Article: Judaism vs. Christianity
By Moshe Ben-Chaim
Last week we published an article, which focused on defending our Jewish children and students against Christian proselytizers. With tens of millions of Christian dollars financing missionaries to convert Jews, we cannot sit by idly, or imagine our children are exempt from their tactics. We reacted to the intolerable absence of education in our Jewish schools, urging parents, and teachers to immediately commence classes that examine religions like Christianity, and teach our children the falsehoods contained in these man-made religions. As our Rabbis have taught, we do not cower from any area in life. We approach any and all matters with a fearless zeal to first learn what the truth is, and then apply it in action. Moses taught the people, “When you come into the land that G-d your G-d gives you, do not learn to do as the abominations of those nations.” (Deut., 18:9)
Rashi, quoting Talmud Sanhedrin 65 states on this verse, “But, you shall ‘learn to understand to teach’. Meaning, understand their ways, how destructive they are, and teach your children ‘do not do such and such, for this is the way of the idolatrous nations”. Rashi, our leading Rabbi, tells us when Moses instructed us not to learn from the ways of idolatrous people, it was a prohibition of committing idolatry – not a decree to put blinders on our eyes and ignore their practices. In fact, Rashi teaches we must learn their practices for the purpose of teaching our children what is falsehood, and what is destructive. Our entire Talmudic tractate “Idolatry” is based on the Rabbi’s study of what is idolatrous. We must do as they did, examine destructive practices, and teach our children so as to guard them and ourselves from harm.
We do not play politics, distorting truth for any consideration. Any person, who would sidestep the truth distorts Judaism, and defames G-d’s words. In Jewish life, “truth” guides our every action. Therefore we speak openly and honestly about Judaism’s view on everything, including other religions, and Christianity: G-d abhors – more than all else – any form of idolatry. G-d’s Torah is replete with prohibitions and devastating punishments for violators. Anyone who reads Exodus and Deuteronomy cannot deny this. If any Christian finds these words harsh, your first error is taking this matter personally, when you have not been singled out and attacked. Your second error is feeling defensive, when I have not yet begun to explain my view of “idolatry”. Perhaps after I have done this, you will agree.
G-d warns against adding to His words or detracting from them. For this reason, we do not accept the Christian view that G-d is changing His laws given at Sinai, replacing them with Christianity. One cannot deny G-d’s open declaration through Moses, (Deut. 13:1) “This entire thing which I command you (the Torah), it shall you guard to keep it, do not add on it, and do not detract from it.” G-d does not change His mind. For if you will say He does, then nothing is consistent, not even a Christian interpretation. But more primarily, G-d does not change, as he knows all future considerations. Furthermore, change implies a “need” for that change, and G-d cannot have any needs nor does He change, “For I, G-d, do not change…” (Malachi, 3:6)
When we discuss the violations of the Torah, and religions like Christianity that partake of these violations, we always address the flawed principle, and never attack individuals. We have made this clear so many times, in so many of our articles. Yet, time and time again, individual Christians read our words, and become up-in-arms against us, as if we are attacking them personally. I guess this will always be the case, as many people lack the objectivity to separate themselves from abstract beliefs. Until you can be objective, your emotions will blur your objectivity, and you won’t be able to hear us. But for those who can separate themselves, there is much to be said. I would like to take this opportunity to address some of the reactions to our article from both our Jewish and Christian readers.
Tolerance
One Jewish reader wrote in urging our tolerance of all religions and beliefs. I agree – we must be tolerant of other people and religions, as this also protects our own freedoms. More primary is the fact that G-d desires that each member of mankind be free to make his every decision based on his own free will. Judaism fully supports this principle – it is G-d’s will. So what is this reader’s concept of tolerance, over and above our position, that he needed to write us? Certainly, he does not mean “tolerance” in the extreme degree that I start to live by those other religions. His “tolerance” also must not require me to ask my children to live by another religious code. Does he mean that I do not interfere with those other religionists in their practice? Well, we do not suggest that one should interfere – that violates G-d’s desire that man functions from his own free will. The only other possibility for his definition of “tolerance” I see, is that we do not condemn other religions. But here is the problem: his desire to be “tolerant”, directly opposes G-d’s desire. I will explain.
Tolerance is Cruelty to Christians
Judaism is concerned that ALL people have the truth – this is our goal as Jews, to offer the world G-d’s Torah. To refrain from making G-d’s Torah available to others is a direct violation of G-d’s will. For the Bible itself records Moses addressing the Jews: (Deut. 4:6-8) “And guard them and do them (the commands) for they are your wisdom and your understanding in the eyes of the nations, who will hear these statutes, and they will say, ‘What a wise and understanding people is this great nation’. For what great nation has G-d close to them, as G-d, our G-d, whenever we call to Him. And what great nation has statutes and righteous laws as this entire Torah, that I give to you today?”
How can Moses say our laws will enamor other nations, if we are not acting out these statutes in our daily lives, and in our teachings? It is only by our adherence to our positive and negative commands that other nations will come to learn of G-d’s Torah. But if we do not practice and do not teach our people G-d’s Bible, His Torah, then we not only violate G-d’s law and hurt our own people, but we also hurt all other nations by violating G-d’s will and keeping His laws hidden from their sight.
Although misinterpreted in the opposite vein, the very fact that we openly discuss and identify a religion as violating G-d’s Torah, is a demonstration of our adherence to G-d’s will, and a concern for other people. So let us speak the truth and cease from the charade of playing politics to earn the love of others through phony “tolerance”. G-d clearly denounces idolatry, He does not “tolerate” it, and does not desire that anyone – Jew or Gentile – be misled by false practices, even if followed by millions. Jewish causes often woo Christian groups for verbal or financial support. But if in doing so you conceal your real Jewish identity, then what you seek to support is no longer Judaism. You are also unfair to your Christian counterparts by keeping them in the dark regarding G-d’s true position on following man-gods like Jesus. If you desire the good for yourselves and others, the only option is honesty.
