeshua, or you wouldn’t fall away”. Well, I certainly was by any measure. Everything in my life was in service of Jesus. Then I simply learned that “Yeshua” was a one big lie in every way. For me to continue in that lie would be impossible at this point.

    “As you know I am not a fan of the Talmud either, so I am the only one that believes what I believe.”

    But most of Talmud is simply a dissection of biblical laws, discussions and arguments between rabbis. It’s not scripture, it’s not to be simply read like a book (one has to study it with an expert) and it’s nothing like the Hebrew Bible, Quran or even the NT. It’s more like a library of books on various topics in a law school. Besides, rabbis typically discouraged non-Jews from even studying it – fearing that it would be misused (and it has been) and because most of the contents do not apply to them directly.

    “I wonder if many would have believe in Jesus if they would have started reading from Genesis instead of a quick-fix prayer of repentance like I and so many did!”

    The problem is that they would still have the “Jesus glasses” firmly on their faces. Even before becoming “born-again” they were already immersed into a Christian culture. Everything they will read in the “Old Testament” they will automatically imagine as being somehow about Jesus, or some sort of “type and shadow” point to him. I think that the first realization that must happen is that to worship anything or anyone as god is idolatry and sin #1 against G-d, no matter how beautiful and wonderful that something or someone appears to be. Then one must be honest with him or herself, sit down and examine the rest of the NT against the Hebrew Bible, whether or not it truly jives with what G-d already revealed about His nature and His plans for Israel and for the rest of this world.

  5. remi4321 permalink
    March 9, 2015 4:40 pm

    I would definitely leave and never look back at xtianity, but that’s impossible, being married with a devout messianic. I really don’t see myself worshipping Jesus again. They all say that I am closed. I heard the same thing last week, that I am blaspheming and it is a serious thing to doubt the trinity. I know you were probably a devout xtian, but you heard it just like me… I was not a true follower of Jesus because I was not sealed by the holy spirit. So they have to discard everything we say. True evangelical will not read your article to learn. They most likely will read it if they have doubts or if they want to prove you are wrong.

    I heard that Abraham did not pass between the split carcases and that meant that G-d took the two parts of the covenant (pointing out that Jesus fulfilled the law for us I guess). I said I was not convinced, and they say that I don’t want to see the truth. Every time they arrive with a new thing they read in a book that “prove” xtianinty. If I don’t believe, they say that I don’t want to see the truth, that I am closed and that I follow the rabbis.

    I am tired of listening about that fling man in flesh in heaven that stand in a literal hand of the father, and both sits on the same throne! That man being also a lion, a lamb, a serpent, and a shepherd. But I am the fool. and if I show doubts, I am the one that does not open his eye. If I say that Hell is not literal, I don’t take the bible literally. But if the Bible talks about Babylon in Isaiah 14, that must be Satan? And tyre is not Tyre, it’s Satan. The snake, Satan, People with a bent back, Satan! Hill people, Satan. It’s probably Satan tempting me, I don’t really write? It’s all a lie to keep people under Rome! The iron is not as strong, but it is still there…

  6. Concerned Reader permalink
    March 9, 2015 8:40 pm

    Remi, here are some posts I wrote on rabbi Bs blog, that you can show to those who question you. Part 1

    The issue that Judaism has with the doctrine of the incarnation and hypostatic Union is manifold.

    1st, G-d informed the people of ISRAEL at mount Sinai that they saw “no manner of form but heard only a voice.” And that they were not to make an image, or to put another god, before his face. They are told to heed all the words I command you “THIS DAY” unto ALL GENERATIONS IE sinai law does not change.

    2nd Even if G-d can manifest in A created nature, these manifestations are not to be worshipped by people, or addressed in prayer. IE Nobody prays to G-d in the name of the burning bush, in the name of the captain of the lord’s host, in the name of Ezekiel’s chariot, or the temple, etc. by the same token Jews are not permitted to address anyone but the father in prayer and service.

    3rd Look at how many people historically (either by themselves or through their students) have claimed

    1. Divinity
    2. Miracles
    3. Large numbers of followers

    The bible teaches that you cannot rely on these kinds of claims for proof, precisely because they are so easy to fake. (Consider Pharoah’s magicians, or even the Church doctrine on the antichrist. The litmus test for truth, (according to both testaments) is adherence to the commandments of
    G-d.

  7. Concerned Reader permalink
    March 9, 2015 8:47 pm

    Here Is a very small list of people who believed Jesus was the messiahand yet who also stood condemned in the eyes of the Churches.

