Daily Minyan

It all depends upon your interpretation, Gene. For example: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/throughout-the-book-of-genesis-the-pattern-of-gods-election-is-persistently-even-perversely-antinomian/

Throughout the book of Genesis, the pattern of God’s election is persistently, even perversely antinomian: Ever and again the elder to whom the birthright properly belongs is supplanted by the younger, whom God has chosen in defiance of all natural “justice.” This is practically the running motif uniting the whole text, from Cain and Abel to Manasseh and Ephraim. But—this is crucial—it is a pattern not of exclusion and inclusion, but of a delay and divagation that immensely widens the scope of election, taking in the brother “justly” left out in such a way as to redound to the good of the brother “unjustly” pretermitted. This is clearest in the stories of Jacob and of Joseph, and it is why Esau and Jacob provide so apt a typology for Paul’s argument. For Esau is not finally rejected; the brothers are reconciled, to the increase of both precisely because of their temporary estrangement. And Jacob says to Esau (not the reverse), “Seeing your face is like seeing God’s.”

And so Paul proceeds. In the case of Israel and the Church, election has become even more literally “antinomian”: Christ is the end of the law so that all may attain righteousness, leaving no difference between Jew and Gentile; thus God blesses everyone (10:11–12). As for the believing “remnant” of Israel (11:5), they are elected not as the number of the “saved,” but as the earnest through which all of Israel will be saved (11:26), the part that makes the totality holy (11:16). And, again, the providential ellipticality of election’s course vastly widens its embrace: For now, part of Israel is hardened, but only until the “full entirety” (pleroma) of the Gentiles enter in; they have not been allowed to stumble only to fall, however, and if their failure now enriches the world, how much more so will their own “full entirety” (pleroma); temporarily rejected for “the world’s reconciliation,” they will undergo a restoration that will be a “resurrection from the dead” (11:11–12, 15).

This, then, is the radiant answer dispelling the shadows of Paul’s grim “what if,” the clarion negative: There is no final “illustrative” division between vessels of wrath and of mercy; God has bound everyone in disobedience so as to show mercy to everyone (11:32); all are vessels of wrath so that all may be made vessels of mercy.

David B. Hart

Julian… I don’t think that the author of your linked article understands what the word “antinomian” means. Either way, your quote above merely confirms the premise of my post – Christianity’s “Israel” is not the Israel of the Jewish people.

Indeed, an Israel that worship Jesus is not Jewish any more. Not more than the Samaritan that the Syran put in Israel after they conquered the Northern Tribe (Ezra 4:1-2). An Israel with no priest, or priests that bring sacrifices only to remember Jesus death on the cross. Christian all have one objective, to convert the Jewish people, and in their view, all those who reject Jesus will be with the anti-christ and destroy before Jesus second coming. The remnant of real Israel (AKA the Messianic Jews) will pass through the tribulation, but those evil who refuse to bow to Jesus will follow the anti-christ. This does not looks like a beautiful future for any real Jew.

Israel is still chosen for what anyway? Hell? The chosen (those from the church) are blessed, the rest were harden for hell. Yes Dispensationalism is another non-sense.

“Israel is still chosen for what anyway?”

Chosen to give birth to a god-man savior of the world. Now that this has been accomplished, there is not really much left for Jews to do in the Christian economy but to accept Jesus when he returns. Since Jews, due to their “blindness”, trying to earn their way into heaven do not evangelize the world with the “gospel” like they were supposed to, leaving all the work to the “Church”, they are lazy harvesters. However, those few of them that remain alive when antichrist turns on them (after they first declare him “messiah” and worship him – and Christians think that Jews are OK with worshiping a “divine” human being as god) will be finally saved from their enemies and hell by Jesus himself (coming with this church to the rescue) and will collectively cry for being so blind and for killing him.

remi4321

And that is when we will realize the Jesus was really the Son of man of Daniel 9, deserving Worship and it was all this time fulfilled, but we just did not know about it.

prosistency

Reblogged this on prosistency.

Jim D.

“Christian all have one objective, to convert the Jewish people, and in their view, all those who reject Jesus will be with the anti-christ and destroy before Jesus second coming. The remnant of real Israel (AKA the Messianic Jews) will pass through the tribulation, but those evil who refuse to bow to Jesus will follow the anti-christ. This does not looks like a beautiful future for any real Jew.”

This is a very important point. Imagine a future, perhaps 200 – 500 years from now, in which many millions of Jews have been converted to belief in Jesus, leaving only a minority who staunchly refuse to accept him. By then you have not only billions of gentile believers growing increasingly frustrated with that last holdout group of Jews, millions of messianic Jews whose complaints against their own add legitimacy to gentile hatred for the group whose refusal is preventing the Second Coming. Does the Torah not make clear in the book of Joshua that the genocide of those who are unholy in the land is commanded by God? And if believers in Jesus are the legitimate Israel of God, then would they not think they are justified?

Even if things don’t pan out exactly in this way, the potential of a scenario along these lines is a frightening possibility.

“millions of messianic Jews”

Jim, there won’t ever be “millions of messianic Jews” no matter what the scenario. As a rule, “Messianic Jews” are a one (if even that, since most of the men marry non-Jewish women) or at most two (for a statistically insignificant minority) generations phenomenon.

remi4321

Millions of messianic Jews eating pork at their meeting with their non-jewish wives. That does not seem Kosher…

Remi, if Jesus made it clean, it’s clean and kosher indeed.

remi4321

And we should rebuke the MJ for not eating it, just like Paul. You have very little faith!

Jim D.

Gene, you make my point, albeit in a different way. When a messianic Jew intermarries with a Christian and their progeny are no longer Jewish, that reduces the Jewish population and removes that family line from the congregation. The result is the same, whether the grandchildren are messianic Jews or gentiles — they’re not Jews.

remi4321

That’s a good point anyway. If they are not jews, they are not part of the blessing anymore. The descendent of Jews that believed in Jesus in the first, second, tenth of 19th century are not Jewish. I doubt that too many are Christian, and if they are they are mostly Catholic, a sect that most evangelical would consider “unregenerate”. G-d promised that the Jewish people would have a remnant, the blessing of being a remnant is for those who do not believe in Jesus.

Food for thought for any Messianc/Christian out there…

KAVI

I have wondered about this topic of Jewishness– take my family for example, there is no question that I am not Jewish– but what about 5-generations or so ago when my forebears in Poland may have been considered very much so?

And, just think, if my mother had converted to Judaism before my birth– Voilà! I would be Jewish according to halakha!

How many Jews today can say with 100% certainty there is no “taint” in the genealogical line since 70 AD?

Now I’m not really here to argue one way or another– but doesn’t it seem odd that a according to halakha, one can be 100% Jew and 100% atheist?

Jim D.

The scale of the impact that Christianity will ultimately have on the Jewish community is impossible to predict at this time. I recognize that the majority of Christians do not evangelize, however the charge to do so — “to the Jew first and also to the Greek” — is solidly integrated into New Testament teachings. Thus, incorporated into Christianity is the push to replace Judaism.

Over centuries past, Jews were forced to convert or killed. Today, the effort is shrewd and non-violent, but results in the quiet disappearance of Jews through conversion. The tactics have changed but the end result is not dissimilar.

I recognize the goodness and the good intentions of Christian believers. Like differentiating between a good person who does “bad” things, I don’t have anything against Christians on a personal level.

However, given what we know and see, I consider Christianity to be an existential threat to the Jewish people.

Yehuda Yisrael

July 18, 2015

Kavi, King David’s great grandmother, Ruth, was a Moabite convert…So that should put things into perspective for you…

Also, on the other end of the spectrum, Korach was Moses’s first cousin…

To be an Israelite can be a choice through conversion…or you can be born into it like me….But being born into it simply means that you are obligated to keep the Mitzvot…Thats the difference between a Jew and a gentile. I am obligated to keep Torah. You aren’t obligated to keep kosher, shabbos, etc.

KAVI

Shalom!

In Israel, statistics reveal a largely ‘non-religious’ society where the majority of Jews do not practice Orthodox Judaism.

In contrast, we find increasing incidences of Haredi bullying, brutality, and discrimination against this societal secularism.

And yet we also find continued police brutality against Jewish Ethiopians and the police turning a blind eye to criminal acts of the Haredi.

Israel society promotes LGBT events and a large majority of the Israeli population support gay marriage — an indication of a ever increasing disrespect for G-d’s holiness that mimics the practices of other countries.

Although some of the more moderate Israeli Orthodox are trying to find unity with their ‘lost’ U.S. Reformed or Conservative brethren– without agreement regarding the Oral Law, it does not appear to be possible.

With these thoughts, several questions come to mind–

[*] Has Israel become more of a Zionist, secular nation rather than a holy nation following the G-d of Israel? If so, is Israel truly a ‘Jewish’ State?

[*] Does it seem reasonable to identify ‘Jewishness’ with traditional Rabbinic ‘Judaism’ when–
— the rabbinate is divided regarding who they consider to be a Jew
— atheism has become acceptable
— gross immorality has become acceptable
— divorce has become easy
— abortion has become acceptable
— a congregation could technically be 100% composed of white, anglo-saxon protestants who have converted according to halakha?

[*] Even if a modern Nazi extremist might categorize me as a filthy Mischling– why would I also be considered ‘Enemy #1’ by the Orthodox, Ultra-orthodox, etc simply because I am one of the moral, ‘orthodox’ Mashiachim in contrast to the ‘more acceptable’, non-religious, militantly atheistic or grossly immoral, halichic Jews?

[*] Why care about replacement theology of christians when in Israel– the fundamental tenets of 1st millennial Rabbinic Judaism is now eroded [‘replaced’] by professing Jews who are non-religious AND/OR racist, discriminatory, lawless, immoral, or atheistic?

PS> I am not saying under any, ANY circumstance that 1st millennial Judaism in and of itself does not try to practice historically what many would consider “good” deeds.

PSS> I am not saying that the sages and the Oral Law have nothing to teach the Mashiachim who follow the teachings of Moses and the Prophets.

PSSS> I am fully supportive of Israel’s statehood and believe the disputed territories should be officially annexed.
________________________________________________

Kavi, we get it – Jews are terrible. Would you mind telling us which people are better than Jews, in your opinion?

Kavi, I think you have quite a few misunderstandings concerning the “divisions” within Judaism. First of all, Orthodox Jews are not “divided” concerning “who is a Jew” concerning Jews who are born into the religion. If your mother is Jewish then you are Jewish…Period. Virtually all orthodox Jews agree on this standard.

Your misunderstanding comes into play when you look at Conservative Jews Reform Jews and even secular Jews as a form of “replacement theology.” Let me explain:

Most Conservative and Reform Rabbis are quite cognizant that Orthodox Jews don’t accept their standards of kashrut, shomer Shabbos, conversion, etc. However, I there is an effort to acknowledge the words of Torah/Chazal in light of Conservative and Reform Judaism. When it comes down to it, Reform and Conservative Judaism really aren’t defined movements. Growing up, I attended Conservative Shuls, Reform Temples, Orthodox Shuls, and Chabad Houses. All of the denominations read from the Torah on Saturday morning and read a Haftorah afterwards. All read the same Parsha each week. (Reform sometimes would skimp out on parts of the Parsha, but they still made an effort.) All made an effort to daven the Shacharit and Musaf Shabbat services with a minyan, although conservative and reform were more egalitarian in their approach. The Conservative movement has become closer with the Reform movement going into the 21st century, so there has been some blending over the past few decades. However, the Baal Teshuva movement among Orthodox Jews has been growing stronger as well. One of my best friends who I have known since preschool, grew up extremely Reform. He didn’t even know what tefillin were by the time we reached high school! We were in a non-denominational Jewish youth group called BBYO when we were in high school, and one summer, he went on a summer trip where he was exposed to Orthodox Judaism in a relaxed manner. After the trip, he seemed more open to Judaism, so I invited him to go to my shul with me. (My father and I attended a Modern Orthodox/Traditional shul most of the time on Saturday mornings.) We started going to shul together, and long story short, my friend is now Haradi Orthodox and married with 3 kids. (Baruch Hashem!)

I’ll also have you know that for a short period of time in High School, my now Haradi friend considered “messianic Judaism.” (He was dating an evangelical christian at the time.) Needless to say, he quickly saw the silliness of the NT and the absurdity of the supposed messiahship of your jeezer…)

But the moral of the story is this: Reform/Conservative Judaism might not be ideal, but they give Jews a foundation to grow upon. They learn Hebrew in Jewish school. They learn about and attempt to observe Yom Kippur, Pesach, Sukkot, Shavuot, Rosh Hashanna, even Tu Bishvat! Sure, the Reform movement might have hijacked “Tikun Olam” and turned it into a phrase synonymous with the liberal agenda, but they still acknowledge that their observance of the Mitzvot is typically lesser than other movements. Same with Conservative Jews. Reform Rabbis typically don’t go around telling you “Don’t even try to keep Shabbos! That’s not relevant to us anymore!” They won’t tell you that the Torah was “fulfilled” by some dead guy on a stick who supposedly turned into a zombie. They won’t tell you that the Mitzvot of the Torah were just a temporary mandate that were only given to us to show us that no matter how hard we try, we will never be able to do them, so we need some dead guy on a stick to “shed blood on our behalf” and then come back as a zombie to “save us.”

No…Reform and Conservative Jews encourage the practicing of the Mitzvot, albeit in a watered down fashion. They daven the same prayers as Orthodox Jews, although some of the services are shortened and a couple words are added to the Amidah to include the Matriarchs and such. All of the movements acknowledge that Hashem is not to be worshipped as a form in any fashion, a clear distinction for your understanding of the jeezer.

Reform and Conservative Judaism potentially serve as stepping stones for Jewish growth. They acknowledge the importance of Written and Oral Torah. This is in contrast to your christian bastardization of Judaism, which requires the worship of the jeezer, a man who walked the earth, as a god, and more often than not, discourages the observance of the Mitzvot in context with Rabbinical teachings.

Shalom

KAVI

Gene,
Secularism is everywhere in the world and increasing [even in Iran]– it cannot be escaped even by those who make aliyah.

My questions should not sidestepped- the issues and concerns are validly being raised in the U.S., the U.K., and Israel itself.

BTW– True Mashiachim never hate the Jews. After all, HaMashiach is Jewish– whether one believes He came two millennia ago or not.

_________________________

Also Kavi, you brought up “secular Jews” and how they are “accepted” among Orthodox Jews as Jews. You then contrast this to the disdain that Orthodox Jews and other denominations of Judaism have for “Messianic Jews.” The reason for this is simple:

Secular Jews typically aren’t evangelists for their cause. Many have a nonchalant attitude about religion and aren’t actively trying to “convert” people to secularism. Much like Reform and Conservative Judaism, “secularism” isn’t a defined movement…

I’ve met Jews who identify as “Conservative” Jews who will willingly eat bacon, but would stop everything to go to services on Yom Kippur. I’ve also met Jews who identify as “Reform” who wear tefillin every morning.

I’ve also met people who identify as “cultural/secular Jews” who can lead Pesach Sedarim. When you’re looking at the movements from the outside looking in, like you are Kavi, you aren’t getting the full picture.

There are also efforts made by Aish and Chabad to try and combat atheism among Jews. Gerald Schroeder, Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen, and Rabbi Dovid Gottleib are famous for this.

At the end of the day, secularism plagues all religions. This isn’t unique to Judaism.

Shalom

Also, Kavi, concerning secular Jews and Israel, there is a popular opinion among more Haradi Jews, including Chabad, that secular Zionism itself can serve as a stepping stone for religious growth among secular Jews.

Think about it: Identifying Israel as the homeland for all Jews, gives even the most secular of Jews a connection to Torah. Israel is the place where King David ruled as king. It is the place where our ancestors traveled to after 40 years in the desert. It is our history.

Even if a secular Jew denies the existence of G-d, by acknowledging Israel as a Jewish state, they cannot escape the religious connotation associated with the Kotel, the Dead Sea, Sfat, the Negev, Masada, etc.

That’s what Birthright is all about…

Shalom

KAVI

Yehuda,
Thank you for your comments– I appreciate that your responses came with added the flavor of personal experience :)

” True Mashiachim never hate the Jews”

Kavi, “True Mashiachim” (a.k.a. Christians) destroy Jews along with all their progeny by seeking to introduce them to their detestable idolatry of worshiping a dead man as god, which cuts off all such Jews both from their G-d and their people, which is far worse than mere hatred.

KAVI

Gene,
Could you elaborate further– Do you mean the true Mashiachim destroy ‘Jews’ or ‘Rabbinic Judaism’?

Do atheistic or militantly immoral Jews receive the same contempt?

The halichic ‘Jewish’ Mashiachim have congregations throughout Israel– including Yerushalayim. You are not one of the extremist mindset who would bully or brutalize one these ‘lost’ brethren [as some of the Haredi have done]?

Please explain.

________________________________

Jim D.

“True Mashiachim never hate the Jews”
— Right. They just love ’em to death..

Kavi, Gene didn’t refer to “rabbinic Judaism”. Which, by the way, you as all Christians do, discredit Rabbinic Judaism. Gene said “Jews”, and that’s exactly what he meant.