Identifying Idolatry
So how do we identify true idolatry? Of course this is where the issue gets gray. But this is why G-d gave one law to clarify our misconceptions. As always, when desirous of learning G-d’s Torah, we inquire of those to whom He entrusted His torah – the Jews. This is historical fact. When referring to those Jews – our Rabbis and Talmudic Sages – we learn that idolatry is clearly defined as “the belief in anything other than G-d possessing power”. The Egyptians believed in deities who dominated many aspects of the heavens and earth, each one possessing power over the Nile, the sun, the moon, fertility, rain, crops and so on. Christianity believes in a Trinity, something other than “One” G-d, and that G-d can become physical, although G-d Himself says, “To whom can you equate me?” Meaning, G-d can have no similitude to anything, including gross, physical entities. So the Christian notion that G-d became man is against G-d’s word, and is plain stupid. Further, the very concept of a Trinity is not only absurd by definition, but it violates G-d’s words, “Listen Israel, G-d is our G-d, G-d is One.” (Deut. 6:4) Additionally, gods of silver and gold are severe violations. Belief in G-d being physical or associated to anything physical also violates our Bible, the Torah: “And guard your souls greatly, for you did not see any form on the day that G-d spoke to you in Horeb from amidst flames. Lest you act destructively, and make for yourself a statue, the form of any design, the form of male or female.” (Deut., 4:15,16) Statues of Jesus clearly violate the very Bible that Christians retain. Let me repeat that verse, “Lest you act destructively, and make for yourself a statue, the form of any design, the form of male or female.” Christianity violates G-d’s words again and again. And the violations are in the most severe area – “what G-d is”. To possess and teach the wrong idea of G-d is the greatest crime.
Christianity: Man is Central, and is Infallible – Judaism: G-d is Central and Man Sins
At the core of Christianity’s beliefs, is the deification of man. Jesus is never depicted as having sinned, which again, contradicts G-d’s words (Ecclesiastes, 7:20) “For man is not righteous in the land who does good and never sins.” Judaism focuses on the Creator alone, never hiding man’s errors. Even Moses’ sins are openly written. The man Jesus is also far less abstract than G-d, and more emotionally appealing. This explains Christianity’s wildfire reach in so short a period from its inception.
Before Jesus, before Moses, before anything or anyone…there was One Cause of the entire universe. By definition, this Cause we call G-d has no need for anything. He is self-sufficient. G-d desires we have the truest possible concept of Him. He therefore clearly commands against the notions of Trinity, statues, deities and believing in anything except in Him alone. In Judaism, man is never raised to a saintly status. Christianity preaches a warped view of man that is a lie, and not corroborated by any Torah text. Judaism on the other hand exposes even our greatest prophets, as mortals who sin. Our Patriarchs viewed G-d alone as the One to worship and give any honor to. Our Patriarchs abhorred the idea that other members of mankind would worship them, and therefore commanded that they be not buried in Egypt. They were concerned that Egyptians should not deify their burial sites. Yet, Christianity does not follow Judaism’s founding prophets, and they violate the teachings of Jacob by praying to a dead man.
Dying for Others
Other Christian fundamentals also violate G-d’s very words, and G-d could not have said it any clearer, (Deut., 24:16) “There will not be killed fathers for sons (sins, nor) are sons killed for father’s (sins). Each man in his own sin will be killed.” This means that G-d does not kill someone unless they sinned. Accordingly, the concept that Jesus died by G-d’s will for mankind’s sins is a violation of the Bible. Christianity’s fundamentals oppose G-d’s words.
Christian Supporters Demanding Our Recognition
Are we to follow cowardly, Jewish and Christian groups who fear facing G-d’s own words? Are we to sidestep G-d’s truth, so we can muster political and religious allies among the Christians? G-d clearly warns against such practices. Even according to world history the Jews are the recipients of G-d’s Torah. If we do not teach G-d’s word, then His Torah will be lost. The people of the world will no longer have the opportunity to truly learn what G-d desires of them. How can we allow this to happen? How can you, those Jews who want to silence our talk of G-d’s laws, hold such a position? You directly violate G-d’s will. If G-d openly denounces idolatry as the worst crime, you directly violate G-d’s word when you wish anyone to remain silent. This false sentiment of “tolerance” must not be followed. Yes, we will never interfere in someone’s freedom. But as those commanded to uphold G-d’s Bible, we must never conceal G-d’s words for any consideration. We are tolerant of people’s actions provided they do not harm us, but we are intolerant of ignorance, the spread of false ideas, and the spread of idolatry. We must be concerned to teach the truth and make it available though our actions and our teachings – for Jew and Gentile alike.
One Christian wrote in with disdain for our position. She complained how we could disagree with Christian theology, while so many Christians support Israel. She asked to be removed from our email list, and we complied. But such a view is nonsense. She suggests if a group does a good for another, then the recipient must lie to show thanks. Since Christians support Israel, am I to lie and say I don’t think they violate G-d’s word, when in fact I do? Aren’t I doing a greater good by putting feelings aside, and advising them about their error? And let’s be truthful, she certainly does not agree with Judaism, as she certainly feels I will burn in hell for rejecting Jesus. By her withholding her feelings from me, in her framework, she keeps the “good” from me. She cares less that I will burn in hell according to Christian theology, as she does not try to teach me. Isn’t she the one who is doing the harm to me, and not vice versa? A true friend will risk the friendship if he feels the other needs counseling. Even though he will hurt the other, he will tell him his error, because he loves him. That is a true love.
Therefore, we do not ‘take the bribe’ and remain silent. Our goal is to teach our Jewish children what G-d’s Torah says. Our obligation is also to make the Torah available to all others, so we are not allowed to conceal it by lying that we “tolerate” Christianity. Yes, we tolerate practitioners, this is an American right, but we do not tolerate your principles. They are idolatrous and violate G-d’s word.
Why isn’t Freedom of Religion a Two-Way Street?
Why don’t Christians denounce those Christian missionary groups if they love Jews so much? I’ve never heard one Christian leader ever do so. Where is Christianity protecting our rights to practice Judaism? Why don’t Christians speak out against missionary groups telling them to cease from converting Jewish children? Where is Christianity’s support of American Jews’ “freedom of religion”? You don’t see any Jews out to proselytize Christians. Although we denounce Christian theology, we don’t interfere with your right to freedom of religion. We adhere to freedom of speech, and do not violate or cross that line. I would like to see a courageous Christian defend our rights of freedom of religion, and denounce all Christian missionary activity to convert Jews.
Conditional Love of Judaism
One Christian writer prayed for my conversion. I think this displays a desire of many Christians that Jews ultimately convert. There is no denying the Christian belief that those who do not believe in Jesus will burn in hell. If this is the case, how can any Christian truly accept Judaism? Again, honesty is called for, if both Jew and Christian will talk honestly about their beliefs and arrive at which is true. But I fear the more powerful emotion of maintaining friendships (for ulterior motives) will win out. Neither party cares enough for the other to openly discuss with the sincere and genuine objectivity, what G-d’s true will is for mankind. Only a truly concerned minister, preacher, nun, father, pope, or rabbi will end the silence, and caringly converse with other religious leaders. And consider that; wouldn’t such a religious discussion, where truth reigned supreme, yield the most precious outcome? I honestly hope the opening has been made with this article. I hope that Jews and Christians can end that silence, and discuss, not what we did to each other, but what the differences are between the two religions, and arrive at a conclusion as to which one is G-d’s word. Neither party wins here by remaining silent, and neither party “wins”, when both finally decide what G-d’s word is. Meaning, it cannot be about “winning”, but about an objective search for truth, regardless if that truth demands you abandon your religion.