    Gnostics
    Ebionites
    Arian Christians
    Nestorians
    Mormons
    People’s temple
    Other Protestant denominations
    And many many more

    Believing in Jesus doesn’t matter at all if you don’t follow living in his example or ethics. Though Jews do not and will never confess to any belief in a divine Christ Jesus ever, they all live their lives in the exact same way that Jesus lived his while he walked on earth, by keeping G-d’s commandments as given by Moses. According to the Christian scriptures the false messiah will claim himself to be G-d and will deceive many (2 Thessalonians 2:4) Therefore how do you truly know who is truly from G-d? Revelation 14:12 “they who keep the commandments and the FAITH OF (note well that it says OF NOT IN Jesus.) Jesus was a Jew, so why do you want to make Jews behave like gentile Christians?

  8. Concerned Reader permalink
    March 9, 2015 9:33 pm

    To see the problem of an incarnation in full, Read this portion of the chariot vision of ezekiel here below, beginning with chapter 1.

    25 Then there came a voice from above the vault over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. 26 Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. 27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.
    This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

    The fathers of the Church identify the one like a man on the throne, from Ezekiel’s vision, with Christ, the logos, and first born Son of G-d.

    Consider This interpretation in light of chapter 28 of the same book.

    1Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: אוַיְהִי דְבַר יְהֹוָה אֵלַי לֵאמֹר:
    2″Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: So said the Lord God: Because your heart is proud, and you said, ‘I AM A G-D, (THE HEBREW DOES NOT SAY a god, BUT SAYS EL! I have sat IN A SEAT of God, in the heart of the seas,’ but you are a man and not a god, yet you have made your heart like the heart of God. בבֶּן אָדָם אֱמֹר לִנְגִיד צֹר כֹּה אָמַר | אֲדֹנָי יֱהֹוִה יַעַן גָּבַהּ לִבְּךָ וַתֹּאמֶר אֵל אָנִי מוֹשַׁב אֱלֹהִים יָשַׁבְתִּי בְּלֵב יַמִּים וְאַתָּה אָדָם וְלֹא אֵל וַתִּתֵּן לִבְּךָ כְּלֵב אֱלֹהִים:
    3BEHOLD ARE YOU WISER THAN DANIEL, THAT NO SECRET IS HIDDEN FROM YOU? גהִנֵּה חָכָם אַתָּה מִדָּנִאֵל כָּל סָתוּם לֹא עֲמָמוּךָ:

    (NEBUCHADNEZZAR TRIED TO BRING SACRIFICES TO DANIEL, AS IF HE WAS A MANIFESTATION OF G-D AFTER!! HE ADMITTED THAT THE FATHER HASHEM WAS TRUE G-D OF G-D’s Daniel 2:46-47!!!!!!)

    4With your wisdom and with your understanding did you acquire wealth for yourself, and gather gold and silver in your treasurehouses? דבְּחָכְמָתְךָ וּבִתְבוּנָתְךָ עָשִׂיתָ לְּךָ חָיִל וַתַּעַשׂ זָהָב וָכֶסֶף בְּאוֹצְרוֹתֶיךָ:

    5With your great wisdom in your commerce did you increase your wealth, that your heart became haughty with your wealth? הבְּרֹב חָכְמָתְךָ בִּרְכֻלָּתְךָ הִרְבִּיתָ חֵילֶךָ וַיִּגְבַּהּ לְבָבְךָ בְּחֵילֶךָ:
    6Therefore, so said the Lord God: Because you made your heart like the heart of God, ולָכֵן כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יֱהֹוִה יַעַן תִּתְּךָ אֶת לְבָבְךָ כְּלֵב אֱלֹהִים:

    7Therefore, behold I am bringing foreigners, the strong of the nations, upon you, and they will draw their swords on the beauty of your wisdom and profane your brightness. זלָכֵן הִנְנִי מֵבִיא עָלֶיךָ זָרִים עָרִיצֵי גּוֹיִם וְהֵרִיקוּ חַרְבוֹתָם עַל יְפִי חָכְמָתֶךָ וְחִלְּלוּ יִפְעָתֶךָ:
    8Into the Pit they will lower you, and you will die the deaths of those who are slain, in the heart of the seas. חלַשַּׁחַת יוֹרִדוּךָ וָמַתָּה מְמוֹתֵי חָלָל בְּלֵב יַמִּים:

    9Will you say, “I am a god” before your slayer? Indeed, you are a man and not a god in the hand of your slayer. טהֶאָמֹר תֹּאמַר אֱלֹהִים אָנִי לִפְנֵי הֹרְגֶךָ וְאַתָּה אָדָם וְלֹא אֵל בְּיַד מְחַלְלֶךָ:
    10The deaths of the uncircumcised you shall die at the hand of foreigners, for I have spoken,” says the Lord God. ימוֹתֵי עֲרֵלִים תָּמוּת בְּיַד זָרִים כִּי אֲנִי דִבַּרְתִּי נְאֻם אֲדֹנָי יֱהֹוִה:

    11Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: יאוַיְהִי דְבַר יְהֹוָה אֵלַי לֵאמֹר:

    12″Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, So said the Lord God: You are the one who engraves images, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    יבבֶּן אָדָם שָׂא קִינָה עַל מֶלֶךְ צוֹר וְאָמַרְתָּ לּוֹ כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יֱהֹוִה אַתָּה חוֹתֵם תָּכְנִית מָלֵא חָכְמָה וּכְלִיל יֹפִי:

    13In Eden, the garden of God you were; every precious stone was [set in] your covering; ruby, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and crystal and gold; the work of your drums and your orifices is in you; on the day of your creation they were established. יגבְּעֵדֶן גַּן אֱלֹהִים הָיִיתָ כָּל אֶבֶן יְקָרָה מְסֻכָתֶךָ אֹדֶם פִּטְדָה וְיַהֲלֹם תַּרְשִׁישׁ שֹׁהַם וְיָשְׁפֵה סַפִּיר נֹפֶךְ וּבָרְקַת וְזָהָב מְלֶאכֶת תֻּפֶּיךָ וּנְקָבֶיךָ בָּךְ בְּיוֹם הִבָּרַאֲךָ כּוֹנָנוּ:

    (NOTICE THE GEMSTONES THAT EZEKIEL IS MENTIONING HERE AND HOW THEY PARALELL THOSE IN CHAPER 1?

    14YOU WERE A CHERUB OF GREAT MEASURE, that covers, and I gave that to you; you were on THE MOUNT OF THE SANCTUARY of God: you walked among stones of fire. ידאַתְּ כְּרוּב מִמְשַׁח הַסּוֹכֵךְ וּנְתַתִּיךָ בְּהַר קֹדֶשׁ אֱלֹהִים הָיִיתָ בְּתוֹךְ אַבְנֵי אֵשׁ הִתְהַלָּכְתָּ:

    15You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created until wrongdoing was found in you. טותָּמִים אַתָּה בִּדְרָכֶיךָ מִיּוֹם הִבָּרְאָךְ עַד נִמְצָא עַוְלָתָה בָּךְ:

    16Because of the multitude of your commerce, they filled you with violence and you sinned, and I shall cast you as profane from the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O COVERING CHERUB, from among the stones of fire. טזבְּרֹב רְכֻלָּתְךָ מָלוּ תוֹכְךָ חָמָס וַתֶּחֱטָא וָאֲחַלֶּלְךָ מֵהַר אֱלֹהִים וָאַבֶּדְךָ כְּרוּב הַסּוֹכֵךְ מִתּוֹךְ אַבְנֵי אֵשׁ:

    17Your heart became haughty because of your beauty; you destroyed your wisdom with your brightness; I have cast you upon the ground; I have set you before kings to gaze upon you. יזגָּבַהּ לִבְּךָ בְּיָפְיֶךָ שִׁחַתָּ חָכְמָתְךָ עַל יִפְעָתֶךָ עַל אֶרֶץ הִשְׁלַכְתִּיךָ לִפְנֵי מְלָכִים נְתַתִּיךָ לְרַאֲוָה בָךְ:
    18Because of the multitude of your iniquities, with the wrongdoing of your commerce, you profaned your sanctity, and I shall bring forth fire out of your midst-it will consume you, and I shall make you ashes on the ground before the eyes of all who see you. יחמֵרֹב עֲו‍ֹנֶיךָ בְּעָוֶל רְכֻלָּתְךָ חִלַּלְתָּ מִקְדָּשֶׁיךָ וָאוֹצִא אֵשׁ מִתּוֹכְךָ הִיא אֲכָלַתְךָ וָאֶתֶּנְךָ לְאֵפֶר עַל הָאָרֶץ לְעֵינֵי כָּל רֹאֶיךָ:
    19All who know you among the peoples will wonder over you; you shall be a terror, and you shall be no more, ever.” יטכָּל יוֹדְעֶיךָ בָּעַמִּים שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ בַּלָּהוֹת הָיִיתָ וְאֵינְךָ עַד עוֹלָם:
    20Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: כוַיְהִי דְבַר יְהֹוָה אֵלַי לֵאמֹר:
    21″Son of man! Set your face toward Zidon and prophesy about her. כאבֶּן אָדָם שִׂים פָּנֶיךָ אֶל צִידוֹן וְהִנָּבֵא עָלֶיהָ:
    22And you shall say; So said the Lord God: Behold I am against you, Zidon, and I shall be honored in your midst, and you will know that I am the Lord when I perform judgments in her and I shall be sanctified in her. כבוְאָמַרְתָּ כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יֱהֹוִה הִנְנִי עָלַיִךְ צִידוֹן וְנִכְבַּדְתִּי בְּתוֹכֵךְ וְיָדְעוּ כִּי אֲנִי יְהֹוָה בַּעֲשׂוֹתִי בָהּ שְׁפָטִים וְנִקְדַּשְׁתִּי בָהּ:
    23And I shall send into her pestilence and blood in her streets, and they will judge themselves as slain in her midst by the sword [coming] upon her from all around, and they will know that I am the Lord. כגוְשִׁלַּחְתִּי בָהּ דֶּבֶר וָדָם בְּחוּצוֹתֶיהָ וְנִפְלַל חָלָל בְּתוֹכָהּ בְּחֶרֶב עָלֶיהָ מִסָּבִיב וְיָדְעוּ כִּי אֲנִי יְהֹוָה:
    24And there will no longer be to the house of Israel a pricking briar or a painful thorn from all that are around them, who plunder them, and they will know that I am the Lord God. כדוְלֹא יִהְיֶה עוֹד לְבֵית יִשְׂרָאֵל סִלּוֹן מַמְאִיר וְקוֹץ מַכְאִב מִכֹּל סְבִיבֹתָם הַשָּׁאטִים אוֹתָם וְיָדְעוּ כִּי אֲנִי אֲדֹנָי יֱהֹוִה:
    25So says the Lord God: When I gather in the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they have been scattered, and I have been sanctified through them in the eyes of the nations, then shall they dwell on their land that I gave to My servant, to Jacob. כהכֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יֱהֹוִה בְּקַבְּצִי | אֶת בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל מִן הָעַמִּים אֲשֶׁר נָפֹצוּ בָם וְנִקְדַּשְׁתִּי בָם לְעֵינֵי הַגּוֹיִם וְיָשְׁבוּ עַל אַדְמָתָם אֲשֶׁר נָתַתִּי לְעַבְדִּי לְיַעֲקֹב:
    26And they shall dwell upon it securely, and they shall build houses and plant vineyards and dwell securely when I execute judgments against all those who plunder them from all around them, and they shall know that I am the Lord their God.”

  9. Concerned Reader permalink
    March 9, 2015 9:38 pm

    Yes Bography, I am very very sure. Nobody in the hebrew bible ever addresses the “pre incarnate” Angel of the lord, or the “theophanies” from the Tanach in prayer, or seeks to make them a go between, a needed conduit, in their dealing with G-d. This phenomenon of making or having mediators is actively discouraged in Tanakh as we see in 2 kings 18:4. Prople may bow, may recieve a teaching, may ask an angel to pray to G-d on their behalf, but they never Never give service to anything but the father only.

    Nobody prays to G-d in the name of the burning bush, or in Moses’ name. A Christian (though he believes Jesus is G-d) is not content to leave Torah Jews (who already believe in G-d the father and observe his laws) alone. They insist that Jews must bow to the cross, must take communion, and that they must pray to Jesus as the one who saves them from their sin. A man is saved from his sin only if he changes his actions, a man does not die for anyone else’s sins. You can have all the faith in Jesus’ blood you want, but just like in temple sacrifices, they don’t do anything for the unrepentant. Sin is the transgression of the law.

    G-d and his name are one. If Jesus is one with G-d as the Church teaches, then to make Jesus’ human death a mediator too is an idolatrous contradiction. The verses in Daniel and Ezekiel that I mentioned illustrate the problem. Why is the prince of tyre in Ezekiel claiming to be El? Because his country (Lebanon) provided the cedars for the temple.

    This prince believes he deserves worship and service as G-d for doing a task which G-d the father assigned to his people to do. The one who is sent is not the sender. He does not deserve worship as a manifestation of G-d, or a “person.”

  10. March 9, 2015 9:51 pm

    “True evangelical will not read your article to learn. They most likely will read it if they have doubts or if they want to prove you are wrong.”

    Remi, I think that just about every Christian is naturally plagued by doubts and is deathly afraid to lose faith (in Jesus). I have not seen anything of the sort among Orthodox Jews; if something similar exists among them, it is nowhere as common.