As a believer, you are not able to understand Gene’s point because you believe that Yeshua is God, and belief in him is the true and ultimate fulfillment of Judaism. Given that mindset, Gene’s statement doesn’t compute.

But suppose a Jew believes Zeus is God of the Universe. He marries a believing wife and together they raise children who also believe and worship Zeus, and their children do the same. Are those generations Jewish? No, they are not. They have been lost to the Jewish congregation.

As a believer, you can only understand Gene’s remark purely as an intellectual exercise, on a “let’s suppose just for a moment” basis.

Jim D.

(Sorry Gene, I jumped your thread.)

Jim, you expressed my view succinctly:)

KAVI

Jim and Gene,
According to the Tanakh, where do you find that a Jew who believes in Zeus or Baal is no longer a Jew?

Again, if anyone replies. . . please quote from the Tanakh.

_______________________

Jim D.

“According to the Tanakh, where do you find that a Jew who believes in Zeus or Baal is no longer a Jew? Again, if anyone replies. . . please quote from the Tanakh.”

But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts defiantly reviles the LORD: that person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has spurned the word of the LORD and violated His commandment, that person shall be cut off — he bears his guilt.

— Numbers 15:30-31 NJPS

This refers to wanton and willful violation of God’s commandments. Inadvertent sin is forgiven by other means.

To be cut off (“karet”) is a divine punishment, to be enacted by God. Many violations are clearly subject to punishment by the congregation, such as murder. The rest are subject to this consequence. Now let’s turn to one of these applicable commandments:

… and curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn away from the path that I enjoin upon you this day and follow other gods whom you have not experienced.

— Deuteronomy 11:28 NJPS

Again, the operative here in Deut 11:28 is the experience of the Children of Israel, not whether jeezer was hanging out somewhere in the clouds.

Now, if you want to argue that Deut 11:28 isn’t a specifically-stated commandment, then you are straining gnats again. This refers back to explicitly-stated commandment not to worship other gods. Even if you want to be literal about it, the violator is still subject to curse. Apparently not what God wants. But it refers straight back to the 1st of the Ten Commandments. Thus, the violator will be cut off.

And in fact, karet is exactly what happens. The family lines of Jews who turn to worship JC are cut off. By the third generation there are no longer Jews in that family line.

“a Jew who believes in Zeus or Baal is no longer a Jew”

No, that person is still a Jew, although this is not explicit in the Tanakh itself (and indeed, elsewhere G-d warns that a Jew who commits gross sins such as idolatry will be cut off from his people). Our Rabbis, whom you love to deride as illegitimate Jews, derived this from Joshua 7:11 where G-d says ““Israel has sinned”. The Rabbis pointed out that even a sinning Israel is still called “Israel” by G-d. However, while Israel is preserved by G-d as a whole, the unrepentant sinners (i.e. idolaters) are cut off from their people Israel for eternity; they will not be part of the congregation of G-d nor will they inherit the World to Come.

Jim D.

Right. An important distinction. And this is also borne out in current practice by the fact that an idolatrous Jew can repent and does not have to go through conversion to be considered rightfully a Jew, although the repentant would be required to publicly disavow his belief in the foreign god he previously worshiped.

However, the unrepentant idolater may or may not see judgement in his lifetime, or may face judgement when he dies — that is up to God. But we see the generational effects of unrepentant Jews who worship J: their family lineage is eventually cut off from the Jewish congregation — as promised.

An interesting note is that the Torah makes a distinction between the one who worships a foreign god for himself, and the one who teaches others to do the same. While the first one will suffer karet as described, the one who teaches others to worship a false god (which would include J) is the greater sinner: the penalty is death. See Deut. 13:2-6, 7-12 and 13-19.

KAVI

Jim,
As Gene correctly mentions, there is nowhere in the Tanakh that explicitly says a Jew’s sin permanently removes his status as Jew– only their status in the Olam Ha-ba:

So,
According to HaShem, which is worse:

— atheism or faith in Zeus?

— homosexuality or divination?

— pride or idolatry?

Hint> I Samuel 15
___________________________________

Gene,
I would never say the rabbis are not legitimate Jews for the same reason as you stated– HaShem’s promises to the Jews are never revoked. All Jews remain so regardless of their belief– and yes, they may indeed have no inheritance in the Olam Ha-ba, but they remain Jews.

If I may ask– according to halakha, does not the Orthodox rabbinate agree that a halachic Jew may change his/her faith without impacting their status as a Jew?

___________________________________

“If I may ask– according to halakha, does not the Orthodox rabbinate agree that a halachic Jew may change his/her faith without impacting their status as a Jew?”

No, that’s not the case. It’s only nominally that an apostate is viewed as still a Jew, but it’s precisely his “status” as a Jew that would be most severely affected. Such a Jew would be viewed in halacha as a non-Jew in almost all regards and is treated as such as far a community is concerned (e.g. another Jew may not marry such a person, an idolater may not be called up to Torah in the synagogue, an idolater may not act as either a witness or judge in a beit din, Jews may not associate with such a person). In the Torah and during the times of an independent Sanhedrin, a Jew who became an idolater would be put to death by the Jewish court. In the times of the exile, an idolater would at least be excommunicated and expelled from the Jewish community. The only Jewish benefit that would remain is that an apostate may repent and return to the Jewish fold without conversion.

“According to HaShem, which is worse:
— atheism or faith in Zeus?
— homosexuality or divination?
— pride or idolatry?”

The word your Christian bible translated as “pride” is actually arrogance or stubbornness, specifically in regards to refusal to do what G-d commanded and doing what someone else demanded. This is why it is equated to idolatry, because it has the same exact effect – ignoring what the true G-d said and listening instead to some other “authority”. Which is what you are doing now, along with all those who worship Jesus as their god.

Jim D.

“As Gene correctly mentions, there is nowhere in the Tanakh that explicitly says a Jew’s sin permanently removes his status as Jew– only their status in the Olam Ha-ba”

Are you trying to say that it’s okay for a Jew to violate God’s first commandment? That they are still a Jew? Why then, I guess it’s okay for a Jew to be a murderer, right? After all, they would still be a Jew.

And what is a Jew, oh idolater who wraps himself in a Jewish cloak, like a wolf in a sheepskin? Do you really think you can teach Jews the lessons of God in Tanakh? I think you have demonstrated in this blog over and over again that you simply cannot.

1 Samuel 15:22-23 teaches very clearly that following God’s commandments, such as:
“Do not follow other gods whom you have not experienced.”,
(which includes Jesus) is more important than sacrifice. And doesn’t your Book of Fiction claim that Jesus was God’s final sacrifice? Hm. God’s commandments are supreme.

You simply cannot avoid that the verses you use to try to justify your idolatry always turn back against you.

KAVI

Jim and Gene,
Based on a lack of response, it seems safe to say you both believe:

[] a halachic Jewish atheist is equivalent to a halachic Jewish idolater;

[] a halachic LGBT Jew remains a halachic Jew [albeit a ‘nominal’ one].

_____________________

Which, in a roundabout way, gets back to one of my original questions:

[*] Why care about replacement theology of christians when in Israel itself, the fundamental tenets of 1st millennial Rabbinic Judaism are being ‘replaced’ by an increasingly secular society where the majority of professing Jews are largely non-religious [i.e., not truly observant, or grossly immoral, or covetous, or atheistic, etc] ?

_____________________

Jim D.

“Based on a lack of response, it seems safe to say you both believe:
[] a halachic Jewish atheist is equivalent to a halachic Jewish idolater;
[] a halachic LGBT Jew remains a halachic Jew [albeit a ‘nominal’ one].”

I left questions directed to Gene to him to answer. I answered thequestions directed to me.

“[*] Why care about replacement theology of christians when in Israel itself, the fundamental tenets of 1st millennial Rabbinic Judaism are being ‘replaced’ by an increasingly secular society where the majority of professing Jews are largely non-religious [i.e., not truly observant, or grossly immoral, or covetous, or atheistic, etc] ?”

I agree that secularism is a threat to the Jewish community, and a much larger threat than Christian missionary efforts at this point in time. There are those who are attempting to address that problem and many are quite capable of doing so. Far fewer are those who truly understand the Christian deception, and I am one of those. We all choose our battles.

“I agree that secularism is a threat to the Jewish community, and a much larger threat than Christian missionary efforts at this point in time. There are those who are attempting to address that problem and many are quite capable of doing so. Far fewer are those who truly understand the Christian deception, and I am one of those. We all choose our battles.”

Absolutely…. or to put it another way, just because there’s AIDS, doesn’t mean we can afford to ignore Ebola.

” a halachic Jewish atheist is equivalent to a halachic Jewish idolater;”

No, there’s indeed a big difference between the two. The first one simply doesn’t believe or no longer believes in the G-d of Israel (which could also sometimes be caused by very traumatic events, such as the Holocaust), while the other actually actively worships another god and teaches other Jews to do likewise. The first one is a “fool” (Psalm 14:1), while the second one is an idol worshiper. The Bible doesn’t have much to say about an atheist, but the idolater is prominently featured on its pages.

Simply put, I do not see any other religion that try to convert the Jewish people more than evangelical Christianity. I think that Jews are for Judaism, not against Christianity, but that’s the truth, only you try to convert them. If you would succeed and all would believe in Yeshua, there would be no more Judaism. Yes, maybe for a few generation the Messianic Jews would marry in between themselves and stay Jewish, but that would take no time to die. It is not better or worst than a Jew that would be a Buddhist. The truth is Christianity is a treat to Judaism. Worst, Messianic Judaism is built to specifically target the Jewish people by pretending they are Jewish. I understand that your intention is not to convert the Jewish people, but that they may escape Hell and know their “savior”. But just as Rome tried to have a unified religion, Christianity seek the same. It is just built for you to think that it is not the status of Nebuchadnezzar, but Christianity was chosen as religion for the purpose of attracting the rebellious Jews into the one state religion of that time, Rome.

Anybody can think they could be from a lost tribe of Israel or of Jewish lineage Kavi. That’s why it is important not to convert. Once somebody leave Judaism, his children will not be Jewish and will not know they are Jewish. In the end they lost the blessing of being Jewish. You, me and lots of other people may come from Jewish lineage, but it really does not matter, we are not Jewish. I heard that in my congregation “I am Jewish”, “my last name was Jewish”, “I am from a lost Tribe”, “I am Jewish in my heart”, or weather other non-sense. And I am just thinking “No you’re not, you pretend to be Jewish, that’s all”.

Jim D.

“I understand that your intention is not to convert the Jewish people, but that they may escape Hell and know their “savior”.”

Remi, this is an honest question: Is there a difference? After all, isn’t “knowing their savior” the same as converting? Or do you mean that the intention to convert as such means the primary motivation is simply to move a Jew out of the “Jewish Club” and get him over into the “Christian Club”.

A Christian who clams that a Jew is not converting to anything when he embraces a belief in Jesus as his god and savior doesn’t really understand when being a Jew is all about.

This Christian understanding that a Jew is not converting to Christianity is thoroughly imbued with Replacement Theology. This is because a Christian (or a “Messianic”) believes that Christianity (or a “Messianic Judaism”) is the “New Judaism” (or Judaism of Jesus) while the Judaism of the Jews is a false or at best obsolete and incomplete religion that has missed its mark in the absence of Jesus. So, the Christian/Messianic believes that a Jew is simply being “grafted back on” (to quote Paul) to his own “olive tree”, i.e. doing what is supposedly perfectly natural to a Jew. That a Jew should start worshiping a deified man as his god, that a Jew should separate himself from his people to join the new “messianic community”, that a Jew should compromise the observance of the commandments given by G-d to Israel, chief of which is not to have any other god before the True G-d (as idolatry that is Christianity by its very nature demands) – THAT, according to Christianity, is the Jew’s “own olive tree”!

I think that Constantine intention in the fourth century was to chose a religion that would be attractive to the Jewish People. They definitively tried to have a unified religion to have a unified people and be stronger. If you belong to a nation and have the same religion, then you will fight for that nation. Constantine, knowing that the Jewish people were not going to convert to any pagan religion decided to go for a sect of Judaism that was popular amongst Gentiles. Gentiles are happy, Jews as well (in theory) to have a Abrahamic religion that still worship the god (Jesus) of Israel. You let people time to chose, but after a few years force everybody to join the band wagon. Could he have found a better religion for his plan? Many Jews felt for it, then he only have to force the rest. Kiss the sword or the cross. Today, thought, it is a bite different. Honest messianic really believe that a complete Jew is a Jew that believe in Jesus. Nevertheless, they still help in Rome’s plan without knowing it.

I think that most New testament book were chosen, and sometimes changed, to have that idea in mind. Good citizen who will obey, one religion, everything for you to accept the idea without speaking. Add the punition of Hell if you do not join and tell everybody that you are from the evil one if you do not join. Hey I am not from satan, I want heaven. I feel like it is a sophisticated scheme that was well thought. Finally add “prophecies” that proves Jesus as icing on the cake. (don’t worry, nobody can read Hebrew to check if they are really true!)

KAVI

_______________________________

An atheist is a bit more than just a ‘fool’– they are:
— corrupt, and
— have committed abominable deeds, and
— completely devoid of good.

[**] Psalm 14:1
“The fool said in his heart, “There is no God”; they have dealt corruptly; they have committed abominable deeds; none does good.”

HaShem, as Judge, must commit both idolater and atheist to Gehenna for eternity.

______________________________

Kavi, being an idolater yourself, be careful what you wish for!

Jim D.

So what are those deeds Kavi? You seem to know.

I’ve known atheists (defined as someone who says they don’t believe in a god) who were very good and kind people who had many good deeds. And conversely, I’ve known ardent followers of Jesus who were horrible people. Doesn’t fit neatly into your little formula, right, Kavi?

Gene there were not “true” follower of Jesus, that’s all. All true Christians are perfect.

KAVI

Friends,
I’m just quoting straight from the Tanakh as to what HaShem thinks of atheists–

Anyone is certainly free to disagree with the One in heaven who wrote it– but wouldn’t doing so be like those we found in I Samuel 15:22-23?

_________________________

remi4321

Nobody is atheist here… To convert an atheist may be as futile as trying to convince a Christian. Everybody should try to do what please G-d and for the rest, G-d is Judge. I don’t think that it is the point to point fingers to others, Jews or Gentiles have a free will to believe or not in the G-d of Heaven. I know Tel Aviv has a pride parade, so has Vancouver and many American Cities. Christianity and Islam has been know for their evangelistic tactics and it works well. Maybe we should do the same with others sins in the bible? Or should we force people to follow a specific religion? People in America/Canada/Israel are free to believe and practice whatever they want (as long as it is not against somebody else will). There are moral christian, jews and atheist, for the rest, G-d is Judge.

Jim D.

Sure, let’s see what the TRUE meaning of this psalm is.

Kavi interprets David’s complaints literally, as did Paul in Romans 3:9, instead of recognizing that the key verses here are poetic hyperbole. In other words, David exaggerates. (So did Jesus, therefore the Christian can hardly argue that hyperbole doesn’t exist.) It is a common device in biblical poetry.

Now Kavi interprets verse 1 as meaning that the person who believes that God does not exist is the fool mentioned, and that such persons commit abominable deeds. Right? But this is not the correct meaning at all.

By the way, this psalm is the bedrock of Paul’s argument for the necessity of Jesus, and is the first step along the “Romans Road”, the name for the popular evangelistic method for presenting certain verses from the NT in a certain order, to “convict” the unbeliever that he/she is drenched in sin that only Jesus can expiate on their behalf.

So, in Romans 3:9, Paul declares:

“for we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written,
‘There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God…” (NIV)

Here’s the problem: According to Paul, “no one” means, literally “no one”. But what about himself — David, who is the speaker? Does that include him, too? Is David complaining that he also is not righteous? But God said he was.

To resolve the riddle, we simply need to read a little further. When we get to verse 4, we see that David identifies the people he’s complaining about in the first three verses:

“Are they so witless, all those evildoers,
who devour my people as they devour food,
and do not invoke the Lord?” (NJPS)

What? Wait a minute! So the folks David was complaining about in verses 1 – 3 are specifically people who are attacking David’s people, Israel!

Ohhhh, so he’s not including himself or his people, he’s directing his complaints toward others who are attacking him. Then why would he say “no one does good” and that “all mankind is corrupt”, etc, etc?

Answer: Poetic hyperbole.

It’s like when someone is so upset about being rejected or ignored they often might way, “No one loves me!”. Of course this person is saying that to her mother, who certainly loves her.

It’s hyperbole, simple as that.

———————–

Secondly, as to Kavi’s specific misinterpretation of “There is no God” in verse 1, it doesn’t mean the people attacking Israel are atheists and that this is the main point of the verse — no! It’s that they think they can attack Israel wantonly, assuming there is no God who is going to protect them.

That’s why David writes in verse 4 “all the workers of wickedness, do they not understand?” They don’t realize that the God of Israel is there and will be greeting them when they come, to their great surprise:

“There they will be seized with fright,
for God is present in the circle of the righteous.”(14:5 NJPS)

———————-

But because Paul didn’t know, speak or read Hebrew, and had never seen the Psalms come alive in their native language, he just didn’t get it. He took it literally, and that changed the actual meaning. Like Kavi.