We are both on equal footing in G-d’s eyes, as human beings obligated to follow G-d’s words. Fear of being “wrong”, and a desire to be “right” must not enter the picture. The “person” is not the issue, but the “principles”. If both parties sit down to debate religion, with the agenda of trying to prove their side, then such a meeting is useless.
Pro Religious Teaching
One writer commented as follows: “Although I have read many things addressing this issue, this is the first to clearly address the flaws in our education. It is indeed imperative that we educate Jews – especially our children about the flaws, the negatives of other religions, and not only extol the positives of ours. Even in a panel I attended for Jewish professional educators directed by Jews for Judaism, this challenge was rejected! I truly felt alone in my conviction that our children as well as we ourselves must be informed clearly about the flaws in the rationality of other religions.”
Judaism’s bottom line is that G-d desires each man and woman to use their G-d-given free will to make their choices. This applies to every member of mankind. Unlike other religions, Judaism does not ascribe to, or believe in proselytizing others, or using physical force to make a person do something or live a certain lifestyle. Man’s actions must stem from his own choices to earn reward, or deserve punishment. Therefore, we will never interfere with how anyone else desires to live, be you a Jew, a Christian, or any other religion. We will only interfere for our self-defense, when you endanger our freedom or our lives. But here in America, our freedom of religion is cherished, and we support such a haven for free, religious expression. However since part of “free, religious expression” allows the institution of Christian proselytizers to flourish, we must protect our own with our American right of free speech. We will teach our children and students without compromising our tone, lest we mislead them that we are not passionate. We will not compromise our content, for fear that a Christian or “politically correct” Jew will have their feathers ruffled. But we will speak the truth, citing G-d’s Torah as our source. In doing so, we will make it clear what Judaism believes as true. By doing so, our Christian brothers and sisters will no longer be mislead by Jews with ulterior motives, who hide their true tenets from those Christians out of ulterior motives. But they will see what exactly G-d’s Torah says and means, all based on G-d’s original recipients, the Rabbis and Sages.
Moving Forward – Courageous Honesty
Let honesty have her day, and allow the curtains of “agenda” to be shed: Christians desire Judaism no more than Jews desire to live Christian. This charade of mutual support for multiple religions is dishonest. A Christian’s very selection of Jesus and Christianity over Judaism proves this, as so does a Jew’s denial of Jesus. A Jew does not shy from any question – rationale and proof is at the core of Judaism. No blind faith here. So I invite our true Christian friends, not to hold your tongue, and I urge our Jewish friends, not to conceal Judaism from the Christians. Engage in honest, unbridled religious discussion. Both of you agree that both Judaism and Christianity cannot be simultaneously “G-d’s Chosen religion.” Reason will dictate which are G-d’s proven words, and which makes sense. Don’t fear a conclusive proof. One must be wrong. I praise the person who can yield his cherished beliefs, to the proven truth.
To our Jewish and non-Jewish readers I ask, “Are you adhering to a religion simply because you raised in it?” If so, you are both in error. G-d gave you each a mind to arrive at your beliefs based on reason. You must stop parroting and realize that “being raised in a religion” is in no argument for the truth of that religion. Nor do you possess any merit by acting in such a fashion. The only way to arrive at a conviction that your religion is truth is by using your own mind. So do so. Inquire. Your first realization is that Judaism and Christianity cannot both be G-d’s choice. Admit that one is wrong. Now, how do you arrive at this knowledge of which is wrong? The answer is simple; follow reason to prove which one is right. Look for historical proof of G-d giving a system to mankind, a proof that is irrefutable. Then, examine G-d’s words with honesty, and be objective, do not let your upbringing and emotional tendencies blur what you might see as true. Then inquire of those who safeguarded G-d’s words, deriving from them alone G-d’s laws and intent.
I will give you an analogy: Henry Ford created the first “Ford Automobile”. It is absurd to say that before Henry Ford was alive, there existed a “Ford”. This is plain and simple. History conclusively denies this claim. It is similarly absurd if even after Ford’s first auto, someone claim he possessed the “authentic” Ford. Such a claim would be laughed at. How could a copier tell the originator, “I possess the authentic”! It would be as if a son told his father, “I’m really the father.”
By definition, the original was always the first. Similarly, we arrive at the conclusive evidence – even accepted by Christians – that G-d in fact gave the Jews a Bible, the Torah, on Mount Sinai. The Jews never disputed the understanding of G-d’s words. This Torah was to last forever – unchanged. Only centuries later, Christians who were not the inheritors of the Torah, who lacked the essential Torah derivation principles for unlocking G-d’s profound truths, got their hands on a copy. They in turn approached the Jews and attempted to teach us how to learn the book that we gave them, which we have studied for thousands of years! No one tells Ford “I reinvented the authentic Ford”. So too, no one tells the Jews “We have the correct understanding of the Bible”. Then, to make the crime greater, the Christians added to the Torah, violating G-d’s command not to do so. What compounds such a crime further is the lack of knowledge possessed by Christians who would make this claim. They have not mastered Talmudic thought, nor studied the volumes of Talmud and Rabbis writings, in decades of diligent study under Talmudic Sages, the only possessors of G-d’s Oral Law. Such a lack of Talmudic study officially locks out anyone from attaining any semblance of Torah authority. Yet, they suddenly feel more authoritative than the Jews, those from who they received this Torah! It is absurd and the height of arrogance to tell the Jews, the original recipients of G-d’s Bible, that we have it all wrong. Tell the world that you just created the authentic Ford. See how the world responds.
But let G-d’s Bible speak for itself: “When you inquire of the first days that were before you, from the day that G-d created man on the Earth, from one end of the heavens to the other, was there a thing as great as this? Or was anything like it ever heard? That a nation heard G-d’s voice speaking from amidst flames, as you have heard…and lived? Or had G-d miraculously revealed Himself, when He selected one nation from others, with signs and wonders and with war and with a strong hand and an outstretched arm and with awesome wonders, as all G-d had done for you in Egypt in front of your eyes?” (Deut., 4:32-34)
Moses reminds the people of G-d’s miracles performed forty years earlier. Moses could not have made them recall, that which never happened. The fact that the Jews followed Moses displays the truth of what Moses recalled. That’s number one. Number two, and the primary focus, is that Moses reminds them that G-d never did such miracles as He did in Egypt, nor did He ever select one nation from others where mankind heard G-d speaking from a fiery mountain, as He did with the Jews on Sinai. Moses impresses upon the Jews that G-d’s selection of the Jews from all other nations is undeniable. Moses teaches that G-d’s selection is quite clear – He desires the Jews.