    So much of the Christian theology and its understanding of G-d’s nature and plan naturally lends to this. When I announced that I no longer believed in Jesus, the emails I received and blogs post and comments written about my leaving the “fold” confirmed the fear in those believers. Many people expressed their understanding and sorrow that I was doomed. No doubt they were afraid to follow me in that direction lest they themselves be seduced by the “devil”.

    After all, so much of Christianity is based on sustaining a belief system. When one’s very faith, not just in Jesus, but also in very specific beliefs about him, determines one’s eternity, proving Jesus to oneself, not to mention to others, becomes paramount!

    This is exactly why apologetics (defense of Christian faith) is one of the foremost fields in Christian theology. Its biggest consumers are not unbelievers but Christians themselves. There are probably more Christian books (and today also websites) written in support of Christian doctrines and history than of any other sort. With all these apologetics, it may be surprising that blind faith is viewed as a virtue. Why? This is because many Christians, especially Evangelicals and their Messianic brethren, believe that G-d Himself implant that faith in Jesus into believers who are to be saved and that any sort of rational approach in trying to understand G-d by one’s own intellect is viewed as not “spiritual” and bound to end in failure (based on Matthew 11:25). This is why so many Christians (and Messianic Jews) come to faith in Jesus their teens (myself included) and some even earlier, before they can make full investigation of the claims.

  11. remi4321 permalink
    March 10, 2015 9:57 am

    Thank you CR for your words of encouragement. And you are right that worshipping Jesus as G-d makes no sense. Gene you are right also, if you teach your child “in the way” he will not leave it. Of course, the fear of hell and all the xtians doctrine will be in his mind already. That’s why I left in the first place, if I would have started with Genesis, I am convince that I would have arrived at a different conclusion about Jesus. We cannot prove him (god incarnate) from the tanakh. If it would only be for me, I would turn the page and never look back. In a way, I feel like Solomon, drawn by his wife to worship other gods. I know she intend good, but that how I feel. I will stop being discourage, and will continue reading my Bible..

    Thank you

  12. March 10, 2015 10:18 am

    “In a way, I feel like Solomon, drawn by his wife to worship other gods. I know she intend good, but that how I feel. I will stop being discourage, and will continue reading my Bible..”

    Remi, I have seen MANY spouses, wives specifically, both Jewish and Gentile born, coming to the same realization as their husbands. It may take longer for some. The truth about the One G-d of Israel is very powerful, but very few Christians today get confronted with it, very few come face to face with realization that to worship anyone or anything else is idolatry. They are afraid of it and would rather live in their Christian bubble. But even so, few will remain the same once they are challenged to be honest with what the Hebrew Bible, a book they respect as G-d’s word, actually says about the things they embraced and believe.

  13. Concerned Reader permalink
    March 10, 2015 12:43 pm

    The key Remi, is that even if it can be proven, that Jesus or anyone else was divine, the berometer according to the books (even Jesus himself) is the commandments, not whether someone Is divine or not, or whether they did miracles, or circumstances of their birth, etc..

  14. Darrell permalink
    February 26, 2017 6:07 pm

    Interesting conversation. I can see both sides and I believe you were talking past each other. First, I don’t believe than any prophet/deity/wise man should be judged strictly by his followers. Second and more importantly, Jesus did not claim to be just any prophet; he claimed to be YHWH incarnate. He was either the very being to whom we do owe worship or he was the biggest fraud this world has ever seen. Today we see some Jews and Christians admitting he was a great teacher but not actually G-d, and far too many Jews and Christians worshipping a host of other idols (Hollywood, sports, their own smarts… the list is endless). He was either who he said he is and deserves worship, not just respect, or he was the worst of the worst. Did he go about doing miracles or not? Did he preach righteousness or not?

  15. March 6, 2017 12:08 pm

    “He was either who he said he is and deserves worship, not just respect, or he was the worst of the worst.”

    I think there’s a third (and fourth and so on) option. He may had never claimed anything about himself that we read in the NT, but rather it was his later followers who did. Alternatively, if he expected to be worshiped as god while outwardly preaching “righteousness” and even performing “signs” and “miracles”, we can surmise that he was a false prophet, one who failed a test of a true prophet (Deuteronomy 13).

  16. March 9, 2017 6:00 pm

    “he claimed to be YHWH incarnate.”

    Where’s that Darrell? You listened too many preachers, Jesus never claimed to be G-d. Many places he actually said he was not!

    We also can add Deuteronomy 4, and say with certainty that G-d will not show up and “tabernacle” any man…

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