So not only is Kavi completely misunderstanding the text, he has built a theological imperative on it: “HaShem, as Judge, must commit both idolater and atheist to Gehenna for eternity.”

Kavi: Might be good for you to actually learn Hebrew and understand the true meaning of the text before you start slinging your empty Hebrew words and your lessons around as if you know what you’re talking about.

PS: “for God is present in the circle of the righteous.” Meaning those who live according to God’s word in the Torah (as it always means) — not “those who believe in the jeezer”.

KAVI

Friends,
There is no need for hyperbole in Psalm 14 or Psalm 53– the wicked have always worked their evil against the righteous ever since Gan Eden when satan initiated the fall of mankind. After which quickly followed Cain murdering righteous Abel, and so on and on throughout the ages. . .

____________________________________

Jim D.

Well Kavi, I see you are the ultimate authority in correct interpretation of Tanakh. Must be nice to have an ego as large and unfettered as yours.

But Israel is the “generation of the righteous”. That does not fit Paul’s comment. The Righteous is the one that walk in the way of the L-rd, not the one that believe in the Jesus. The righteous throughout the book of psalms refers to those who keep the Law of the L-rd, which make the simple wise and is a light on our steps. It is not a curse and people can be righteous without Jesus. That whole precept that Paul invented is nowhere in the scripture. Judge me according to my righteousness, said David. G-d hates the wicked but bless the righteous. The G-d whose anger is for a moment (not forever and ever and ever) but his mercies endures forever. You look like the one who say “there is no help for him in G-d” because we do not believe in your Jesus, but that is not true, G-d is with the generation of the righteous (not sinless as Paul wants you to believe)

Jim D.

Actually, its not really ego, its limitation. You just don’t get that you don’t get it.

remi4321

I often hear that story of G-d being a righteous G-d and we deserve to go to hell forever. Then Jesus appears in the court and say that he will pay the price instead of us. And that makes god just and the justifier. Hey, I could go in any court of law in North America and ask the judge to serve the sentence instead of a murderer. They would all, without exception say NO. Why? because that would not be justice, that would be Justice corruption, and that G-d hates that! So all your non-sense that we are ALL sinners and deserve hell and that only Jesus can save use is not in scriptures. Look at Ezekiel 18. Jesus is not there again.

Julian

July 24, 2015

If, as the New Testament teaches, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice that all previous sacrifices merely foreshadowed, then there has not been a need for further animal sacrifices. Thus, for Jewish people, all that is needed is repentance and doing righteousness. Their sins have been removed by the Lamb of God, and they have been cleansed by his blood, so that they may serve HaShem with a pure heart. Thus, the reason God has not provided a third Temple for them for nearly two thousand years, is that their Messiah is already their third Temple. And I think this is true, whether or not they realize that he is.

Gentile Christians have pointed to Matthew 27:25, “…his blood be upon us and our children…” as an indication that the Jewish people are cursed. But I do not think Matthew meant it this way. In Matthew 26:28, Jesus said that his blood was the blood of the covenant. Jesus is saying that just as the other sacrifices were foreshadowings of his perfect sacrifice, so was the sacrifice of the covenant that was sprinkled on the children at Israel at Mt. Sinai. So Matthew is saying that by indicating that they accept Jesus’ blood upon themselves and their children, it is being confirmed that the Jewish people are indeed the people of the covenant.

Gentile Christians are included within the covenant of Israel by being joined to their Messiah, who is Israel par excellence. But the people of Israel have already been included in that covenant, which has been made perfect by the Messiah’s fulfilling of all righteousness. Or so I think Matthew should be interpreted.

Jim D.

July 25, 2015

Hi Julian,

First, although I completely disagree with the NT, I want to say that I personally appreciate your desire to reinterpret Matthew in a light that is more favorable to Jews.

I would even offer an extension of this line of thinking:

For those who believe Jesus was the the final sacrifice to cleanse mankind of sin, it actually makes no sense to look with disdain and hatred toward Jews for the Crucifixion (putting aside for the moment who was actually responsible).

I’m sure I’m not the first to point this out — although I have yet to see this made by anyone else, anywhere else — but just consider this:

If Jesus had lived to a ripe old age and died naturally in his sleep, would he have been considered a sacrifice? If he had died of disease, would his blood have atoned? In order for him to be a sacrifice, his blood had to be shed — am I correct?

But what if some robbers from Egypt kiled him on the road? Would that suffice? Could any gentiles, including the Romans (who I do believe we’re the sole participants in the murder), have killed Jesus and the killing be considered a proper sacrifice according to the God of Israel? Do you see where I’m going with this?..

Therefore, the believer, by virtue of the fact that he is a believer, is obliged to regard the Jews as the only ones who could (unwittingly) effect their salvation through shedding the atoning blood of Jesus. There is no other way.

So rather than hate Jews for killing Jesus, believers should hold Jews in high regard — as God’s chosen instrument for bringing salvation to all mankind.

Now I know my Jewish friends here may be aghast at my writing anything in support of the story that Jews killed Jesus (which I do not believe), and that I’m putting forth an outrageous suggestion that God would use us to sacrifice any person for religious purposes (and as a Jew I absolutely reject the idea), but if one follows the Christian line if thinking, is it really so far off? I think this argument fits Christain theology perfectly, and one can even find verses in the Gospels that are synchronous.

But, more to my purpose in proposing this: If Christians had thought this way from the beginning, the world would not have witnessed centuries of Jewish persecution, including the Holocaust.

Julian

July 25, 2015

Well said, Jim.

Hi Julian, I don’t think that your point of view can fit with the NT scriptures: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”

According to that passage, those who do not believe in Jesus, like the Jewish people and myself, are cursed by your god. That’s why it has been pushed on the jewish people, whether forcibly or convincingly.

The truth, Jesus or Yeshua could not be an accepted sacrifice.

Leviticus 17:8-9
8 “Say to them: Anyone from the house of Israel or from the foreigners who live among them who offers a burnt offering or a sacrifice 9 but does not bring it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to sacrifice it to the Lord, that person must be cut off from his people.

Nowhere a male lamb ever was sacrificed for sin. The passover lamb was NOT a sin sacrifice. The goat of Yom Kippur was never sacrifice for all the sins of Israel (the one sacrifice is for the sins of the priest), the one that goes out of the camp, takes the sins (and that goat is not sacrifice at all).

There is no sacrifice (kroban) for willing sin.

Remi, the explanation from those Christians who have realized that Jesus can’t actually be a Torah-based sacrifice is that Jesus was a “new” sort of “non-literal” spiritual sacrifice that G-d had to provide (to appease Himself… by killing Himself), since the Torah-based sacrifices were ineffectual for the sins of mankind. So, G-d “had to” make something very different, not in any way based on Torah or found in the Bible as required to pay for anyone sins (so, don’t bother looking for support in the Torah for Jesus’ sacrifice – it’s not there, because it’s “new”).

Gene, Stop kidding, we were wrong all this time!

18“Forget the former things;
do not dwell on the past.
See, I am doing a new thing! (AKA Jesus, forget the rest of the text meaning, forget the rest of the Tanakh, I found a proof for Jesus, the new thing! It’s there in the book of Isaiah, the gost told me, he opened my eyes)

He also told me that Isaiah 7:1 to 13 talks about Ahab and it’s 500 BCE, then Isaiah 7:14 is Jesus birth -2 BCE, then the rest of Isaiah 7 and 8 is back 500 BCE, then Isaiah 9:1 is Jesus ministry 30 CE, then 9:2 to 5 is back 470 BCE, then 9:6-7 is Jesus birth again! 2 BCE, then 9:11 is back with Resin, (the same guy that was on Isaiah 7!) (470 BCE)

You really need the gost to reveal that!

Seriously Julian, do you have any scriptural reason to believe the Jesus was an accepted sacrifice?

Julian

By “scriptural reason” I assume you mean from the Hebrew Bible. I would say Isaiah 53:10.

Yes, Jesus was the goat that was sent out into the wilderness to Azazel, which most modern scholars say should be translated “fierce god.” Since there is only one God to whom we sacrifice, then Azazel should be seen as representative of the demonic world. The goat was returning the sins of the people to their original source, breaking whatever connection or claim the demonic had on them.

Thus, just as the high priest handed the goat over to Azazel, the high priest handed Jesus over to the Romans, the human agents of the demonic. By crucifying and hanging Jesus on a tree, the demons hoped that God would keep his word and curse Jesus. But how would God curse his innocent Son? By placing all the sins of Israel, and of the whole world on him. Thus he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of Israel, and of the whole world.

And now his blood of the covenant covers all Israel, and all who will join themselves to Israel by being joined to her Messiah.

Paul tells us that a partial hardening has come upon Israel, so that the Gentiles will be saved. And this makes perfect sense. For if Israel had accepted their Messiah, then the Gentiles never would have been willing to believe in an obviously Jewish movement. It is only because most of Israel rejected Jesus that he looked attractive to the Gentiles. This was God’s doing, so that all will be saved. When Jesus returns, Israel will see the one they rejected and mourn, but God will turn their mourning into gladness and joy. For they are his people, and he has never rejected them, but has been with them always.

I think that it’s good to review the actual context and language of Isaiah 53 to see if this is about jesus.

Isaiah 53, is the only place that looks like a human (righteous servant) dies as a sacrifice.

I guess that you would assume that the people speaking it Isaiah 53:1 is the Jewish people. Nevertheless that is a unscriptural assumption.

Isaiah 52:10 say: “10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.”

So the arm of the L-rd was reaveal to all the nations, not the Jewish people. So the Kings are talking. Without understanding who speaks in Isaiah 53, then you cannot understand who is the righteous servant. If Israel speaks, as Pauls wants you to believe, then it kinda look like it could be Jesus (even if there are insurmountable problem with that view)

But when we understand that the Kings of the nations speak, then it cannot be Jesus.

Furthermore, was Jesus crucified with rich? and thrown in a crave with wicked peoples? It’s the opposite isn’t it?

Also, Jesus never saw seeds nor prolonged is days! (seeds (zara) is always used for physical descendants, not spiritual)

To build a theology on one word “sacrifice” taken out of context, you may arrive at any conclusion!

And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;

8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

Number 25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

See Phinehas made atonement by throwing a javelin and killing an Israelite that did what displeased the L-rd. If I take your approach on Isaiah 53 on Number 25, that means that you may atone for sins by doing what Phinehas did… Would that make sense to take ONE word out of context.

Finally, if it is the only bible verse that looks like somebody bear the atonement of others, when it is clear that you cannot atone for someone else sin, nor Jesus can atone for yours (Ezekiel 18:20), why do you use a no so clear prophecy about something that has not happened yet! Isaiah 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Jesus, obvious was never exalted and extolled and never was very high. So part of that prophecy has not come to past either! (He will be exalted when he comes back, but that’s what Christian use as excuse for all their unfulfilled prophecies!) The new testament writers claim that Jesus atone for sin and that he was sinless. But honestly, anybody can do that claim, that does not make it true. It’s not that hard to bend a bible chapter to fit your theology.

I would suggest ISAIAH 53 from Jews for Judaism if you have more questions about that subject, but honestly, Isaiah 53 cannot be Jesus.

Also Julian, this is strict warning in the law. There are no second meaning or second interpretation. Difficult part to understand, it is clear:

“Say to them: Anyone from the house of Israel or from the foreigners who live among them who offers a burnt offering or a sacrifice 9 but does not bring it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to sacrifice it to the Lord, that person must be cut off from his people.

Isaiah 53, as I mention, is not that clear (because it has not come to past yet completely). Because it was a prophecy and not everything fits Jesus.

Compare the two and weight which one, there is not doubt about. Leviticus is clear, all sacrifices should be on the tent of the L-rd. Jesus was not sacrificed on the altar of the L-rd.

For Isaiah 53, we can argue over and over, but when there is a clear warning against sacrifices outside the altar, we can rule out that Jesus was the righteous servant.

remi4321

Azazel was not a sacrifice. So it really does not fit, if you want to see it literally, Jesus had a lot cast on him, but he was the sacrifice goat that was not for all the sins of all the people. But again, Jesus was not sacrificed on Yom Kippur. You can find types and shadows on anything you want, but Jesus does not fit that description either. The sacrificed goat was killed on the altar, not Golgotha.

For Israel’s hardening, G-d is clear (Deut 4) that Israel should not worship foreign gods, I do think that Paul went with the story of the hardening of the heart, for you not to ask questions. But if you would only look with open eyes, the whole Tanakh warns against the worship of Jesus and any foreign gods. All prophecies are taken out of context, misquoted or mistranslated. You are left with nothing to show that Jesus was the messiah, and nothing showing that Jesus was god. So basically, it is pure idolatry. But again, you would say that the gost has to reveal it to me. You need to believe the Jesus is the messiah to have the proofs that jesus is the messiah. You put the verdict before the trial! I did too. I preach at my messianic congregation, Gene was a MJ and probably Yehuda and Jim (not sure thought). We tested those proofs and they felt short for us to worship Jesus as god. Really short if you are honest!

You put the verdict before the trial my friend! Jesus for you is the Messiah and you check the Tanakh for proofs. But if you would be honest in your quest, you would try to see if he is really the messiah.

And Hell is the punishment if you doubt! So you won’t look!

Julian, time to deal with your “blood” position on jesus…Your assertion that Israel cannot atone for sin without “jesus blood/death” couldn’t be farther from the truth…Nowhere in the Tanach does it even hint that “jesus blood/death” is needed for Israel to receive forgiveness of sin from Hashem.

Leviticus 17:11 states that blood animal sacrifice is one way to atone for sin. However, it does not state that blood sacrifice is the only way to atone for sin…(also, note that “jesus blood” is also not mentioned here…Only animal blood!)

The prophet Daniel stood RIGHTEOUS and SAVED before Hashem without a Temple. He didn’t need “jesus blood” or jesus in any fashion on order to stand righteous before Hashem.

Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could SAVE only themselves by THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS, declares the Sovereign LORD.

You see, Daniel received forgiveness for his sins INDEPENDENT of jesus during the first exile. He did this by praying and sincerely repenting before Hashem. Daniel 6:11 states that he even did this in the face of death! Clearly, Daniel knew that his sincere repentance to Hashem brought him back to righteousness.

He was simply following the words of Jeremiah!

The context of Jeremiah 29 concerns what G-d expects of us during the exile in order to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Consider what is said in Jeremiah 29:12-14

Jeremiah 29:12. And you shall call Me and go and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you.

Jeremiah 29:13. And you will seek Me and find [Me] for you will seek Me with all your heart.

G-d expected that the Israelites would pray to Him while in Babylon. The result of their prayers and repentance allowed them to return to the land and rebuild the Holy Temple.

This is precisely what Daniel did…

And this is precisely what Orthodox Jews do today! Hosea gives us a similar message:

Hosea 3:4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.

Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel RETURN, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

How do we return to Hashem if we do not have any sacrifices? Hosea tells us in Hosea 14:2-3!

Hosea 14:2. RETURN, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.

Clearly, the subject of the next verse explains HOW Israel is supposed to RETURN to Hashem so that OUR INIQUITIES WILL BE FORGIVEN. Of course, the next verse explains just that!

Hosea 14:3 Take WORDS with yourselves and RETURN TO THE LORD. Say, “YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.

Even though we have stumbled in our iniquity and have been put into exile, we still have a means of returning to Hashem though our sincere PRAYERS. We take our words and return to Hashem by saying; “FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY.” Nothing in Hosea 14:2-3 indicates that we need the blood of animals in order to atone for our sins during the exile. And most importantly, NOTHING in Hosea 14:2-3 says we need the blood of jesus!

This is why Daniel was able to stand righteous before Hashem, praying three times a day, despite the fact that he knew he would be thrown into a pit of lions if he continued to do so. Yet he continued to do so in the face of death! (Daniel 6:11)

The Torah itself also gives us instructions as to what to do if we are in exile and we have no means of giving sacrifices in the Temple or Mishkan. Leviticus 26:38-43 elaborates:

Leviticus 26:38 You will become lost among the nations, and the land of your enemies will consume you.

Leviticus 26:39 And because of their iniquity, those of you who survive will rot away in the lands of your enemies; moreover, they will rot away because the iniquities of their fathers are still within them

Leviticus 26:40 **THEY WILL CONFESS THEIR INIQUITY and the iniquity of their fathers** their betrayal that they dealt Me, and that they also treated Me as happenstance.

Leviticus 26:41 Then I too, will treat them as happenstance and bring them [back while] in the land of their enemies. If then, their clogged heart becomes humbled, then, [their sufferings] will gain appeasement for their iniquity,

Leviticus 26:42 and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob, and also My covenant [with] Isaac, and also My covenant [with] Abraham I will remember. And I will remember the Land,

Leviticus 26:43[For] the Land will be bereft of them, appeasing its sabbaticals when it had been desolate of them, **AND THEY WILL GAIN APPEASEMENT FOR THEIR INIQUITY.** This was all in retribution for their having despised My ordinances and in retribution for their having rejected My statutes.

We know that the prophet Daniel confessed his iniquity and the iniquity of his forefathers multiple times during the exile according to the Book of Daniel. And just as Leviticus 26:38-43 explains, Israel was gathered back to the land by Hashem.
If the Jewish people did not need “jesus blood/death” to merit going back to the land of Israel and the rebuilding of the Holy Temple during the first exile, then why would we need it now?!