I ask you as you finish reading, to consider the words of the Bible quoted herein. If you have a response, let us hear it. If you don’t, then let G-d’s words direct your actions.
Daily Minyan 
An excellent article that cannot be argued with. Once I was a Christian, however, my ‘experience’ of truth came from the Hebrew Scriptures.. The Christian Scriptures sowed seeds of confusion and mental conflict. Now I believe Christianity is the greatest deception ever. Unfortunately, I am now confused as to where I can find fellowship with like minded people.
“Unfortunately, I am now confused as to where I can find fellowship with like minded people.”
Peter, welcome. No doubt you can meet like-minded people online, and perhaps some of them are in your geographic area. However, I wouldn’t expect to find anything like a fellowship or a group of a significant size. Many former Christians found fellowship among Torah-observant Jews, without undergoing conversion.
Hi Peter, I was in the same situation. Synagogues will definitively welcome you. I tried conservative and orthodox. Honestly, the orthodox was more friendly and joyful. You might has some doubts about the talmud as well. This topic is still confusing for me and the Jewish understanding of the Talmul is not as the same level than the Tanakh. But in anyway you are not obliged to study it. Nehemiah Gordon once suggested me a group that follow only the tanakh for their Sabbath meeting. You may ask him, and he would be happy to help you if he knows anything. How did you come to the conclusion the christianity was not the true religion Peter? For me, it was the trinity.
Gene, what you say is so true. We should all look and try to see and examine if what we believe is true. Everybody think that they have the true religion, but only examining one side of the “truth” will not allow you to see if what you believe is true. That’s what I like about Judaism, there is always this questioning for you to make you think and see and test. I also love the fact that you may have different opinions. When I was still a Christian, that always bother me, all those fraction and arguments about rapture, Pre millennialism, end-time, legalism and I felt nobody would agree with others.
Hi Gene,
I finally bought and am reading Mark Kinzer’s latest book, Searching her Own Mystery; Nostra Aetate, the Jewish People, and the Identity of the Church. I skipped to Appendix 4, “Finding our Way throught Nicaea: The Deity of Jesus, Bilateral Ecclesiology, and the Redemptive Encounter with the Living God.” I think it’s worth reading and recommend it to you.
Hi Julian… I’ve read plenty of materials by Kinzer in my Jesus-worshiping days, so I don’t think I’ll be spending any more time reading his stuff. Although it’s fun seeing him reunite Protestant messianics with the Catholics (Kinzer’s mother church).
As far as I know, this is the first time Kinzer has tackled the question of Jesus’ divinity in great detail. Since that is one of your main objections to Messianic Judaism, I think you should familiarize yourself with it.
Julian… trust me when I tell you that I am MORE than familiar with how Christianity in all of its flavors (including “Messianic Judaism”) tackles “divinity” of Jesus. Neither am I a stranger to Kinzer’s own take on it. However, if you think that you learned something new from Kinzer, you can use it to prove me wrong on this very blog:)
In what other places has Kinzer discussed in detail the question of Jesus’ divinity?
Julian, if you feel that you have learned something new from Kinzer’s book about Jesus’ being “divine” and why worship due to the G-d of the Torah alone can also be given to man Jesus, you are free to share.
Julian, since I left Mesianic Judaism / Christianity, people gave and passed me several books, the five volume of Dr Brown, The Trinity (It’s a big volume with a menorah on it), Rabbi Akiva’s Messiah and many more. Honestly, I read part of the 5 volumes of Dr Brown and decided to read my bible instead. I understand Gene, having read several book on each side of the debate, it’s hard to read all those books, especially when most of it will be from a xtian’s perspective. I think most of us in this webstite were, some point in our lives dedicated christian. I myself preached the D’var torah at my messianic congregation. I only say that because I want to share that I and most of us hear are familiar with the christian argument. Nevertheless, after further studies on the Trinity, I had to realize that Jesus could not be G-d. It would be better for the sake of that website anyway if you would like to give your reason why you think he is G-d / the messiah. Like that, it will keep the discussion active. If not, it’s kind of boring if everybody agrees.
Cheers.
My mistake. Kinzer’s article was first published way back in 2010 in Kesher. It’s online here: http://www.kesherjournal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135:finding-our-way-through-nicaea-the-deity-of-yeshua-bilateral-ecclesiology-and-redemptive-encounter-with-the-living-god-&catid=88888897:issue-24&Itemid=430
Julian, hello and welcome to the blog. If I may take the time to illustrate (as respectfully as I can) why Christology and a halachically vibrant Judaism cannot really mix or agree, despite everyone’s best intentions. In the NT, and in Church commentaries on scripture, Jesus is the kyrios, the “image” of the invisible G-d, the logos. Traditional Christian commentary posits that HASHEM has appeared to humans in numerous theophanies in the Torah. The “Angel of the lord,” is often taken by Christian commentators as a synonym for the preincarnate word/wisdom of the father, whether in the Exodus or elsewhere. It is argued that this being became Jesus. The Captain of the lord’s host in Joshua chapter 5 is taken in traditional orthodox Christian commentares as being the pre incarnate word.
So, the question arises, why is the idea of worshiping Jesus as in some sense “one with G-d” considered idolatrous by Judaism? The answer can be easily found in a careful reading of Deuteronomy 4.
9 Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them fade from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them. 10 Remember the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when he said to me, “Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children.” 11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. YOU HEARD THE SOUND OF WORDS but saw NO FORM; there was ONLY A VOICE. 13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets. 14 And the Lord directed me at that time to teach you the decrees and laws you are to follow in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.
Idolatry Forbidden
15 YOU SAW NO FORM OF ANY KIND the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of ANY SHAPE, whether formed LIKE A MAN or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—ALL THE HEAVENLY HOST—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
Deuteronomy 4:19 explicitly commands Israel not to worship the “WHOLE HOST” literally the Seva (cf. to Adonai sevaot,) God of hosts, So, the host of HASHEM includes the Cherubim, the Angels of the Merkabah (the Chariot/throne,) but most importantly, THE CAPTAIN OF THE LORD’s host. The New Testament advocates that people undertake a type of service and adoration that Israel is explicitly commanded not to engage in.
No agent of G-d, or even a miraculous manifestation of his own power is ever supposed to be prayed to, or worshipped by Israel. Remember when G-d commanded Moses to build the serpent of brass? G-d placed his own miraculous spirit on this item, (somewhat like he did with the staff of Aaron) and G-d even had Israel gaze on it to be healed, but a line was definitely crossed when Israel worshipped it. (See 2 kings 18:4 for verification that this item was destroyed due to idolatrous veneration.) Maybe this is why G-d hid the body of Moses?
The early Torah observant Jewish followers of Jesus, (called the Ebionites, from the Hebrew word evyonim for poor) according to early Church fathers and the Ebionites own gospel fragments, believed in an adoptionist Christology. They taught that The Holy Spirit, (called the spirit of Christ by them) in their gospel, entered Jesus at his baptism, and that he was later confirmed as “son of G-d” by his ressurection. They viewed him as fully human with two human parents. The “Christ spirit” entered him and was deemed by them to be “like one of the Archangels.” (Likely sourced from these traditions: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10736-metatron)
These ideas of this son of G-d, Angel of the presence, lay at the root of Philos logos doctrine that was later used by the author of John and elaborated upon in his gospel. The point is, even if you could posit a logos or tzelem, Israel is forbidden by Deuteronomy 4:19 to worship it, either by itself, in concert with G-d, or associated with a form.
I hope that clarifies things a bit.
Hi CR,
Before I reply, I’m curious if you read Kinzer’s article that I linked to.
Yes
Paul thus expands the Shema to include Yeshua within a differentiated but singular deity.
We have here a problem from the get go Julian because the question is not a theological one, but a halachic issue. When the creeds were formulated, they were written by gentile Christiahs (with their own worldviews and assumptions,) and as the article states, “were written to refute common philosophical presuppositions of the day.” In Judaism, Halacha comes first, philosophy second. It doesn’t enter into the Jewish religion (from the standpoint of observance,) to ask “what Is the nature of G-d?” That already is a throughly Greek question that presupposes a Hellenic frame of reference.
Hi CR,
Yes, Kinzer’s point is that the Nicaean creed was written in opposition to the Hellenic frame of reference – which saw God as someone too transcendent to be able to interact directly with his creation – as opposed to the Biblical frame of reference – which saw God as someone who could interact directly with his creation.
Drawing upon second Temple Jewish traditions, which see the creation of the world as occurring through the mediation of a hypostatic Wisdom or spoken Word, Paul presents “God” as the one “from whom are all things,” and the “Lord” as the one “through whom are all things.”
These “second temple traditions,” referred to, in most cases, are not included in the canon of scripture precisely because they contradict the plain meaning of certain chapters or legal principles from the Torah like Deuteronomy 4. Just because Philo sought to reconcile Torah with Hellenic thought, doesn’t make his outcome or thought Torah. It’s also important to know that even if such ideas were generally accepted by Jews it would only be on the level of midrash and aggada, not legally binding to follow. Many of the traditions found in texts like 1 Enoch are a certain group’s midrash (exposition and interpretations ) of events from the Torah, that express their personal opinions based on wisdom of the day, but their thoughts are couched In the metaphors and themes of a Torah story.
The biblical view doesn’t ask those kind of questions, only philosophy, and that’s not a Torah concern. Whether G-d can directly interact or not, is independent of what his will is for humans in the question of worship. According to the Sinai revelation, Israel was told that they saw no form, and were prohibited to serve or worship the “whole host of heaven.” This eliminates this question of nature and interaction. See what I’m saying?
The Creed draws two conclusions from its fundamental proposition that the son is “begotten of his Father before all worlds.” These two conclusions are conveyed in the phrases, “Light from (ek) Light, true God from (ek) true God.”15 First of all, the son draws his being from (ek) the Father.
Julian, the proposition that the Church draws from (on the issue of eternal begetting) rests on fundamentally Greek false assumptions that scripture exists and is written for the purpose of dealing with an ontological question of G-d’s existence and nature. Its a flawed method because the book doesn’t exist to answer those type of questions, it’s a legal text. For example, If you notice, the Torah never actually seeks to prove that Hashem exists in Genesis, it just presents his existence as Axiomatic. It never says, “here is how we know G-d exists, and this is his ontological nature.” In fact, G-d’s names in scripture indicate his will and his actions, not his essence.
All the theological questioning and speculations (about Angels, the chariot, the nature of G-d, theodicy, etc.) were questions asked by people long after the close of the biblical canon. They are not questions that the Books of Moses themselves are really concerned with. The lifeblood of Jewish religious life is in observation of G-d’s mitzvot, not in questions of G-d’s ontology. What I’m saying is, the issue with Christan theology is one of clear halachic conflict.
Having just reread Kinzer’s paper which Julian linked above (which I read long ago, when I was still a Jesus-worshiper), it strikes me how grotesque and utterly contrived his whole argument in defense of Jesus’ “divinity” is. Trying to put lipstick on a pig sums it up nicely.
Kinzer is for ecumenicalism! Seriously, catholic: statues worshipper, Mary worshipper, saints worshipper, dead bone worshipper (literally) on top of Jesus! Really, I am glad I have not read his article!
I think the premise of the article should make clear:
[a] The Faith of Judaism is a religion created by rabbis.
[b] The Faith of the Mashiachim, who believe in the deity of L-rd Yeshua, is based on Moses and all the prophets.
[c] Most adherents to Judaism really have no inkling what the Mashiachim believe.
[d] Most “true” Christians really have no inkling what Judaism is about.
_________________________________
There certainly are rabbis who are decent folk with something to teach us as human beings — it’s just that if someone is trying to find ultimate Truth, I myself could’t find it in Judaism despite all rabbinical teaching to the contrary. Why? Because the rabbinical teaching only represents a mish mash [Isaiah 28:9-13]– whereas the Mashiachim find Elohim’s redemptive beauty woven like a persian tapestry throughout the Tanakh.
In sum,
If one finds Truth in Judaism– fine.
If one finds Truth in L-rd Yeshua– fine as well.
_________________________________
Kavi, that’s a ridiculous list you made there.
“The Faith of the Mashiachim, who believe in the deity of L-rd Yeshua, is based on Moses and all the prophets.”
Sure, let’s all ignore the fact that 1) Christianity and its theology is based primarily on the teachings of Paul, 2) that most of the teachings (apart from idolatrous ones, most likely added much later) attributed to Jesus by the Church scribes who penned the “New Testament” differed little from those of Pharisees and 3) that the NT is riddled with false and failed “prophecies” made by Jesus regarding his own “second coming” and that Biblical prophecies (and non-prophetic texts misused as “prophecies”) were ripped completely out of context, mistranslated and shamelessly misquoted by the Church scribes who created Christianity’s so called “scriptures”.
Gene, you forgot to mention the most glaring error Kavi made with that statement.
“The Faith of the Mashiachim, who believe in the deity of L-rd Yeshua, is based on Moses and all the prophets.”