We don’t!

Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. It erroneously claims that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.”

lets take a look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…

II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.

II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.

II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for *Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, *”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

II Chronicles 30:20. *And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.*

The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE *BLOOD* AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?

According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:

II Chronicles 30:18 *Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, *”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

II Chronicles 30:20. *And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.*

The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER! Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…

And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5

Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were *HEALED.*

Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…

II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:

II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”

Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!
Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.

This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.

May Israel merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple and the reinstatement of the Levitical sacrificial system through our sincere prayer and repentance, speedily in our days!

Shalom

Concerning Isaiah 53, in order to determine who the servant is, we need to look at the context. Isaiah 49:3-6 is a good place to start.

Isaiah 49:3. And He said to me, “You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast.”

Isaiah 49:4. And I said, “I toiled in vain, I consumed my strength for nought and vanity.” Yet surely my right is with the Lord, and my deed is with my God.

Isaiah 49:5. And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him, said to bring Jacob back to Him, and Israel shall be gathered to Him, and I will be honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God was my strength.

Isaiah 49:6. And He said, “It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.”

So how is this reconciled? How can Israel bring back Israel? The answer is simple! Isaiah 49:3 refers to a specific part of Israel, namely the righteous remnant. (G-d promised a righteous remnant of Israel throughout all generations.) Verse 5 refers to the remnant bringing back the rest of Israel back to righteousness. And finally, verse 6 refers to the newly restored Israel being “light to the nations” through the revelation of truth through Hashem.

In other words, this is a two step process:

1. The righteous remnant of Israel will bring back the rest of Israel to righteousness. (Isaiah 49:3-5)

2. The newly restored nation of Israel will serve to be a “light to the nations.” (Isaiah 49:6)

So ultimately, the nation of Israel is the servant who will be “a light unto the nations.” However, in order to get to that point, the righteous remnant of Israel will first gather back the rest of Israel back to Torah. It’s a two step process.

The servant is the righteous remnant of ISRAEL.

Isaiah 51:7. Hearken to Me, you who know righteousness, a people that has My Torah in their heart, fear not reproach of man, and from their revilings be not dismayed.

This is yet another verse which highlights the suffering of G-d righteous servant, Israel. Isaiah 54 even refers to the “SERVANTS of the Lord”!

Isaiah 54:17. Any weapon whetted against you shall not succeed, and any tongue that contends with you in judgment, you shall condemn; this is the heritage of the SERVANTS OF THE LORD and their due reward from Me, says the Lord.

Isaiah 52:15 describes the gentiles kings who will shut their mouths because of their astonishment of Israel’s vindication by Hashem:

Isaiah 52:15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

Micah 7:16-17 echoes this sentiment:

Micah 7:16. Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.

Micah 7:17. They shall lick the dust as a snake, as those who crawl on the earth. They shall quake from their imprisonment; they shall fear the Lord, our God, and they shall fear you.

Also, Isaiah 60:14 speaks of the future Israel who was previously despised by the nations as being vindicated at the end of days, also echoing in line with the suffering/despised servant of Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 60:14And the children of your oppressors shall go to you bent over, and *THOSE WHO DESPISED YOU* shall prostrate themselves at the soles of your feet, and they shall call you ‘the city of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

So there you have it. The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 ultimately is the nation of Israel. Please note that the Messiah is a part of Israel, too.

Shalom

Julian

Oy! So much to respond to! Instead of arguing, I’ll just say that Jesus has atoned for all the sins of Israel, so there hasn’t been a need for a Temple all this time. Just prayer, repentance, and doing righteousness, which is what has always been needed, whether or not there is a Temple.

Isaiah 53 is about Israel, and since the Messiah is Israel par excellence it is most perfectly about the Messiah.

And even more perfectly NOT about Jesus, who to Christians is not “Israel” (since Christians replaced Israel one way or another with their own Christian version) and not “messiah” (what do Christians know about what or who messiah is in Judaism?) , but above all a god!

The issue of Isaiah 53 is not that much about Jesus being a sacrifice for sin. If Isaiah 53 or any prophecies talks about Jesus, then all Israel will go to hell (most Christian would agree with me). We are not part of “the Way (Jesus)”, the truth (Jesus)” and “the life (Jesus)” and have not accepted Jesus as our lord and saviour. We are from our father the devil. If the tanakh does not show Jesus as the messiah, god-man, or the only sacrifice for sin, you are sinning by worshipping a man-god, which cannot save, which is the worst sin according to the tanakh. Would you be willing to check all the so-call prophecies concerning Jesus or you prefer accept what he say without asking questions?

KAVI

Friends,

The prophecies L-rd Yeshua fulfilled are all well-documented– in today’s age of information and the internet, it really does not take much work to investigate the Truth.

We already know that:
Ω The Talmudic sages discerned that HaMashiach would come after 4,000 years of recorded history– however, in order to reject L-rd Yeshua, the rabbis found it necessary to continually revise the timeline forward.
Ω Instead, Isaiah the prophet said that the Messiah would be “the light of the Gentiles” as indeed has happened by their acceptance of L-rd Yeshua for the past 2,000 years [Isaiah 49:6]
Ω Daniel 9 definitively announces that the Messiah would come before the 2nd Temple was destroyed
Ω Malachi 3 says a messenger would come to prepare the way before the L-rd [that is, John the Baptist coming before L-rd Yeshua]– and that the L-rd Yeshua would come to the temple [the 2nd Temple].
Ω G-d say only a remnant of Israel would be saved [Isaiah 10:22]

And Wait! There’s more . . .
Ω G-d would make Jews ‘jealous’ by the Gentiles [Deuteronomy 32:21]
Ω G-d would need to teach the Jews through the Gentiles [Isaiah 1:9 and Isaiah 28:11]

And Wait! There is so, so much more to be discovered by those who seek the wisdom of G-d and search carefully through the Tanakh without callous hearts [Isaiah 6:10]

______________________________

Honestly, the proof is all there for the one who honestly comes to Elohim with their questions and seeks His face regarding Yeshua as HaMashiach.

And after all has been said, at the end of the day, each man and woman needs to make a decision what they’re going to believe:

Ω Either the Faith of Judaism invented by the rabbinate and supported by their Oral law,

OR,

Ω Elohim’s way of Faith as spoken by Moses and the Prophets and lived by the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

_____________________________

For me and the rest of the true Mashiachim, Elohim was merciful to give us the faith of Abraham and enjoy the ensuing righteous and peace inherent in the ‘sure mercies’ shown to David.

[**] Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.”

and

[**] Genesis 15:6
“Then he believed in the L-RD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.”

and

[**] Psalm 32:1-2
“Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord does not count against them
and in whose spirit is no deceit.”

Why wait until it’s too late?
[**] Zechariah 12:10 — L-rd Yeshua as the one killed, ‘pierced through’, yet made alive:

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child,
and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”

___________________________________

Jim D.

Another shameful and purposeful mistranslation by the Church so support the Jesus myth. Ah.. will it never end? This is what Zech 12:10 actually says:

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

And as we know, the Christian bible again shamefully and purposefully mistranslates Daniel 9 to support the Jesus lie. It does not “definitively” say any such thing. If the correct punctuation is reinserted into the original text, which your bible removed, you have three separate time periods, two different annointeds (one a ruler and the other not, so probably a priest), and an invading king. Daniel 9 has ZIP to do with the expected messiah.

Such false claims are based on mistranslation of the sacred script. Are you kidding? Go back into the Matrix, Kava. We here are in the real world.

Jim D.

And what’s with all this disingenuous “L-rd” nonsense? I suppose it’s to make ignorant Jews think you’re so H-braic and know what you’re talking about, K-vi?

Jim D.

Hey R-mi, what’s up, m-n?

“And what’s with all this disingenuous “L-rd” nonsense?”

Jim, Kavi is probably concerned that Jews would be offended by a Gentile and Christian not omitting a letter in “Lord”. But it doesn’t occur to him that Jews are far more offended by him calling a dead man and idol “L-rd” and “G-d of Israel” and writing it the way English-speaking Jews do, i.e. using terms which these Jews reserve only for the Almighty!

Seriously, I do it to J-m :) I think it is OK if he does not want to offend the L-rd (or at least what he think it is the L-rd). When I think about it, I don’t think the English translation L-rd has anything to do with “do not take the name of the L-rd your G-d in vain”. Or those who don’t want to say “G-d”, like of my… has anything to do with that commandment. But I don’t do it not to offend anybody, just like I would not use YVHV’s name :)

Ω The Talmudic sages discerned that HaMashiach would come after 4,000 years of recorded history– however, in order to reject L-rd Yeshua, the rabbis found it necessary to continually revise the timeline forward.

But you don’t believe the Talmudic sages, why do you use that as proof?

Ω Instead, Isaiah the prophet said that the Messiah would be “the light of the Gentiles” as indeed has happened by their acceptance of L-rd Yeshua for the past 2,000 years [Isaiah 49:6]

I agree with you, the messiah will be a light to the gentiles.

Ω Daniel 9 definitively announces that the Messiah would come before the 2nd Temple was destroyed

too long to explain, but your date does not fit anyway.
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/

Ω Malachi 3 says a messenger would come to prepare the way before the L-rd [that is, John the Baptist coming before L-rd Yeshua]– and that the L-rd Yeshua would come to the temple [the 2nd Temple].

Messenger “malachi” will come. There is no indication that it is John, who is not Elijah.
There is no indication that the Lord is Jesus.
You add things in the text to fit your theory

Ω G-d say only a remnant of Israel would be saved [Isaiah 10:22]

physical remnant returning to the Eretz Ysrael, not a remnant that believe in Jesus

And Wait! There’s more . . .
Ω G-d would make Jews ‘jealous’ by the Gentiles [Deuteronomy 32:21]

They have provoked My jealousy with a non god, provoked My anger with their vanities. Thus, I will provoke their jealousy with a non people, provoke their anger with a foolish nation.

ok, you want to be called a foolish nation?

Ω G-d would need to teach the Jews through the Gentiles [Isaiah 1:9 and Isaiah 28:11]

Isaiah 1:9 does not say that.

So now God will have to speak to his people through foreign oppressors who speak a strange language!

It’s hard to arrive at any conclusion with Isaiah 28:11.

And Wait! There is so, so much more to be discovered by those who seek the wisdom of G-d and search carefully through the Tanakh without callous hearts [Isaiah 6:10]

[**] Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live believe in Jesus?.”

[**] Genesis 15:6
“Then he believed in the L-RD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.”

Again Kavi!

[**] Psalm 32:1-2
“Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord does not count against them
and in whose spirit is no deceit.”
Why wait until it’s too late?

Because it does not say anything about a sacrifice, as Ezekiel 18 say, if we turn from our sins, G-d will forgive!

[**] Zechariah 12:10 — L-rd Yeshua as the one killed, ‘pierced through’, yet made alive:
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.

The New testament does not record the Jewish people, all together morning for Jesus! Again, Jesus will come back in the clouds and all Israel WILL morn for Jesus, whom they have pierced! I thought it was the Romans? And again, you use something that has NOT happened to prove what you want. This cannot be used as a proof, it is has not happened!

+ Him and Me, and many other reason that Jim explained.

KAVI

Shalom!

After reading the comments, one would be forced to conclude that most of this site’s writers have some ‘need’ to make L-rd Yeshua into some weird demigod in order to assuage their continued belief in rabbinic Judaism.

In doing so, these writers commit a logic fallacy known as the “Straw Man”, whereby they construct in their minds an imagined demigod and set about destroying him as an ‘idol’– yet the real, truthful L-rd Yeshua stands by untouched.

To repeat,
L-rd Yeshua cannot be compared to an idol because the Mashiachim NEVER worship his ‘form’– we never worship that temporary ‘clothing’ of skin and bones.

The Mashiachim worship the Eternal One who came to earth, walked upon this earth as the Prophet likened to Moses, and who returned to heaven WITHOUT that physical body of flesh.

In doing so, the true Mashiachim act just like Moses who also would not worship the ‘Temunah’ of the Ancient of Days– Moses worshipped His Essential Being, not His ‘form’

_____________________________

“to make L-rd Yeshua into some weird demigod”

But he IS a “weird demigod”! Christianity has made a dead man into one long ago and Christians like you are continuing in that task to this day. That is a gross sin and perversion that has caused terrible pain to humanity and Jewish people in particular.

First, I don’t think that we want to elevate Rabbinical Judaism. I believe in the Tanakh, and rely on it. We have not come and threw you Talmudic text, nor rabbinical verses. I understand that Jesus had some problem with the oral law and that you hear that, laughing at Rabbinical Judaism as false religion in your “Messianic” Church, but we did not come throwing false explanation in our comments. I am not trying to throw Jesus down, I was a Messianic before. I went to check the evidences, I did not come with the conclusion that Jesus is the messiah and find the evidences afterwards. I did that for 4 years. Finding the evidences and listening to my Messianic “rabbis”. I went to check the proofs and concluded that Jesus could not be the messiah. Most “proofs” of Jesus are easy to counter anyway. So any honest person would find the Truth if he search scriptures. You are the one that come to the conclusion before the trial. Furthermore, you are bias because you have being bribed by the reward of heaven and the punishment of hell if you do not believe in Jesus.

KAVI

On the contrary, rabbinic Judaism does indeed create a “straw man” out of L-rd Yeshua because it has no real explanation for Him– as I described Yeshua, He does not fit into the ‘neat’ category of anything in Deuteronomy 4.

Therefore, they must ‘force’ Him to be an idol– By doing so, it may be convenient, but it does not address the Truth that Elohim is ‘Echad’ and the Ancient of Days, L-rd Yeshua, and Ruach HaKodesh are ‘Echad’.

Again,
L-rd Yeshua cannot be compared to an idol because the Mashiachim NEVER worship his ‘form’– we never worship that temporary ‘clothing’ of skin and bones.

The Mashiachim worship the Eternal One who came to earth, walked upon this earth as the Prophet likened to Moses, and who returned to heaven WITHOUT that physical body of flesh.

The true Mashiachim act just like Moses who also would not worship the ‘Temunah’ of the Ancient of Days– Moses worshipped His Essential Being, not His ‘form’

The basic decision is:

Ω Either the Law of Judaism [as invented by the rabbinate and supported by their Oral law]

OR,

Ω Elohim’s way of Faith as spoken by Moses and the Prophets and lived by the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

______________________________

Abram was a Gentile justified by faith in his Elohim– not by the Law. [Genesis 15:6]

The true Mashiachim live by this Faith. [Habakkuk 2:4]

RIGHTEOUSNESS THROUGH THE LAW OR THROUGH FAITH is what truly distinguishes the true Mashiachim from rabbinic Judaism.

_____________________________

If there is no prophecies about Jesus, there are no Mashiachim, but only idol worshipper. If the prophecies would point out to Jesus, we could say he is the messiah, but they don’t. The messiah is not supposed to be a god, but a descendent of David. Abraham believe G-d, not Jesus. The just shall leave by emunah (nothing about Jesus there either)
I could tell you that you have to believe in Mohammed because the Just shall live by faith. You would tell me “why? that passage does not talk about Mohammed”, but would insist it talks about Mohammed and Abraham believe G-d, that meant he believed that Mohammed would be the last prophet. You use the same kind of reasoning/non-sense!

“Abram was a Gentile justified by faith in his Elohim– not by the Law. [Genesis 15:6]”

There was no such thing as “Gentiles” and “Jews” at that time, no such division between people existed, so it’s ridiculous to call Abram a “Gentile”!

Also, there’s a huge difference between “faith” and “faithfulness”. For you and the rest of your fellow Evangelicals, Paul’s and then Martin Luther’s “faith”, which specifically meant “believing in Jesus” in both cases (instead of the G-d of the Bible), is what you think will save you from hell, and not being obedient to G-d’s commands (the faithfulness of the Hebrew Bible).

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Not because of faith?

Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.
And it was reckoned to him for righteousness,
To all generations forever

Phinehas had faith in Jesus, he did not even know he existed? Neither Abraham!

Jim D.

“Jim, Kavi is probably concerned that Jews would be offended by a Gentile and Christian not omitting a letter in “Lord”. But it doesn’t occur to him that Jews are far more offended by him calling a dead man and idol “L-rd” and “G-d of Israel”

Gene, I see your point, which I hadn’t considered before, but I’m glad you used the word, “probably”, because I still don’t think I’m off the mark.

I checked out a major messianic web site from my neck of the woods and I see the same use of “L-rd” and “G-d”. Kavi is following what he’s been taught, so I concede it’s not just him personally. However, I think the upshot is the same.

We know that a huge part of the Messianic mission is specifically Jewish evangelism. That’s why the Baptist Church invented messianic Judaism and messianic “synagogues” in the first place. For the most part, these efforts target secular Jews who are probably unfamiliar with the hyphenetic convention in the first place. The informed Jew has no issue at all with “Lord”, including the ones who you say would take offense to hearing proclamations that Yeshua is G-d. (And I’m only using the hypenetic convention here so as to not combine too closely “God” with the man, and didn’t want to use lower case.)

Secondly, “Lord” appears in almost every Jewish bible, including the Hirsch, JPS, Koren and Keter Crown. There isn’t a Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative or Orthodox Jew who would be offended by use of “Lord” because its in their Tanakh. (Artscroll translations use “Hashem” and “God” (no hypenation, interestingly, including Chabad.com). Even the “Complete Jewish Bible” and the “Orthodox Jewish Bible” don’t use “L-rd”.

So what do we have left? The use of “L-rd” is limited almost exclusively to use by messianic organizations and synagogues. What’s their reason? It’s not to avoid offending their Jewish targets. I think it’s just another part of their disguise. Dress Jewish, act Jewish, use Jewish vernacular.. It’s part self-deception and part attempt to enhance of what they think Jewish looks like (even though they don’t quite get it entirely right) — in order to lure ill-informed Jews. To look at it another way, if they weren’t trying to convert Jews, they wouldn’t be bothering with such nonsense.

http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/l-rd.htm

Some people don’t write Lord/God on paper that could be thrown in the garbage. Seriously, Bible are meant to be kept. It might be more a superstition than anything, but it’s good to wonder why we do what we are doing.

Maybe the gost told the MJ to do that? LOL

Ho man, I just did the unforgivable sin, again! No way of repentance any more :)

Jim D.

You’re gonna burn, R-mi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_the_Bible#Genesis_49:10

Kavi, please look at that website. Taking prophecies out of context is not only done by Christians:

Deuteronomy 18:18 talks about Mohammed
18 I will raise up for them a prophet (Prophet) from among their brethren like you,

Psalm 45 talks about mohammed:
The beauty of the king: “You are the most excellent of men”. [Psalm 45:2]

Psalm 110:1 talks about Mohammed

Isaiah 40:3 talks about Mohammed
Of course Isaiah 42 and Daniel 7 talk about mohammed.

See you can take any things out of context like the NT did and it can mean anything! That’s what you are doing!

remi4321

you too J-m!

Jim D.

I kn-w!

R-mi4321

Are you sure you should not convert to Mormonism K-vi?

Joseph Smith had been called by the Lord to be a prophet “like unto” Moses who would restore the text of Moses’ writing so his words could be “had again” among the children of men.

KAVI

Friends,
Your input, as always, is truly appreciated as well as invigorating to the mind.

Why do the sages say in the Talmud that– ‘Anyone who becomes angry is like one who practices idolatry?’

Did not the One who said,
“You shall have no other gods before me.” also say,
“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”

Perhaps G-d speaks against idolatry so much because idolatry is not so much the ‘form’, but what the form represents? [refer to Maimonides]

So, when I say that neither Moses nor the true Mashiachim serve or worship ANY Temunah– can one really find fault when we find Elohim existent as the Eternal One [Echad]?

______________________________________

Jim D.

Hey Kavi — I just referred to Maimonides. He said that you’re an idolater.

Catholic think it is OK to worship statues, you think it is OK to bow to Jesus. Everybody does what it is right in his own mind. Maimonides, Rashi et all would have think it is Idolatry, so does the Tanakh!

Kavi, can I ask you a question. If Jesus was just a man that claimed to be god, but we not the G-d of Israel, would it be wrong to worship him?

If so, don’t you think that G-d would have show more evidence than “Let US make man in OUR image”?

He would have need to clearly show that Jesus, specifically Jesus and no other man would be god in the flesh.

It should be obvious for everybody to see, with such a warning against idolatry. It should be obvious that Jesus and only Jesus was god in the flesh.

Now you are telling us that we are blind, that G-d blinded us.

Please provide all the verses that show that Jesus and only Jesus was god from the tanakh. (obviously I do not expect to have the name Jesus written)

Please show that he and only he could be that man who is also god.

Many people claimed to be gods, so if G-d really wanted to come to earth, he would not have make a “mystery” (1 Timothy 3:16) out of it.

Please provide a full list for us to discuss. The verse should show that G-d is a human, but not any human (like Genesis 1), specifically Jesus. I do not with types and shadows please.

Thank you

So, when I say that neither Moses nor the true Mashiachim serve or worship ANY Temunah– can one really find fault when we find Elohim existent as the Eternal One [Echad]?

You meant three isn’t it?

Three, one, what’s the difference anyway!

KAVI

Shalom!

Let’s continue to explore what Elohim really considers to be idolatry:

First, Maimonides was right about at least one thing– idolatry is more than just the creation of images.

So, is it just only ‘Anger’ as the sages say?
What about Adultery?
Covetousness?
Pride?
How about ANY sin?

Ω When one sins, is it not rebellion against Elohim?

Ω When one sins, does it not indicate arrogance against the ways of Elohim?

[**] I Samuel 15:23
“For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and stubbornness is as idolatry and teraphim.”

_____________________

Idolatry and the Diaspora

If Yisrael did not continue in this properly expanded view of idolatry, G-d had promised them that the Diaspora would never occur:

[**] Deuteronomy 28:15,64-65

“However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow ALL his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:”
. . .
“Then the L-RD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known — wood and stone. And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the L-RD will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul…”

So, Yisrael was NOT sent into the Diaspora due to worshipping L-rd Yeshua– it’s because they rejected Him and held on to their own ‘Temunah’ of righteousness– the Law which neither they nor the forefathers out of Egypt could keep.

Regrettably, they preferred to trust in their own way of ‘works’ rather than trust in Elohim’s True Way of gracious Faith [Emunah] which would provide rest and peace in the ‘sure mercies of David.’ [Psalm 32:1-2]

[**] Deuteronomy 32:20
“And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no Faith [Emun].”

__________________________________

Kavi, G-d warned against your belief system:

Deuteronomy 29:17 Perhaps there is among you a man, woman, family, or tribe, whose heart strays this day from the Lord, our God, to go and worship the deities of those nations. Perhaps there is among you a root that produces hemlock and wormwood.

Deuteronomy 29:18 And it will be, when he [such a person] hears the words of this oath, that he will bless himself in his heart, saying, “I will have peace, even if I follow my heart’s desires,” in order to add the [punishment for the] unintentional sins [of this man] to that of [his] intentional sins.

Deuteronomy 29:19 The Lord will not be willing to forgive him; rather, then, the Lord’s fury and His zeal will fume against that man, and the entire curse written in this book will rest upon him, and the Lord will obliterate his name from beneath the heavens.

This is your warning, Kavi. Your jeezer was not revealed to Israel at Horeb. Thus, your jeezer is another deity of another nation. Your jeezer is not Hashem. Your jeezer is not the Messiah.

So why don’t you man up and explain to us how your jeezer fulfilled Psalms 110? I’ve posted about it several times and have demonstrated to you how your jeezer has fulfill none of the prophesy. Interestingly enough, Psalms 110 is the most quoted passage from the Tanach in your false NT. Yet your jeezer didn’t even fulfill it in the slightest!

So before you start with your “G-d has a form” diatribe, why don’t you address the elephant in the room. Your jeezer failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies. Thus, your jeezer is not the Messiah. And since your jeezer claimed to be the Messiah in your false NT, your jeezer is a liar.

G-d is not a liar though, as Numbers 23:19 explicitly states.

Thus your jeezer is not Hashem. Your jeezer is a false messiah and a false god.

So keep posting your idiotic posts, Kavi. Keep making your idiotic belief system look even more stupid. We’ll continue to refute your false NT while you ignore our refutations and whine about G-d having a form. You want G-d to have a form? Fine. Just for you Kavi. G-d has a form. (Just for arguments sake, I’ll grant Kavi all his “form” stupidity arguments, even though he completely ignores my refutations of his understanding of Genesis 18, Exodus 24:9-11, etc.)

But your jeezer isn’t that form. Your jeezer failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies, including these:

Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)

Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).

Your jeezer failed to complete these tasks, Kavi. Therefore, you have no reason to assume that your jeezer is the Messiah.

Therefore, your jeezer is not Hashem or the Messiah.

Give up the jeezer Kavi. It’s time for you to face reality.

Shalom

Jim D.

K-vi just quoted,

“Then the L-RD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known…”

That’s right, K-vi. And they didn’t know Jesus. He’s disqualified. To worship him is idolatry.

You know, what’s interesting to me is that you actually quoted something that has been shown to you that proves Jesus ain’t God. Yet, you quoted it anyway. And you never actually had any comment about the point, nor did you refute it. What does that mean?…. Maybe that you weren’t able to process it. You never were told how to respond to that particular objection. It’s not in the tracts and field guides you have. So you simple chose to ignore it rather than actually think.

“So, Yisrael was NOT sent into the Diaspora due to worshipping L-rd Yeshua– it’s because they rejected Him and held on to their own ‘Temunah’ of righteousness– the Law which neither they nor the forefathers out of Egypt could keep.”

Sorry Einstein, I know this is the messianic party line, which you faithfully repeat like a mindless zombie, but this is one of the most stupid things to ever come out of your mouth. (And there have been a lot of stupid things heard.)

You really do seem to have suspended any ability to think independently or clearly. In fact, you remind me very much of cult followers. I’ll bet your parents have been pretty concerned about you, friend.

You know what, boys? I think K-vi drank the Cool Aid.

Kavi, please answer us, why we should worship Jesus if he has NO prophecies that he actually fulfilled. Instead of throwing that Israel was in exile because they reject Jesus. Do you know G-d’s thought. You make me think about job’s friends. Maybe they went in exile because too many worshipped Jesus, have you ever thought about that! No prophets ever told us that it was the reason, in fact there is no prophet since Malachi (that mean John the Baptist was not a prophet, because most Jews were NOT in the land)

No proofs that Jesus is the messiah, or god = you are committing idolatry.

“”“Then the L-RD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known…”
That’s right, K-vi. And they didn’t know Jesus. He’s disqualified. To worship him is idolatry. “”

You mean Jim that Isarel went in captivity and after they served other gods like Jesus, that neither them nor their fathers knew? Really, kiss the cross or kiss the sword, then some Jews decided to go with the cross and convert to Christianity… Is that really what that passage is saying. I think so! And they use that passage to prove that Israel was wrong not to accept Jesus, and was cursed because of that, when actually it is the opposite.

remi4321

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr1.htm

I came into an interesting article, that satan brought to me.. HAHAHA! Kavi won’t read it.

Jim D.

K-vi has shown us time after time that he does not, is not willing to, or simply is unable to think clearly about this. We earnestly want him to see our points, but do we not also see what’s happening? Do we not see that for over many weeks Kavi has not reconsidered even one of his positions, regardless of the enormous amount of evidence provided? Do you call that a discussion? Now, I have accused him in the past of going in mindless OCD circles (and I was actually serious last night about him seeming like a Moonie), but he is not doing this alone. We’re going in those circles with him.

That’s all fine if that’s what everyone wants, but I have a concern. To be sure, this is Gene’s blog not mine, and I’m sure he has a valid reason for allowing this to continue, but the fact is the Kavi discussions have virtually dominated this blog for quite some time now, and whereas before this started spinning, I used to see much broader participation here by different contributors. Now, however, there are only a few of us “debating” Kavi and it’s dominating the blog. I frankly think it is discouraging others from engaging in fruitful conversation. This is just my personal opinion, of course. Others may view it quite differently and be 100% correct.

I went to JFJesus website and lots of comments were “deleted by the author”. I would say because they had good arguments against Christianity. We don’t want that in this blog, unless Christian would think that actually Kavi had good arguments!

So, should I block Kavi or not:)?

Jim D.

Gene, I suppose blocking is the most definitive control, but perhaps left as a next step? Maybe he will agree to stop repeating himself. We can also choose to not engage with him — unless he states something new and significant that must be addressed. But I think we have already addressed 90% of what he has to say. If he doesn’t stop the repetition, then I’m in favor of blocking. Just my two cents.

I vote to keep him, your rebuttals have been really useful for me. But also agree with Jim that it needs to be a conversation. If not we can ignore / block him.

Kavi are you willing to converse and not doing a one-way preaching?

Maybe, we could talk of one topic at a time and one bible verse at a time. Kavi say why he thinks it’s Jesus and we explain why we think it’s not about Jesus.

KAVI

Gene,
Whether I am blocked or not is your call– however, Rabbi Moshe Ben-Chaim would disagree [see Judaism vs Christianity] where he says:

“So I invite our true Christian friends, not to hold your tongue, and I urge our Jewish friends, not to conceal Judaism from the Christians. Engage in honest, unbridled religious discussion.”

The fact of the matter is that ‘stubbornness’ is a two-way street– who is to say that I am wrong and you are right [or the other way around]?

_______________________

Gene’s website theme is: “I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more.” (Zechariah 13:2)

Technically, this happened when the 2nd Temple was built– but what happened?

Another ‘permanent’ exile occurred [at least until Yeshua HaMashiach returns].

So, please directly answer the question– According to the Word of Elohim, was not the Diaspora due to the pervasive idolatry of Yisrael that existed in ALL its forms at the time L-rd Yeshua walked this planet two millennia ago?

[**] Deuteronomy 28:15,64-65

________________________

The whole book of Job, his friends try to persuade Job that he sinned and that’s why he was punished by G-d. At the end, G-d vindicate righteous Job and ask Job’s friend to offer a offer a burnt offering (Job 42:7-9) for they had not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job had.

Now you may say that I am wrong. but you cannot say that the exile was cause by the rejection of Jesus. You don’t think for G-d, and G-d’s thought are higher than your thought. You can only speculate why things happened and why G-d allowed it to happened, but it’s foolish to say that the Jews were exiled because they did not accept Jesus.

Remi, EXCELLENT analogy!

Jim D.

K-vi, you like to ignore facts. And the facts of history are very clear: The Roman Empire accepted and accommodated Judah and even allowed more autonomy than other subject nations, including their insistence that they not be required to worship Caesar like all the rest, as long as they didn’t rebel.

The destruction and exile occurred at the height of the Roman Empire, when they were unstoppable. The Romans brutally quashed all national uprisings in the Empire and made no exception for Judah. The the Temple was destroyed and the final banishment happened in 132 CE because of Judah’s national uprisings. The Romans cracked down on Judah as with Gaul, Egypt and the rest who resisted. Those who accommodated Pax Romana lived in peace.

Is there something you just don’t get about this? Did you study world history at all? You want to ignore reality and impose a “spiritual” explanation which does not apply.

If God wanted to punish Judah, He would have had Rome destroy it without being in response to any rebellion. Is it simply coincidence that the destructions occurred immediately on the heels of the people’s acts of rebellion? No Kavi. It’s clear to anyone who knows the basics of history in the region and can think with even a little bit of reality in mind that it had nothing to do with God, and absolutely nothing to do with the idolatry of worship of Yeshua.

Jim D.

So your question is answered, Kavi. Just like I answered it before. You are choosing to ignore what has already been said, and are continuing to repeat yourself.

Hi Kavi, let’s go in order, which prophecy do you want to show us that could only be done, reasonably speaking, by Jesus? Please write one prophecy or bible verse that could explain that you worship Jesus. Then we will discuss. Please let’s not use supposition, like the fact that Israel went in exile in 70 AD. Or do you want us to go with someone else fulfilled prophecies list?

Jim D.

Why repeat what’s already been discussed? Why repeat what’s already been discussed?

Was I so blind and followed what preachers were saying instead of checking the proof of Jesus for so long. (I guess it’s hard to check honestly if you cannot doubt!) Is there not ONE bible verse that could be seriously challenging for us? We are left with bits and pieces of words and things out of context. Every week I go to my Messianic church and they always say there is tones of evidences. What happened, why was I so blind? Where are they, that they boast so much about Jesus. They claim there was a mountain 1 out of 1200000000000000000000000000000000 that Jesus could fulfill all that! but Rabbi Skobac is right 365 times 0 equals 0. What a shame that nobody wants to listen, and would rather start an argument or go on OCD mode.

And all the lies that Christians say “Isaiah 53 was removed from the bible, The JEWS changed Virgin for young woman, etc.

I don’t believe in blocking. I view it as an indication of cowardice, but that’s just me. Unless someone is harassing you online, I don’t see the harm in what Kavi is doing. Kavi is just displaying idiocy on the internet…What’s new?

I’ve been blocked by Dr. Michael Brown, Itzhak Shapira, Mitch Glaser, Moti Vaknin, and countless other jeezer believers who didn’t like what I had to say. I can disprove the NT and the belief that jeezer is the Moshiach in a matter of seconds on the internet and all of them know this. As a result, they want to silence me and disengage from the conversation.

Kavi may have perseverance, but he has no substance. Kavi ignores our refutations of his arguments and subsequently makes up another strawman argument to attempt to distract us from the fact that his jeezer failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies and is thus, not the Messiah.

I view this as a positive thing in a sense…Kavi is clearly delusional about the jeezer, and his posts on this blog exemplify this fact. I’ve posted about Psalms 110 multiple times and have challenged Kavi on the NT view of it and Kavi hasn’t even touched on my rebuttal. That is quite telling of his incompetence in his defending his jeezer as a god/messiah.

I’ve also posted about how Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement, and that the jeezer’s death/blood did not ultimately atone for all sin, and that there are other ways to atone for sin other than blood sacrifice, especially during times of exile. Kavi has refused to defend his christian position on this as well, further exemplifying the falsehood of his beliefs and his incompetence in defending the christian position on this issue.

All in all, Kavi is edifying the stupidity of the christian belief system.