Kavi, I will convert to your “mashiachim” religion if you can show me anywhere in the Tanach where Israel is commanded to acknowledge “yeshua” as a deity. Can you show me where Moses tells us to acknowledge “yeshua” as a deity? Can you show me in the prophets where it tells us to acknowledge “yeshua” as a diety?
No?
That’s what I thought…
So perhaps it is your “mashiachim” religion that was a new invention, contrary to the will of Hashem according to His Tanach…
It’s clear to everyone else that this is the case. Hashem NEVER tells us to acknowledge “yeshua” as a deity in the Tanach anywhere!
Thank you for showing us the falsehood of your “mashiachim” religion. Your jesus is not a deity according to the Tanach.
Shalom
I will also convert if you show me ONE prophecy that Jesus fulfilled and only him could fulfil (reasonably speaking), as it is written “And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.”
There must be at least one! If not, it means that it is vain to worship Jesus.
Yehuda, I found it, it’s psalm 151:
Blessed is the one
who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take
or sit in the company of mockers,
but whose delight is in beleiving in Yeshua,
and who meditates on Yeshua day and night.
That person is like a tree planted by a church,
which yields new converts in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.
Not so those who do not bow down Jesus as god and savior! <—- here it is!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore those who do not believe in Yeshua will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the Lord watches over those of "the way",
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
Remi… I found one:
This is surely about Jesus. Kavi will be mailing you your “Maschiachim” conversion papers shortly.
I got a black STAR in my Bible, man, it is a prophecy about Jesus.
Well, we do at least have some agreement about my original post.
Of course, The main disagreement centers around the deity of Yeshua– which is a reasonable and very fair disagreement.
___________________________________
If I you will allow me to make a similitude:
[*] It’s like two sides of a coin that center around the interpretation of Genesis 1
“Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness”
— The one side of the coin is where the rabbis made Judaism to be “plurality in majesty”
— The other side is the Mashiachim who hold to “unified plurality”
__________________________________
Once one believes in “plurality in majesty”, the path leads towards Judaism or some other related “apostate” faith [e.g., karaites, sabbateans, dönmeh, etc]
Once one believes in “unified plurality”, the path leads towards “The Way” or some other related “apostate” faith [e.g., roman catholicism, mormonism, etc]
Does not this comparison of Faiths sound logical regardless of which side you are on?
_________________________________
I would say that it is faire. Let’s see if you are on a true “way” now, as we all agree that the Tanakh is the Word of G-d, then if your way is the true and only way, it should be clear in the Tanakh. The only thing I see, for myself, in your way is Warning Signs saying “DO NOT ENTER”, beware of Idolatry, and “DO NOT WORSHIP A MAN” signs throughout the Torah and the Prophets. Now if I am wrong, please show it to me, but let’s not built a whole theology based on one word, that would be foolishness.
“And one shall say unto him, what are these wounds in your hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. (Zechariah 13:6)”
Sorry Gene, I’m afraid even this one doesn’t qualify. The Hebrew is “between your hands”, referring to laceration of the chest that false prophets of Israel inflicted upon themselves. (see 1 Kings 18). Oh wait! Maybe it DOES refer to Jesus….
A unified plurality where the “us” are considered worthy of worship is in contradiction to Deuteronomy 4:19 where G-d tells Israel not to worship the “whole host,” ie G-d’s entourage, ie this “us.” Jews are explicitly commanded to worship the father only.
Kavi,
CR’s comment hits the nail on the head. It’s really as simple as that. All the rest is mental mas******.
The fact is, you don’t really know the exact meaning of “us” in Gen. 1:26 and you can’t prove the point you want to make — it’s conjecture, at best.
The argument that God was speaking to His court of angels, who appear here and there in scripture in human form, is at least as valid an argument as any other — if not more so. (“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? …when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7)
And, just for the sake of argument, what if it’s meaning is an expression of a duality of fullness? So what? God has the power to become a rock, right? But did He? Would He? Potential means nothing.
You said, “It’s like two sides of a coin that center around the interpretation of Genesis 1”
And how does one interpret meaning correctly in Tanakh? As you also stated in a previous thread regarding the p’shat of a thing (and according to your rule number [**] ), one must understand a verse within it’s context.
The context of Genesis is the Torah, and as CR (and all of us have) pointed out, within the overwhelming context of Torah, God commanded that we not worship anything that has any physical form. That would include Jesus the man. Unlike the meaning of Gen 1:26, this much is crystal clear. You cannot possibly connect Gen 1:26 with the supposed deity of Jesus. Well, you and the church can, but it’s just way off the mark (aka “sin”).
As I told you in the beginning, you’re straining gnats but swallowing the camel (of idolatry). You’re doing exactly what the NT scriptures taught you to do. You were told how to see the Tanakh, you were told how to think and what to believe and you’re going along for the ride. The truth is that the NT is blinding your ability to understand Tanakh. Oh, you think you do, but you do not.
But you think we are the ones who are blind (your sacred text told you that too, right?). But the reality is the opposite — quite the opposite indeed. When are you going to give up and recognize the truth, Kavi? You have posed dozens and dozens of points and arguments here, and not one of them has proved correct. You don’t listen to what anyone says, you ignore the evidence put right under your nose, and you keep going around and around in your OCD circles, getting absolutely nowhere.
It’s not that we’re stubborn and blind, it’s that we see. Your scriptures and your beliefs are false. Your house is but a house of cards, without the foundation you so desperately need.
Jim,
CR’s reference is incorrect– it only speaks of stars, planets, comets, etc.
[**] Deuteronomy 4:19
“And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.”
BTW– Did you read the Kinzer article that Julian referenced? It describes how saadia Gaon radically departed from earlier rabbinic teaching where, to counter the Karaites, “He reinterpreted rabbinic thought in a way that eliminated all anthropomorphism, even from the biblical theophanies”?
___________________________
[**[ Genesis 1
“Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness”
[**] Isaiah 42:8
“I am the Lord, that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to the graven images.”
With these two witnesses, “Us” can only mean the Ancient of Days, the Son of Man, and the Ruach HaKodesh.
And, if you wish to say that the Ancient of Days has “no form”, then whose “image” is mankind made from?
— Ancient of Days – “no form”
— Ruach HaKodesh – a “form” likened to that of the fluttering of a dove
— ?Unnamed One? – must have a “form” likened to mankind
To the Mashiachim, Elohim must have some form liken unto mankind– there is no other way than to say the Son of Man, L-rd Yeshua, must be the One who has that “form”.
___________________________
Yehuda Yisrael wrote
July 10, 2015 11:38 am
Ok Kavi. Good answer. So we are in agreement that when G-d spoke to Israel at Horeb, they saw no form. Correct?