So, that’s was you “deleted by moderator”. It’s kind of cowardice from Brown et all. to delete peoples comments that disagree with their belief!

A couple years ago, I asked Dr. Brown if he believed that there would be a literal 3rd Temple. Instead of answering my question, he said “read my book.” Once I got a hold of one of his books, I started picking apart his arguments on his Facebook page. Shortly after, I was blocked!

To be fair though, Dr. Michael Brown was generous enough to give me a signed copy of one of his books. I’m sure he regrets that now lol.

Oh yeah and Dr. Brown blocked me from commenting on his “Line Of Fire” blog as well. Once you make it clear that you have read his stuff and have clear refutations of his work, he closes off conversation with you. Quite a coward and a fraud!

I only blocked two people on this blog – a rabid antisemite neonazi (it felt really good blocking him) and a Jewish convert to Christianity would leave personal and obnoxious comments (well, he wasn’t blocked completely, only those sort of comments were moderated by me… sometimes in a funny way).

Probably that Dan Ben Tzvi guy eh? lol. That guy was quite an annoyance.

Jim D.

I’m not for blocking anyone because their opinions are different or challenging. I’m concerned that Kavi is not engaged in real conversation here, but is restating endlessly in loops. I dont think this is beeficial or priductive. Its becoming a waste, and the banter with Kavi is filling and dominating the blog. I suspect it’s discouraging fresh input from others who I used to see commenting but have stopped, and probably new contributors as well.

Fellas, if you feel that Kavi is wasting your time by being repetitive, evasive and failing to acknowledge your scripturally supported criticism of his idolatrous beliefs and statements, feel free to ignore him. We have lots of other visitors to this blog daily and I will be making new posts soon, which will hopefully convert those readers into commenters.

Jim D.

I’m feeling free!

Shabbat Shalom :)

KAVI

Friends,

It sounds as if I am not quite yet “banished” from the land– so let’s see if I can offer more variety and remain on topic.

___________________________

[*] Diaspora
My question has not been answered from an Orthodox viewpoint where Elohim is the Sovereign of His creation.

Specifically, to say that the Diaspora was ‘only’ caused by the Roman government:

Ω denies the power of G-d to control history [Daniel 2:21-23], and

Ω denies G-d’s ability to move the hearts of kings to do whatever He wishes. [Proverbs 21:1], and

Ω denies that G-d specifically addressed the conditions of the Diaspora [Deuteronomy 28]

__________________________

BTW> By popular demand, I will address Hebrews 9 and Psalm 110 in a future post :)

Jim D.

No, it doesn’t deny any of that. Young kids die of cancer, too. What, Kavi, are you going to say to their parents? God could have saved your sweet little girl but she was a sinner?

Sundown here, checking out.

KAVI

August 2, 2015

Yes, some individuals can attribute an entire lifetime to “life happens”– but I and many others cannot.

[] I am a cancer survivor [so far]. By the time the cancer was biopsied, I was one stage away from metastases.

“Luck”? This concept does not exist in my vocabulary except as an idolatrous word in the dictionary.

[] I have multiple disabilities.

________________________

Have I questioned G-d about these abnormalities and trials?

Yes– but I never say “life happens” because I know Adonai has purpose for everything in His creation– He always has purpose even if I have zero comprehension as to what that purpose is.

We all can learn from Job’s experience.

We can read the Words of G-d when He says to Moses,

Then the L-RD said to him,
“Who has made man’s mouth?
Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind?
Is it not I, the L-RD? [Exodus 4:11]

___________________________

If I accept a worldview that “life happens”, then yes, the reason for the Diaspora could be answered as a natural, historical event whereby the powerful overcame the weaker—that is, the Romans vanquished the Jews in 70 AD.

The difficulty is that those who are ‘more orthodox’ generally have an alternative viewpoint of the scope and power of Elohim over His creation and, therefore, cannot agree with a more limited worldview.

My question was: In light of the more expansive definition of idolatry, did not Yisrael’s continuance in idolatry ultimately force Adonai to send them into the Diaspora as prophesied in Deuteronomy 28?

If no one agrees—then it would be nice to know why from a more “orthodox” worldview.

If not—so be it.

_______________________________

Jim D.

August 2, 2015

I don’t believe the orthodox worldview has an explanation for the Shoah (except for possibly one, which I don’t agree with). And I wouldn’t go down that road..

August 4, 2015

Kavi here is your answer:

But he (Israel) was pained because of our (the nations) transgressions , crushed because of our iniquities.

Not because Israel sinned. Anyway, you can go in that direction if you want and continue being like Job’s friend. Unless you know G-d’s will, I would not say that Israel was sent in exile because they rejected Jesus. Or I can continue and say “no, it’s because too many accepted Jesus” as it is written in Isaiah 44 and 45:

Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, “I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God.

is there a God besides Me? And there is no rock I did not know.

I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God.

I am the Lord and there is no other.Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

For so said the Lord, the Creator of heaven, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, He established it; He did not create it for a waste, He formed it to be inhabited, “I am the Lord and there is no other.

Is it not I, the Lord, and there are no other gods besides Me, a just and saving God there is not besides Me..

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other.

By Myself I swore, righteousness emanated from My mouth, a word, and it shall not be retracted, that to Me shall every knee kneel, every tongue shall swear.”

remi4321

August 4, 2015

Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’S hand double for all her sins.

Yes, the first exile and some was chastisement from G-d, but the nations, who were instrument of Judgement from G-d, continued their evil acts and would not stop. Read Isaiah 47… then it continues and Isaiah 53 explains that Israel was not chastised because of their sins, but because of the nations sins.

Isaiah 47:

I was angry with my people
and desecrated my inheritance;
I gave them into your hand,
and you showed them no mercy.
Even on the aged
you laid a very heavy yoke.
7 You said, ‘I am forever—
the eternal queen!’
But you did not consider these things
or reflect on what might happen.

Marcus Ampe

August 7, 2015

@remi4321 you say you go to a Messianic Jewish group but it is not clear if they are a trinitarian group or one that really keeps to the faith of the rabbi Jeshua (Christ Jesus) who is not God but the son of God, according to Scriptures.

@blogwriter and others
The master teacher who gave his body for the sins of many is considered as the ransom offer which God accepted and opened the gates for gentiles to come to God as His children. The newly accepted ones did not take away the previously chosen ones. They, the descendants of the patriarch Abraham, the Chosen People of God, the Jews, the nation Israel stay the prefered Chosen ones. Real Christians (non-trinitarians) do accept that Jews have that prefered position, but also know that in the love of God they shall not be 2nd hand citizens. Those Christians look forward to the return of Christ, the opening of the Kingdom of God to the judged righteously, and the government of theocracy from the kingdom’s capital Jerusalem.

August 7, 2015

Marcus, do you worship Jesus?

remi4321

August 7, 2015

Marcus

On one side, some believe that Jesus is trinitarian, and on the other side they only believe he is the messiah. Jesus did things that only G-d could do (forgive sins, being the “rock”, stop the wind, etc)

honestly, trinitarians are wrong to wroship him as God, you are wrong to put a god before G-d’s face. It does not matter, the whole book is a fraud! Jesus had no authority to do what he did if he was not G-d, and Jesus could not be G-d.

Prove my from the Tanakh that Jesus was the messiah, there is not one prophecy or one verse that corroborate that.

I honestly don’t know what is worst, saying that Jesus was G-d or saying that Jesus was a second god, memrah, or whatever else you want to attribute to him…

KAVI

Shalom,

While still pondering the many idolatries of mankind and the relationship to the Diaspora foretold in Deuteronomy 28:

[] Moses’ Idolatry [anger]
In his anger, Moses committed idolatry when he struck the rock to bring forth water for the rebellious house of Yisrael.

G-d considered this act of idolatry so evil that Moses could not enter the Land of Promise. [Numbers 20:10-12]

[] Adam and Chava’s Idolatry
Chava was deceived by satan and Adam rebelled against the Almighty by eating of the forbidden fruit in an attempt to make themselves into their own gods:
— Lust of the flesh = the fruit was ‘good’ to eat
— Lust of the eyes = the fruit was ‘beautiful’
— Lust for Pride and Power = the fruit would grant a kind of wisdom where they could make up their own rules of what’s “good and evil.”

[] Rabbi Moshe Ben-Chaim’s commentary on Maimonides’ view of Idolatry [from within us]

**Maimonides’ (Idolatry, 2:3) states:
“…And not idolatry alone is it that we are forbidden to turn afterwards in thought, but all thoughts which cause a man to uproot a fundamental of the Torah’s fundamentals, we are warned not to entertain on our hearts, and remove our knowledge towards it, and consider, and be drawn after the imaginations of the heart….”

“And if all men were drawn after the thoughts of their hearts, we would find the world would be destroyed, because of his (man’s) weakness of knowledge.”

_______

**R.Chaim writes:
“Imaginations of the heart” and “thoughts of the heart” are what Maimonides rightfully classifies under idolatrous prohibitions. He does not say we must not study rationally. Of course man must hold false notions until his rational studies eventuate in true knowledge, stripping him of erroneous opinions. This must happen to each member of mankind.

The prohibition is to follow “imaginations”, not rational study. Our minds were given for the very purpose of rational study. We must involve ourselves in analytical thinking as much as possible, this is Torah.

What we must not do is follow idle speculation which, without Torah guidance towards truth, will lead us to believe the baseless, emotional inclinations of our hearts. It is for this reason that Maimonides subsumes this prohibition under his Laws of Idolatry.

Idolatry is the very result of man’s subjective, emotional imaginations. Both idolatry and imagination are two points along the same path.

Idolatry is just a few steps down that path, after man allows himself to sinfully entertain his fantasies as truths.”

[] Yeshua’s words on Idolatry [from within the heart]

“That which proceeds out of the man is what defiles the man.

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.

All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” [Mark 7:21-23]

______________________________________

[] Idolatry and the Diaspora [Deuteronomy 28]

Again, turn back the clock to the height of the power of the Law just prior to 70 AD where we have:
— the spectacular Temple,
— the priesthood,
— the sacrifices,
— the feasts,
— the elimination of graven images,
— Yisrael’s devotion to observing the Law,

Nonetheless, HaShem was forced to invoke His Word and initiate the Diaspora:

“And it will be, if you do not obey the Lord, your God, to observe to fulfill all His commandments and statutes which I am commanding you this day, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you. . .

. . .And the Lord will scatter you among all the nations, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you will serve other deities unknown to you or your forefathers, [deities of] wood and stone.”

_____________________________________

The conclusion appears to be that Elohim demands a Holiness that cannot be achieved through the Law.

For how can any man or woman escape the pervasive idolatry within our hearts and minds?

Are we not all guilty of some act of idolatry everyday?

Perhaps this knowledge is why the Tanna, Yochanan ben Zakkai, died without any assurance whether G-d would grant him entrance into paradise or cast him into Gehenna.

But, Elohim promised us a better way than the Law– for He is our G-d of Salvation.

_____________________________________

Jim D.

“In his anger, Moses committed idolatry when he struck the rock to bring forth water for the rebellious house of Yisrael.”

Wrong interpretation.

First of all, your remarks seem imply that Moshe was purposefully attempting to become the object of idolatry himself. You, because you think Jesus is greater than Moshe, don’t understand that Moshe would NEVER do such a thing. If this is your point, then it is nothing less than ignorant and stupid thinking. (And, thanks to Donald Trump, “stupid” is the word of the week, and you will see it used here several times.)

Remember the serpent mounted on a staff which effected a cure from snake bites when gazed at? Later, Hezekiah destroyed it because people began to worship it. It’s no accident that the stories of Moshe striking the rock and the Nehushtan are adjacent each other. In Num 20:8, you see that God instructed Moshe to take his rod, yet He told him to order the rock to yield water, not to use the rod. That’s seems odd at first. Why would that be? The answer is so that the people would not begin to worship the rod, as they later began to worship the Nehushtan. So Moshe’s sin was that his temper got the best of him, as it tended to do, and he forgot God’s instruction in the moment and struck the rock with the rod out of habit. Moshe sinned by not following God’s instructions, and the problem is that God wanted to use the event to show the people that the power came from Him, not from any object. This was why Moshe received the severe punishment.

And more severe punishment awaits Jews who worship a man.

——————–

“Chava was deceived by satan and Adam rebelled against the Almighty by eating of the forbidden fruit in an attempt to make themselves into their own gods”

Wrong interpretation.

“And the serpent said unto the woman: ‘Ye shall not surely die; for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.”

The serpent didn’t say that she would have power like God — that she would be able to create a universe, establish laws, provide salvation, etc. Only that her eyes would be opened and that she would be able to discern between good and evil. But this was tertiary for Eve anyway, as the text tells us. First she realized it was good for eating, secondly she was attracted by how it looked, and then thirdly she wanted wisdom. She was not trying to be God, nor was Adam.

——————————

“Idolatry is just a few steps down that path, after man allows himself to sinfully entertain his fantasies as truths.”

Oh yes, that is so true. Like what messianic Jews do, believing in the fantasy of Jesus as though it’s true.

And here is something that Rabbi Moshe Ben-Chaim also said, in an interview of his commentary on Maimonides:

“The spread of Christianity may have brought about awareness, but a false one at that, and one that all nations will ultimately see as false, as the quote says, “…immediately they all will retract and will know that fallacy they inherited from their fathers, and that their prophets and fathers caused them to err.” Look at Maimonides’ opening words: “…Can there be a greater stumbling block than this (Christianity)? Also, “and this (one, i.e., Jesus) caused the Jews to be destroyed by the sword, and scattered their remnants and humbled them, and exchanged the Torah, and caused the majority of the world to err to serve a god other than the Lord. Christianity was pure evil.”

Seems like R. Ben Chaim is not your best friend here.

———————————-

“Again, turn back the clock to the height of the power of the Law just prior to 70 AD where we have…”

In fact, if you knew your history you would know that by this time Hellenism and Roman control had taken over the Temple. The high priest’s sacramental clothing, required for the Day of Atonement, was kept locked up and held hostage by the Romans. The Sadducees had become Roman puppets by the time of Jesus. Oh yeah — and more Jews were beginning to believe in Jesus. In fact Paul lived out his entire life and converted Jews to his delusional fantasies before the Destruction came. If there are spiritual reasons for the destruction, then they are these.

You wish to ignore the fact that Jerusalem rebelled during a major uprising in 68 – 70 CE, and the Romans responded in kind — as they did everywhere else! Hello!

—————————

The State of Israel was re-established in 1947 — long before the more recent trend of some Jews to become Christian and worship Jesus. Therefore, your theory that the diaspora was God’s punishment for “failure” of Jews to accept Jesus is disproven by this event. Secondly, there is no evidence that the remaining Jews who were not destroyed in the Holocaust repented and began to live religiously righteous lives — most were secular. This is the second proof that your theory is way off the mark.

————————-

“The conclusion appears to be that Elohim demands a Holiness that cannot be achieved through the Law.”

Wrong interpretation. Again. This conclusion is a myth, started by the delusional Paul.

If man could not achieve holiness through the law, then what was God doing and thinking when he gave the Law and said “Be holy for I am holy.” Was God as delusional as Paul? If it were not possible to be holy through the law then was it simply a game God was playing? And if it was His plan to bring Jesus for salvation, then why did He wait so long? Why would He even bother with revelation at Sinai, Torah, Temple, etc? Your “conclusion” comes from Paul and his own delusional musings and conclusions. And really — how stupid can anyone be to believe Paul over God???

——————–

Here’s another surprise for those who think Paul knew what he was talking about: God does NOT expect perfection!

If someone sins, there are consequences. Some sins deserve death, some “karet”, others the payment of fines, etc. All sins contaminated the land, especially the tabernacle (and later, the Temple). The blood sacrifices were used to decontaminate the holy places (the altar, tent of meeting, Holy of Holies, etc.) Blood was NOT used to decontaminate persons, except in a couple of very limited circumstances — namely purifying Aaron’s sons in establishing the generational priesthood, and putting the life back into those who were recovering from scale disease (leprosy), which was considered to be something like death.

People themselves were cleansed by paying for their sins by death or other punishments, and by repentance. Any and ALL remaining sin was transferred onto the scapegoat and removed when it was sent into the wilderness once a year on the Day of Atonement.

—————————

God knows that man is not and will never be perfect. He has provided a standard for Jews to strive by, and the ability to repent and atone for his sins on a daily and annual basis when he stumbles. It is an ongoing process. That is God’s way.

NOT your fantasy man-god Jesus. That is true idolatry.

So put away all your Hebrew sounding names and words, because those belong to Jews, not idolaters.

Kavi, you must be some sort of masochist for your religious views, as you are demonstrating more and more how incorrect and absurd your views concerning your jeezer are…You claim this:

“The conclusion appears to be that Elohim demands a Holiness that cannot be achieved through the Law.”

I guess you never read Deuteronomy chapter 30, Kavi.

Deut 30:10. when you obey the Lord, your God, to observe His commandments and His statutes WRITTEN IN THIS TORAH SCROLL, [and] when you return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deut 30:11. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.

Deut 30:12. It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?”

Deut 30:13. Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?”

Deut 30:14. Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, SO THAT YOU CAN FULFILL IT.

Hashem claims that we can fulfill Torah! Contrast this with paul’s false message that no matter how hard we try, we will never be able to fulfill what Hashem expects of us. This is contradictory to Deut 30:10-14. G-d says we CAN fulfill what He expects of us. Your paul claims we need jesus. Who are you going to believe? Hashem or paul?

The falsehood of your NT has been exposed six ways till sunday. Why do you keep embarrassing yourself, Kavi? Drop the jeezer narishkeit. You’re not convincing anyone here of anything but that you have no capacity to learn the truth of Hashem’s Torah…Either that or you don’t care…

Shalom

And as always, I have challenged Kavi multiple times to demonstrate to us where Hashem instructs us to worship the jeezer as a god. Of course, Kavi has completely ignored this challenge, and has instead diverted the conversation to strawman arguments. This is no surprise, but it astounds me how he keeps digging himself deeper and deeper into his hole of falsehood. If Kavi’s understanding that a belief in yeshu was so essential to our salvation and our righteousness before Hashem, you’d be best be able to back it up using the Tanach, showing us where Hashem told us to worship yeshu as a god. Since Kavi knows it isn’t there, he will continue to take us on his jeezer angel hunts and he will continue to contextually abuse passages and try and argue that we must worship G-d as some sort of man. (Chas V’Shalom.)

But Kavi couldn’t care less with G-d has to say to Israel concerning what He expects of us…Kavi couldn’t care less about G-d telling Israel in Deuteronomy 30:10-14 that we CAN fulfill Torah through our observance of the commandments as a nation. Kavi also doesn’t care that G-d explicitly tells Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM including man, in Deuteronomy 4:9-19. All Kavi cares about is his false idol, the jeezer, and abusing the context of the Tanach in order to falsely justify his idolatrous beliefs.

But unfortunately for Kavi, G-d is not on his side! G-d’s explicit commands and expectations for Israel are quite clear, both in Deuteronomy 4 and Deuteronomy 30. Both of these chapters in Torah are antithetical to the core christian understanding of the jeezer in the NT.

I’m not expecting Kavi to respond to what I wrote. I fully expect him to ramble on about another passage and contextually abuse it, as usual. Kavi will never respond to my challenge because he knows he has not foundation for his beliefs about jesus. The Tanach does not give credence to jesus as a god or even as the Messiah.

But Kavi couldn’t care less what G-d has to say on the matter…That much is crystal clear!

And a real shame…

Shalom

Jim D.

All true.

What Kavi desperately clings to is what every believer clings to: The feeling that they are close to, and have a personal relationship with, God. This concept that God became a man understandably makes it easy to relate to and identify with, because its easy for us to relate to people, especially a father figure. They also focus forward to the promise of eternal life, leaving behind the trials and tribulations of earthly existence, and as well fear the threat of burning in Hell.

It’s all lovely and, as I said, certainly understandable, but unfortunately it is false. It’s a hell of a lot to give up, though.

“The feeling that they are close to, and have a personal relationship with, God. ”

During my talk with a Messianic Jew this week end, he told me that he went to synagogues and that it is dead. For most of the time, synagogue repeat prayers in Hebrew. In a sense, I understood what he meant, I have been to synagogue before, it’s not like the usually church / MJC, singing to their Jesus and clapping their hand. It has been a tactic for MJ to encourage people to go there, I am sure, but did you ever had someone telling you that argument. (I almost feel like I should go to a Sikh temple just to prove that other false religion are really lively!)

What do you usually answer?

KAVI

Which of us has lived a more ‘holy’ life under the Law than Yochanan ben Zakkai?

Is anyone trying to?

Can anyone?

So, if you can claim to be more ‘holy’ than the Tanna– are you honestly prepared to present yourself before the Almighty Judge as cleansed from your sin and ‘holy’ according to His standard??

__________________

BTW> The Talmud equates “anger” with “idolatry”– so the anger that Moses exhibited in striking the rock and not honoring G-d was indeed idolatry.

BTWW> I already readily answered questions regarding Deuteronomy 4 to which no one could come up with an adequate defense– readers can see my prior posts.

Jim D.

Remi,

You have touched on what I have considered for some time now to be a significant issue within the Jewish community, and maybe the most important reason so many Jews remain unaffiliated or disaffected.

I have been to church services many times (not for myself, but like you, for my wife) and the focus and experience is very different than in the typical synagogue. Compared to lively church services, synagogue services can indeed seem dead. But there are a few distinctions to be made.

First of all, in the church services I’ve been to, the pastor leads the entire service. I will take it further: The pastor doesn’t just lead the service, he is the service. The congregation follows his selection of hymns, which vary from week to week, singing along to the lyrics provided (either in books or on a projection screen). They listen to his sermon, which is usually the key event. They come to the front and receive communion from him. There is often live music, playing tunes which are of course approved by him. The pastor is the spiritual guide, director and performer. Everyone’s along on his ride.

In contrast, Jewish services usually follow liturgy that is for the most part standardized within each denomination, and each week the core is repeated. Some synagogues mix it up more, others less. Usually, as you go from more liberal to more conservative congregations (e.g., from Reconstructionist to Chabad), you find more Hebrew, more structure, more standardization, and less music. Orthodox services are usually the repetition of the same liturgy every week, with additions or subtractions made depending on the dates of holy days, festivals, etc. All is in Hebrew except for the Rabbi’s d’var. For someone popping in, that can certainly seem dead.

In general, the focus in the synagogue is less about celebration and song, and more about personal prayer and community. In Christianity, it’s all about one’s individual relationship with God (except perhaps within the Eastern Orthodox Church), but in Judaism it’s much more about the community’s relationship with God. The siddur usually speaks in terms of “we” and “us”, not “me”.

Judaism is a community experience. We were not evangelized one at a time. We stood together, six million of us, at Sinai and witnessed Revelation as a people. So when someone pops in to a synagogue for a couple of hours to see if their heart strings get plucked, like going to see the latest action movie, they are completely missing the most important part of the Jewish spiritual experience — community. Hashem dwells among His congregation.

Even if someone doesn’t understand Hebrew, they can still connect with the Rabbi’s d’var. And if they like the Rabbi, they should start to attend regularly. They should consciously strive to make friends and become part of the congregation. When you feel really plugged into and part of a congregation, that’s when you begin to understand and experience the spirituality of Jewish life.

The problem is, many synagogues, more so the orthodox and conservative, don’t include a portion of the service geared toward unpracticed visitors. I think that’s a mistake.

Kavi, can you show me where Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai proclaimed jesus as his “lord and savior” or as the Messiah?

No?

That’s what I thought…

So shut up and stop abusing Talmudic sources to falsely champion your false messiah and false god aka jesus.

The Tanach tells us how to achieve righteousness and it has nothing to do with your jeezer. Your jeezer isn’t mentioned even once as even a way to achieve righteousness or salvation. Yet you have the audacity to insist that belief in your jeezer is the ONLY WAY to achieve such?!

Get out of town!

The Tanach tells us how righteousness and salvation can be achieved and your jeezer has nothing to do with it!

Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.

We do have the ability to merit righteousness through Torah. Being “sinless” clearly isn’t a prerequisite for righteousness necessarily, as Proverbs 24:16 makes abundantly clear…

But apparently you disagree…

Here is another verse from Torah explaining that our righteousness is attained through our following of of Torah:

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.’

And I already posted Deuteronomy 30:10-14 for you…A passage that completely decimates your false understanding of the Law in light of your false NT…

And I encourage the readers of this blog to review our discussion of Deuteronomy 4:9-19. The text clearly states that we are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM including man. This disqualifies your jeezer from being “G-d in the flesh” as you idolatrously believe about your jeezer…

You are a testament to the stupidity of christianity, Kavi. Keep of the splendid work!

Shalom

KAVI

I heartily agree with the Law– IF YOU CAN DO IT!!

And that’s the catch– no one has ever been able to fulfill the requirements of the Law [except Yeshua].

Even Moses could not fulfill the requirements of the Law– if he had, G-d would have allowed him to enter the Land of Promise.

Instead, Moses gained his righteousness through His Faith/Emunah [“it is in your mouth and in your heart” – Deuteronomy 30:14]

So, please just answer the question without even consideration of Yeshua— WHO will admit they have as achieved as much ‘righteousness’ under the Law as the Tannaim?

BTW> Perhaps some of you should re-examine your idolatrous [i.e., angry] posts? I myself never get angry even when some of you have called me, let’s say, rather ‘less than flattering’, names?

_________________________

I myself never get angry

Here you go Kavi, you are self-righteous, and self-righteous don’t enter the kingdom of G-d.

Just kidding :)

Ok, the problem is, how do we know Jesus is sinless? Of course the new-testament claim he was, but that, nobody can see. God said in Isaiah 1 that our sins would be as white as snow if we are willing and obedient. What does that mean?

I know also that Daniel was righteous (Ezekiel 14:14)

There are no indication that Daniel trusted on the future messiah’s righteousness.

There are no place in the tanakh that could show that we had to trust in Jesus for his righteousness. Here’s what it say:

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

That bible verse goes like that “Jesus righteousness will not be credited to you, because the one who sins is the one who will die”

PS. I might have acted angry or mean in some of my comments, if it is the case, I should not have done so, So please accept my apology.

Thank you

“Be angry, and do not sin.” (Psalms 4:4)

All anger is not wrong. There’s such a thing as a righteous anger, which is anger at idolatry and falsehoods, and G-d Himself gets quite angry about such matters.

Kavi, Eliyahu actually made fun of the worshippers of baal and insulted them to their face. What I am saying to you is tame in comparison to what Eliyahu did to the worshippers of baal.

I Kings 18:27And it was at noon that Elijah scoffed at them, and he said, “Call with a loud voice, for he is a god. [Perhaps] he is talking or he is pursuing [enemies] or he is on a journey; perhaps he is sleeping and will awaken.

Maybe your pagan idol you call jesus is just talking or pursing enemies. Maybe he is on a journey or perhaps he is sleeping. Maybe thats why he hasn’t “come back” yet…

Or maybe your jeezer is a false messiah and a false god. That’s the ticket!

And since you’re such a righteous person for supposedly never getting angry, It is interesting to note that one of G-d’s attributes is that He is SLOW to anger…

Exodus 34:6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed: Lord, Lord, benevolent God, Who is compassionate and gracious, **SLOW TO ANGER** and abundant in loving kindness and truth,

I’ve been patient with you Kavi…Very very patient. But you have shown time and time again that you aren’t here to learn truth, but rather to preach falsehood and ignore us when we clearly refute you on your idolatrous view concerning your jesus. The Tanach does not speak of jesus as our “lord and savior” or as the Messiah in any capacity. Yet you ignore us time and time again.

At this point, you get your just desserts. There are times when anger is appropriate. Are you willing to call the prophet Nehemiah an “idolator” for his anger in Nehemiah chapter 13?

Nehemiah 13:23 Also in those days, I saw the Jews who had married Ashdodite, Ammonite, and Moabite women.

Nehemiah 13:24 And half their children were speaking Ashdodite, and they did not know how to speak Hebrew, and [so it was] with the language of every people.

Nehemiah 13:25 And I quarreled with them, and I cursed them, and I struck some of them, and I plucked out their hair, and I adjured them by God, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons nor take their daughters either for your sons or for yourselves.

Nehemiah 13:26 Did not Solomon the king of Israel sin with these, although there was no king like him among the great nations, beloved by his God, Who appointed him king over all Israel? The foreign women caused even him to sin.

I guess according to Kavi, Nehemiah must be an idolator since he got angry… :-/

Here’s a suggestion, Kavi. Stop contextually abusing Rabbinic sources. Do yourself a favor and stick to your own pagan NT. You have your own book of falsehood to familiarize yourself with. Since you clearly have no intention of following G-d’s Torah, I suggest you stop contextually abusing Rabbinic texts and keep your pagan man god to yourself. None of the Rabbis spoken of in the Talmud ever even considered your jeezer to be a god, let alone the Messiah. So please, stop abusing sources and recognize that the Tanach does not support your jeezer as the Messiah or a god.

So Kavi, I politely ask you to keep your piece of excrement you call jesus to yourself. Idolatry is comparable to feces and that is exactly what your jeesus is to us.

Shalom

Kavi says the darndest things!

“And that’s the catch– no one has ever been able to fulfill the requirements of the Law [except Yeshua].”

Really Kavi? Did your “yeshua” fulfill the female requirements of niddah? Did your “yeshua” have a period? I’d say that is a more miraculous feat than a resurrection or a virgin birth! Why didn’t your NT mention jesus’s period!?

Did your “yeshua’ fulfill the requirements of Levitical priests? Was jesus even a Levite at all?!

This is a demonstration of how christians have no idea what observing Torah really means. Observing Torah is a requirement for the nation. Each individual person, male, female, Levite, Judahite, Ephraimite etc. has their own potential to fulfill Torah in their own capacity. The requirement to fulfill Torah was never dependent on us being “completely sinless.” Each person has their own individual capacity to reach their potential and only Hashem knows that potential. It is the responsibility of the nation of Israel to come together to fulfill Torah in each of our own individual capacities.

The christians like Kavi have bastardized the idea of what it means to “fulfill Torah” and have said that it can only mean that a “sinless man” can “fulfill Torah” for us. Hashem never tells us this in the Tanach. Rather, Hashem tells us clearly in Deuteronomy 30:10-14 that WE CAN FULFILL TORAH. It’s G-d’s word against yours Kavi…I would be worried if I were you…

So Kavi sits here telling us that his jeezer “fulfilled Torah” by being “sinless.” This is another baseless claim, that is absurdly foolish. Were you watching the jeezer when he was a toddler, Kavi? Were you watching him with a camera, overseeing his every move? Can you give any evidence to show us that your jeezer was absolutely “sinless” other than baseless testaments in the NT? Do you think matthew, mark, luke, and john stalked the jeezer all his life and made sure he never sinned? Do you think they made sure he never lied to his parents? Do you think they hooked up a thought machine to his mind and determined whether or not he had adulterous thoughts?

So keep going around calling your jeezer “sinless,” Kavi…Unsubstantiated claims do nothing but make you look more foolish…Keep going around telling me that the jeezer “fulfilled” Psalms 110 and Daniel 7:13 with his make believe “kingdom” that he never had. Keep telling me that your jeezer’s death “fulfilled” Daniel 9 and Isaiah 53 and that sin is atoned for, despite the fact that sin still exists in the world today.

Kavi is a car salesman trying to sell us a car with a broken engine. But when we challenge him and tell him that the car is broken, Kavi refuses to turn on the ignition and instead rambles on about how great other parts of the car are. Sometimes he will even talk about other cars and try and discredit them.

But Kavi won’t turn on the ignition because he knows if he does, his broken car will be exposed as such. Your jeezer is a broken car, Kavi. You can pretend like it runs and does what you say it should do, but at the end of the day, your jeezer is an empty shell of falsehood, analogous to a broken car. Your jeezer’s death did not ultimately atone for sin and our belief in him has no effect on our salvation.

So please Kavi, do yourself a favor and stop selling your broken car. We’ve already gotten the BBB involved. Your reputation as a “salvation” salesman has been tarnished. Don’t expect to be getting any more business, except maybe from some desperate ignoramuses…

Shalom

Jim D.

Yes, I also fell back into responding to Kavi — even after I suggested that we not. But that’s because he started making those lame and extremely offensive statements about 70 CE and the Diaspora. It was just a half step away from “explaining” the Shoah for the same stupid reason — so I couldn’t let it go without setting the facts straight. But Kavi’s not interested in facts. He’s interested in mythology, and if he had been born in another time and place he’d believe in the Boogy Man.

It has been clear enough for many weeks that Kavi will not accept any facts that counter his/the Christian view. Does anyone here remember even once when he did? Keep in mind that he has probably posted over 50 times in the last couple of months. He is just here to spout off absurd declarations as he repeats the party line like an automaton, asleep, and uses Hebrew words to impress everyone while he’s at it.

Yes, he’s here to sell his idolatry cloaked in Hebrew words quotes from the sages. And not only here, I’m sure. Here, he can’t get away with it, as is clear. Notice he’s running out of ammunition, but he blindly proceeds anyway. The problem is, I’m sure he’s doing this elsewhere, and, God forbid, luring uneducated Jews to idolatry. That is evil, as far as I’m concerned (and God Himself).

The book I recommended before by Geza Vermes is a study in separating the wheat from the chaff — the sayings of Yeshua that were more likely authentic vs. all the bullcrap the NT authors piled on top of it. One of Yeshua’s sayings which was probably authentic was:

“Do not give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and turn around and tear you to pieces.”

So Paul did, and so we have been trampled under.

I think we have effectively countered 90% of what Kavi has to offer. Maybe we should turn our attention to other topics and other commentators, even if just among ourselves. Let sleeping dogs lie.

KAVI

Interesting–

A couple conclusions based on avoiding the obvious [Remi excepted]:

[a] Moses committed the sin of idolatry because his anger was apparently not ‘righteous’ and G-d rejected him from entering the Land of Promise.

[b] No one will admit they keep the Law as well as the Tannaim

[c] G-d PROMISED Yisrael that there would be no Diaspora if they obeyed the Law– they didn’t and G-d was forced to use Rome to send them into exile [Deuteronomy 28; Daniel 2]

These are all black and white comments that have nothing to do with Yeshua– why raise so much fuss since all these statements are true?