___________________________
Yehuda,
I think the agreement would be no one can make an absolute conclusion one way or the other.
When G-d spoke “face to face” to the Israelites from Mt. Horeb, it only means that there was no intermediary between them.
G-d spoke to them from the cloud, but that does mean He has “no form”– only that the Israelites saw no form.
___________________________
At the risk of duplication, since we are continuing a thread started elsewhere on Gene’s site, I think would be best to repeat something:
[**] Genesis 1
“Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness”
[**] Isaiah 42:8
“I am the Lord, that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to the graven images.”
With these two witnesses, “Us” can only mean the Ancient of Days, the Son of Man, and the Ruach HaKodesh.
If someone wants to say that the Ancient of Days has “no form”, then whose “image” is mankind made from?
— Ancient of Days – “no form”
— Ruach HaKodesh – a “form” likened to that of the fluttering of a dove
— ?Unnamed One? – must have a “form” likened to mankind
To the Mashiachim, Elohim must have some form liken unto mankind– there is no other way than to say the Son of Man, L-rd Yeshua, must be the One who has that “form”.
____________________________
Kavi
“When G-d spoke “face to face” to the Israelites from Mt. Horeb, it only means that there was no intermediary between them.”
Isn’t Jesus an intermediary?
For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, (NET Bible)
He spoke to them face to face, no intermediary, why then you say we need an intermediary, or mediator between god and himself?
“I think the agreement would be no one can make an absolute conclusion one way or the other.”
Why can’t we make that conclusion, Kavi?
“He spoke to them face to face, no intermediary, why then you say we need an intermediary, or mediator between god and himself?”
Ah oh…. I would guess then that Moses was more saintly and far more worthy than all of the “washed by Jesus’ blood” Christians put together, since they all need Jesus and even Jesus himself, much less G-d, doesn’t want to talk to the “justified and made sinless” Christians face-to-face (even though two thousand years he had no problem talking even to hardened sinners).
Kavi, my question to you was this:
Did the Israelites see a “form of G-d: at Horeb.
Yes or no?
As you will all notice, Kavi made a straw man argument and tried to answer a question I didn’t ask. I didnt ask whether or not G’d theoretically could “have a form.” Rather, I asked whether or not the Israelis “saw a form of G-d at Horeb.”
Lets see how intellectually honest Kavi is…
Hi Yedhuda, because Kavi does not want to answer, Paul can answer. “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.” So that means the father is invisible but the son as an image. So god the has father, no body, go the son has a body.
It was not that hard to answer according to what Paul said.
Man I did not answer the question either :)
No form— Only God the father was there, that means Jesus is not part of G-d
A from — G-d lied on Deuteronomy 4.
Plain and simple, which you pick Kavi?
I should have put god in lower case aka Triune god, because G-d does not lie.
Kavi, let’s be honest, there are bible veres that looks like it could refer to Jesus. The new testament writer did it on purpose for you to believe in Jesus. Nobody deny that. Those bible verse could refer to Jesus, but could have also valid other explanation. Nevertheless, there are clear, undeniable teaching that forbids Jewish people to worship Jesus. Would you listen to it with honest heart, G-d is speakin. Do not listen to Jesus, who say “blessed are those who believe without seeing”. Or John that say “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God”. Then he goes on to say you are an antichrist if you deny him, and it would be better to throw yourself in the ocean and die before you do that. It’s ok to test the spirit, but not to test Jesus? Test him according to Deuteronomy 4 and Exodus 20:1. I know, I was there too, I cannot deny Jesus because he is the only atonement. But, that is not true, he never died on an altar, why should you trust in a sacrifice that was not mandated by G-d? Ezekiel 18 say he will pardon your sin (without sacrifice) if you turn from your sin. Read the psalm, (Psalm 25 and 30) when the psalmist asked G-d to forgive their sin,Jesus was not there. Jesus is not in the book of Psalm, he is not there. Matthew twisted so many passages, that only that could make any honest person doubt that the new testament was inspired. (but most don’t because they do not want to be thrown in hell) Read all those so call prophecies accomplished by Jesus in the book of Matthew. Then look them up in the Tanakh in context. Even Macarthur say they are Types and Shadow, because, honestly, they don’t add up to his claims! Another thing, maybe your family and friends are all believers of the way, and honestly that’s a big pressure as well, but G-d is better than that. I had to jump one day, could not lift up my hands and dance praise to Jesus any more!
Yehuda and Remi,
Let’s take a look:
[**] Deuteronomy 4:11-12
“And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness.
The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice.”
________________________
The Israelites could “see no form” because of the darkness of the clouds– that is, G-d hid Himself from them so that they could only hear His voice.
Therefore I am not sure anyone can absolutely conclude anything from this particular passage whether G-d has a form or not.
However, Genesis 1 definitely says Elohim has an image–
“Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness”
________________________
Seriously? Jesus hiding behind the clouds and laughing at the Israelites that he has not form? Really! You are ready to say non-sense to defend your idolatry?
G-d made us in his likeness, that means he put some of his attributes in us, like love, a desire to create, etc. It does not mean that he has a body, that fills all the earth and heaven!
And if G-d wanted to make it extra clear not to worship any man that proclaimed to be god, what else should he have said for you to believe it?
Kavi,
The “New Testament” is a fraud — a house of cards said to be laid on the foundation of the Hebrew Bible, but that is a hoax. The NT is full of inconsistencies, contradictions, misquotations, mistranslations, misunderstandings, misinformed opinions and outright lies.
There is no trinity, there is no deity of Jesus, no atonement he provided and there is no new covenant. If a gentile wishes to believe in it, it is still idolatry but not as bad as for a Jew to believe it. For a Jew, it is far worse – it is a sin that results in his or her being cut off from the Children of Israel along with their generations to come. And anyone who leads a Jew astray will bear God’s punishment.
____________
THIS is what God instructed His children regarding Who to worship and who NOT to worship:
===>We are not to worship any god whom our fathers in the desert did not know. <===
Was Jesus there? Get this Kavi, and understand well: It doesn’t matter!
The operative – as you will see below — is whether or not the generation who stood at the Jordan, as well as their fathers who were brought out of Egypt and stood at Sinai, knew him. The litmus test was the subjective perception of the Israelites. That’s how we know who to worship!
______________
How many times does God have to repeat Himself for his point to be understood? Five times? Read and perceive, Kavi. I will even include your favorite bullet points:
[**] Deut 11:28 – “and the curse, if you will not heed the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn away from the way I command you this day, to follow other gods which you did not know.”
[**] Deut 32:17 – “They sacrificed to demons, which have no power, deities they did not know, new things that only recently came, which your forefathers did not fear.”