Curious . . .
________________________

BTW> Does not Ezekiel 20 restate the same [along with another interesting fact regarding the Law]:

“Also, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them among the lands, because they had not observed My ordinances, but had rejected My statutes and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were on the idols of their fathers.

I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;” [Ezekiel 20:23-25]

________________________

Let’s say Kavi, that you are right, Jesus was sinless and never broke the law. Tell me where in the Tanakah, his righteousness could be transferred to someone else? Good for Jesus, he was perfect, but why should anybody believe that his sinlessness could be magically transfer to anybody? (except that he claimed so) Please use the Tanakh to show that someone sinless could transfer his merit to somebody else?

Moses sinned because he disobeyed G-d, not because he committed idolatry!

remi4321

Funny, he said so! He is sinless, so it must be true! LOL

Remi, that’s the core of all of Kavi’s arguments. The jeezer said it, so it must be true! The jeezer didn’t fulfill Daniel 7:13 or Psalms 110 in any capacity, yet Kavi sits here and insists that the jeezer will “return” to fulfill these prophesies simply because he “said” he would…

So in essence, Kavi has no evidence to support that the jeezer fulfilled any of the Messianic prophesies.

Now Kavi is intrigued by the exile we are currently in. This was prophesied in Hosea 3:4-5.

Hosea 3:4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.

Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel RETURN, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

How do we return to Hashem if we do not have any sacrifices? Hosea tells us in Hosea 14:2-3!

Hosea 14:2. RETURN, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.

Clearly, the subject of the next verse explains HOW Israel is supposed to RETURN to Hashem so that OUR INIQUITIES WILL BE FORGIVEN. Of course, the next verse explains just that!

Hosea 14:3 Take WORDS with yourselves and RETURN TO THE LORD. Say, “YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.

The Torah itself also gives us instructions as to what to do if we are in exile and we have no means of giving sacrifices in the Temple or Mishkan. Leviticus 26:38-43 elaborates:

Leviticus 26:38 You will become lost among the nations, and the land of your enemies will
consume you.

Leviticus 26:40 **THEY WILL CONFESS THEIR INIQUITY and the iniquity of their fathers** their betrayal that they dealt Me, and that they also treated Me as happenstance.

Leviticus 26:42 and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob, and also My covenant [with] Isaac, and also My covenant [with] Abraham I will remember. And I will remember the Land,

If the Jewish people did not need “jesus blood/death” to merit going back to the land of Israel and the rebuilding of the Holy Temple during the first exile, then why would we need it now?!

We don’t!

We don’t need your “jesus blood,” Kavi. The Tanach is clear on this!

So keep your jeezer blood fetish to yourself.

Shalom

Jim D.

Kavi is a good example of the attitude of Christians; that they understand the Tanakh better than Jews do, rabbis and all. Maybe especially rabbis. And furthermore, that their testament can and does supersede ours at will — whichever verse they want and however they want it to. Essentially, the Christian viewpoint on scripture — and Judaism — is an expression of complete and total arrogance.

Where does this arrogance come from? The NT, of course, where the Jewish apostles are complete idiots, Pharisees are lost in their law and are devoid of spirituality, and Jews are born of their father the devil. The Gospels are fictional accounts, and Paul’s gospel, which came first, was written on the back of Judaism in order to provide the new theology with authority. The Greeks had no regard for new fangled religions, but many Greeks had respect for Judaism for it’s moral teaching and it’s antiquity.

Once the new Church was well enough along, they got rid of Paul’s gospel and wrote their own, and in the process dumped Judaism in the trash. You can see the progression of the distancing from and the hostility toward Jews in the chronological development of the Gospels, from Mark, which was written before 70 CE shortly after Paul’s death, to John, written several decades later.

KAVI

Shalom!

Let’s switch gears and try to work through Remi’s question logically:

[a] Since the Tanna, Yochanen ben Zakkai, was exemplary in following the Law and yet even he could not in honest conscience “know” whether HaShem would judge him worthy of Gehenna or not– why should I or anyone else turn to Rabbinic Judaism?

[b] Since Moses states plainly that his righteousness was gained through Faith/Emunah and not by works of the Law [“it is in your mouth and in your heart” – Deuteronomy 30:14]– why should I or anyone else place our hope in the Law?

[c] Therefore, since the Law cannot save and Faith does, we must ask– what does Elohim expect us to believe?

Ω Moses wrote that a Redeemer would one day come to crush the power of sin and the power of sins author, satan [Genesis 3]

Ω Moses also admitted he would not be unique– for one day G-d would raise up a Prophet like himself and that G-d gave an oath that anyone who did not listen to this future Prophet would face judgment: “It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.” [Deuteronomy 18:19]

Ω And, for all true Mashiachim [Jew and Gentile], Isaiah 53 states more than plainly that this Redeemer will die on behalf of mankind to cleanse them of sin. [note: there are whole websites devoted to Isaiah 53– I can go into detail, but anyone can do their own research.]

[d] So, Who is this Redeemer / Prophet that G-d would send from heaven into the world and into the seed of a woman to “save” mankind from their sins?

“His name is”:
Ω “G-d Saves”
Ω Yeshua / Yehoshuah
Ω ישוע / יהושוע

BTW> When I say “Shalom”, that’s what the Basar brings to those who hear and receive the ‘good news’– a full, complete Peace between Elohim and mankind because redemption is graciously granted to those who have Faith in Yeshua for forgiveness of sins.

Jim D.

Endlesscirclesendlesscirclesendlesscircles….

[**] Hey Remi — How bout them Mets! Can you believe they’re actually winning a few games?

Kavi,

Peter,

Deut 18:15-19 refers to Joshua in the immediate context and all subsequent prophets after him. Lets look at Deut 18:15 and 18:18 more closely:

Deut 18:15 [Moses speaking] “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet **LIKE ME** from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him…

Ok, so now we need to establish the context of what it means to be “LIKE” Moses. Verse 18 establishes this context concerning this particular chapter:

Deut 18:18 [God speaking] ‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen **LIKE YOU,** [Like Moses] **and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.**

So what does it mean to be LIKE Moses in this context? Simple! All at it means is that the prophet will SPEAK THE WORDS THAT GOD COMMANDS HIM. That’s all! Now, what prophet do we know in the Bible who fits this description?

Every prophet in the Bible speaks the word of God…That’s the definition of a prophet!

So who does this apply to? ALL PROPHETS! But in the immediate context, it applies to Joshua, since he was Moses’s successor. The Book of Joshua gives us explicit proof of this:

Joshua 1:5. No man shall stand up before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so shall I be with you. I will not weaken My grasp on you nor will I abandon you.

Joshua 1:16. And they answered Joshua saying: All that you have commanded us we shall do and wherever you send us we shall go.

Joshua 1:17. Just as we obeyed Moses in everything, so shall we obey you. Only that the Lord your God be with you as He was with Moses.

Joshua 3:7. And the Lord said to Joshua: This day I will begin to make you great in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that as I was with Moses, so will I be with you.

Joshua 4:14. On that day the Lord made Joshua great in the sight of all Israel, and they feared him, as they had feared Moses, all the days of his life.

Joshua 11:15. As the Lord commanded Moses His servant, so did Moses command Joshua, and so did Joshua; he left nothing undone of all that the Lord commanded Moses.

I would argue that there is no prophet in the entire Bible who is compared to Moses as much as Joshua. However, this prophesy is not specific to just one prophet!

We can also use grammatical consistency to demonstrate that Deut 18:18 does not refer to only one prophet, but rather, the general concept of “prophets” who succeeded Moses. Lets look at the verses again:

Deut 18:17. And the Lord said to me, “They have done well in what they have spoken.

Deut 18:18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.

Deut 18:19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.

These verses describe “the prophet like Moses” who you deem to be one singular individual, namely, the Messiah. (Or in your case, Jesus.) Knowing this, lets keep reading on:

Deut 18:20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

Deut 18:21. Now if you say to yourself, “How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?”

Deut 18:22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Look at words. Look at the grammar concerning the fact that both “the prophet like Moses” and “the false prophet” are referred to in the third person SINGULAR.

If we are to be grammatically consistent with your interpretation of Deut 18:18, namely that “the prophet like Moses” only refers to one singular person, shouldn’t we also interpret Deut 18:20-22 in the same way concerning “the false prophet”? Shouldn’t we also say that there will only be “one false prophet”? If you want to be grammatically consistent with the passage, this is really your only option. Do you really want to interpret Deut 18:20-22 as referring to only one false prophet? Surely not!

I get that you want to force this passage to exclusively refer to the Messiah. However, this is clearly not the case.

Shalom

Concerning Isaiah 53, in order to determine who the servant is, we need to look at the context. Isaiah 49:3-6 is a good place to start.

Isaiah 49:3. And He said to me, “You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast.”

Isaiah 49:4. And I said, “I toiled in vain, I consumed my strength for nought and vanity.” Yet surely my right is with the Lord, and my deed is with my God.

Isaiah 49:6. And He said, “It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that
My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.”

So how is this reconciled? How can Israel bring back Israel? The answer is simple! Isaiah

49:3 refers to a specific part of Israel, namely the righteous remnant. (G-d promised a righteous remnant of Israel throughout all generations.) Verse 5 refers to the remnant bringing back the rest of Israel back to righteousness. And finally, verse 6 refers to the newly restored Israel being “light to the nations” through the revelation of truth through Hashem.
In other words, this is a two step process:

1. The righteous remnant of Israel will bring back the rest of Israel to righteousness. (Isaiah 49:3-5)

2. The newly restored nation of Israel will serve to be a “light to the nations.” (Isaiah 49:6)
So ultimately, the nation of Israel is the servant who will be “a light unto the nations.”

However, in order to get to that point, the righteous remnant of Israel will first gather back the rest of Israel back to Torah. It’s a two step process.
The servant is the righteous remnant of ISRAEL.

Isaiah 51:7. Hearken to Me, you who know righteousness, a people that has My Torah in their heart, fear not reproach of man, and from their revilings be not dismayed.

This is yet another verse which highlights the suffering of G-d righteous servant, Israel. Isaiah 54 even refers to the “SERVANTS of the Lord”!

Isaiah 54:17. Any weapon whetted against you shall not succeed, and any tongue that contends with you in judgment, you shall condemn; this is the heritage of the SERVANTS OF

THE LORD and their due reward from Me, says the Lord.
Isaiah 52:15 describes the gentiles kings who will shut their mouths because of their astonishment of Israel’s vindication by Hashem:

Isaiah 52:15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

Micah 7:16-17 echoes this sentiment:

Micah 7:16. Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.

Micah 7:17. They shall lick the dust as a snake, as those who crawl on the earth. They shall quake from their imprisonment; they shall fear the Lord, our God, and they shall fear you.

So there you have it. The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 ultimately is the nation of Israel. Please note that the Messiah is a part of Israel, too.

Shalom

And Kavi, your question concerning Yochanan ben Zakkai is missing the point of what Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai was conveying. Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai was demonstrating his humility and honestly before Hashem that ONLY HASHEM KNOWS THE FATE OF US! None of us can say with 100% confidence that we know exactly what our fate will be when we die. Any human being who makes such a claim is a fool. Only Hashem knows our fate and Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai was demonstrating this fact. Only Hashem knows our true potential. Some people in this world are born without arms. How are they supposed to perform the mitzvah of putting on teffilin? Some people are born without being able to talk. How are they supposed to pray to Hashem? Only Hashem knows their hearts and what their potential truly is, and for anyone to claim “I know my fate when I die” is to be an arrogant fool.

And Kavi, you never cease to amaze me at your relentless contextual abuse of the Torah. You tried to isolate Deuteronomy 30:14 and try and make it all about “faith.” I showed you the context of these verses in Deuteronomy 30:10-14 and all you did was put on your jeezer glasses and say “OH IT’S ABOUT FAITH! THIS ISN’T ABOUT THE LAW AT ALL!”

Except you skipped right over Deuteronomy 30:10, which I posted earlier in context with verse 14…

WHEN YOU OBEY THE LORD, YOUR G-D, TO OBSERVE HIS COMMANDMENTS AND HIS STATUTES WRITTEN IN THIS TORAH SCROLL

Get it Kavi? Or do I have to write it out for you 100 times until you get it?!

Kavionony 30:10 when you have faith in the jeezer, your god and messiah, that he died for you on the cross and will come back someday with all your heart and soul.

You wish that’s what it said Kavi. But that’s not what it says.

You really need to go back to school Kavi…You clearly don’t comprehend language or understand anything about context.

Either that or you are a delusional fool…Or a pathological liar…One of the three.

Shalom

And your Genesis 3:15 argument is laughable, Kavi. I’ve heard it many many times…

There is nothing unique about this verse implying a “virgin birth” as you falsely claim. Evidence to support this comes from Genesis 16:10, where an angel says this to Hagar:

Genesis 16:10 And the angel of the Lord said to her, **”I will greatly multiply your seed,** and it will not be counted for abundance.”

So if women “do not have seed” as you claim, then what do you make of Hagar?

Did she have a “virgin birth” too?

Obviously not…You’re using eisegisis to force your explanation of Genesis 3:15. It has nothing to do with your supposed “virgin birth” that your false NT claims of jesus in your false book of matthew…

Shalom

Kavi, keeping the law does not save. What does the L-rd requires of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
But as for me, I watch in hope for the LORD (not Jesus), I wait for God my Savior (YHVH, not Jesus); my God will hear me.
See, we trust and hope in YHVH and because we trust, we want to do what pleases Him. For Jews, it would be keeping the Law. As for me, I can’t right now, nor am I obliged to do it. But we hope in Him, not in man, and we trust in Him. We keep what He say, for Jews, it is the whole Torah, for the nations, it is worship G-d alone.

Jim D.

Shalom!

Thank you for your interesting thoughts..

[**] So clearly we can conclude then that L-rd Yeshua is HaMaschiah and Hashem, for whom the true Mashiachim await.

K-vi

Jim…er… K-vi – hahaha:)

[1] Clearly!

KAVI

Shalom!

It is good to see the avid reading of the Scripture!

[*] Deuteronomy 18
Moses speaks of only one Prophet– any other interpretation is simply beyond the peshat.

If G-d spoke of Joshua, G-d would not need to write of a FUTURE prophet.

BTW> The concepts of Deuteronomy 18:15-19 and Psalm 2:12 match

[*] Deuteronomy 30:10-14
‘Commandments’ are what one “does”– whereas Faith/Emunah is expressed by “word” and the “heart”

BTW> The Word of Faith is spoken of by Hosea and Moses

****“Take words with you and return to the L-RD.
Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity
and receive us graciously,
That we may present the fruit of our lips.” [Hosea 14:3]

****”But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.” [Deuteronomy 30:14]

[*] Genesis 3:15
When Miryam conceived, Yeshua the Creator directly joined Himself to one of her ovum and therefore was able to cloth himself with flesh and bone.

In doing so, our Redeemer Yeshua made Himself able to become our ‘near kinsman’.

[*] Isaiah 53
This wonderful Chapter is a bit too extensive for me to cover fully– again whole books and website pages have been written about it [for example, the book by Mitch Glaser]

Ω In context, Isaiah clearly identifies two servants in his prophecies– Yisrael is the one that is blind, deaf, etc. while the other one, Yeshua, is obedient and pure;

Ω The pronouns in Isaiah 53 are impossible to match up with the interpretation that the remnant of Yisrael is the suffering servant [for example, verses 4-6].

Ω It is also incorrect to use Isaiah 49 to attribute the ‘remnant’ as the servant who can bring the rest of Yisrael back. For in actuality, Isaiah 49 represents a dialog between the Ancient of Days and Yeshua, the Son of Man:

The words of Isaiah speak of many intractable problems with the ‘remnant theory’:
— 49:5 and 49:7 — The pronouns do not match up with a group of people;
— 53:8 — It is not logical to kill off the remnant;
— 53:3 — It is not logical for Yisrael to despise and reject ‘the remnant’
— 53:6 — The remnant [and all mankind] has gone astray into sin;
— etc.

So, Isaiah 49 and 53 have only one interpretation– that of a single Servant and Yeshua is that Servant.

[*] The Return of Yeshua HaMashiach
We have a very simple chain of events:
Ω The Messiah MUST come prior to the destruction of the Second Temple [Daniel 9; Malachi 3]
Ω The Messiah, Yeshua, must suffer, die, and return to heaven [Isaiah 53, Psalm 16:10]
Ω Yeshua will again be seated at the right hand of the Ancient of Days until His enemies are punished [Psalm 110]
Ω Yeshua will indeed come again after MANY days [Hosea 3:4-5]
Ω Upon Yeshua’s return, Yisrael will seek His forgiveness through the word of Faith and mourn for the one WHOM THEY PIERCED [Zechariah 12:10; Hosea 14:2]

[*] Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai
R.Zakkai wept profusely because attempting to gain righteousness by the Law will never satisfy the Holy Judge of all eternity–

Contrast R.Zakkai to David and Abraham– Both Abraham and David knew the blessedness of being sure of his eternity with G-d because their sins were forgiven through Faith/Emunah and NOT works of the Law. [Genesis 15:6 and Psalm 32:1-2].

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