[**] Deut 13:14 – “”Unfaithful men have gone forth from among you and have led the inhabitants of their city astray, saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods, which you have not known.’ ”
[**] Deut 28:64 – “And the Lord will scatter you among all the nations, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you will serve other deities unknown to you or your forefathers…”
——————
Did those two generations know Jesus? Did they recognize him? Did they see Jesus bringing them out from Egypt? Well it is beyond question — except for only the most delusional (who should seek psychiatric treatment for hallucinations) — that our fathers in the desert DID NOT KNOW Jesus.
God loves His Jewish children, right? You’re a dispensationalist, so you have to agree. So why would Hashem not tell us? Why – right at the time and place when He made it crystal clear who He was and who He was not (especially if his son Jesus was right there!) – would he not tell us, “Oh, by the way, one day I’m going to send my son to save your souls. He’s standing right here, at my right hand. So when he comes make sure you accept and worship him, okay?” No. He didn’t. Think it just slipped His mind?
Instead, He laid down the law: Worship only ME, who brought you out of Egypt and who you have seen and experienced — and NO OTHER.
WE are the world’s witness to God — as HE willed it. WE are here making it clear who HE is and who he is not.
——————
And what happens when a Jew is presented with other gods, such as your Jesus? Read and understand:
Deut 13:2 – “If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,” you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deut 13:6-9 – “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him.”
Hm. Now THAT doesn’t sound like a command to worship him, does it!
———————-
There is no Jesus the man-god. You and your NT teach idolatry.
There is only The One, who revealed Himself to His witness, the Children of Israel:
Deut 4:35 – “You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.“
CR’s reference is incorrect– it only speaks of stars, planets, comets, etc.
IT IS NOT INCORRECT KAVI! IT SAYS STARS, PLANETS,……………….AND!!!!!!……..THE “WHOLE……..HOST”………OF HEAVEN!!!!!
G-d is called Adonai Seba’ot (G-d of hosts.) who is G-d the G-d of? Men, angels,
EVERYTHING!
The word for host used is Seba the same word as in the title Adonai Sebaot
סְבָא
Let’s add Psalm 44:
All this came upon us,
though we had not forgotten you; (and worship other gods like Jesus)
we had not been false to your covenant. (Sinai)
18 Our hearts had not turned back;
our feet had not strayed from your path.
19 But you crushed us and made us a haunt for jackals;
you covered us over with deep darkness.
20 If we had forgotten the name of our God
or spread out our hands to a foreign god,
21 would not God have discovered it,
since he knows the secrets of the heart?
22 Yet for your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.
Israel has been persecuted by followers of Jesus since 2000 years and here it say it is for the sake of G-d, not because they were blinded by the truth. It never was because the Jews forsake G-d that all that happened to them, it is because they refused to bow to Jesus, a false god that were not know by their fathers! Plane simple. god in his foreknowledge decided to blind the jews and throw them in hell to show his wrath? No! They refuse because it is clear, unambiguous, word by word, repeated waning against what you believe! And you see it in Psalm 44, but you have inherited a lie, and you wont even open your eyes. G-d is the ROCK not Jesus!
… and Jesus was not G-d.
Like talking to a wall, isn’t it CR?
It might be a good time to turn our attention to NT scripture. That should be fun..
Remi,
The Mashiachim do not worship a man– they worship the L-rd Yeshua who only temporarily took on an outer, physical body.
After L-rd Yeshua rose from the dead, He shed that earthly body and received a body which no one on earth can fully describe [not even Paul].
So, the Mashiachim worship the eternal L-rd Yeshua who now sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven awaiting vengeance on His enemies [Psalm 110]
_________________________________
Jim,
You have presented a reasonable objection–
So, one would have to ask, “who is this G-d”?
From the words of Moses:
[] The L-RD is Echad [not a monotype being – Deut 6:4]
[] Elohim exists in unified plurality [Genesis 1 and elsewhere]:
–The “Father”, who Moses was not allowed to see
–The “Unnamed One”, who Abram ate with and Moses and the Elders did see
–The Ruach HaKodesh, who was above the waters at the dawn of creation
[] Elohim is the One who redeemed Abram by Faith [Genesis 15]
[] The “Unnamed One” is the L-RD Yeshua who Abraham met and ate with [Genesis 18]
[] The “Unnamed One” is the L-RD who Jacob saw in Heaven [Genesis 28]
My answers do not mean your objection has no merit– I am saying that Judaism will have its set of answers and the Mashiachim will have their set of answers. Both sets of answers will be dependent on whether one believes Elohim exists as “unified plurality” or “majesty in plurality”.
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Jesus rose from the dead, and flew to heaven with his body. I think it is generally accepted that a man with a glorified body, but still physical body who could eat fish, is in heaven.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-physical-body.html
As CR and Jim said “It does not matter if G-d is three, a billion or whatever else that human mind could imagine” G-d told them not to worship anything else than what Israel knew. So, you may have a set of answers already prepared to defend your lies, Israel did not Know JESUS and G-d forbade them to worship something that THEIR FATHERS HAVE NOT KNOWN! Jesus is part of THAT! !
Kavi, what should G-D have said if he wanted to make sure that everybody in Israel understand that He is no Jesus, that is has not three part and that he had no intention to incarnate Himself in a human body? What should He have said to make it obvious?
Like talking to a wall, isn’t it CR?
That’s why I don’t talk to anybody outside this blog. It only finish in stupid argument, when they do not want to open their eyes on the obvious.
“Jim,
You have presented a reasonable objection–”
No Kavi, I did not present a ‘reasonable’ objection — I presented you with ‘The’ objection. There is nowhere to go after this. I showed you God’s own commandments, made irrefutably clear — which He repeated multiple times so other thick-headed individuals might get it. (But I guess even God Himself can’t seem to get through to some people.)
.
“So, one would have to ask, “who is this G-d”?”
No Kavi, one needs ask no further questions. It doesn’t matter who God is, or about His nature, His image, His plurality or what He likes for breakfast. He provided His clear commandments to us.
.
“My answers do not mean your objection has no merit–”
Well Kavi, in fact my answers mean that your objections have no merit.
.
“I am saying that Judaism will have its set of answers and the Mashiachim will have their set of answers. Both sets of answers will be dependent on whether one believes Elohim exists as “unified plurality” or “majesty in plurality”.”
No Kavi, Judaism has the answers. There isn’t a different answer.
You’re right about that, Remi.
Shabbat shalom, all.
I have no problem talking to Christians, I was one. They believe they know, they need to learn about Judaism correctly.
Remi,
Do you mean Yeshua had a glorified body like:
— the One who ate with Abraham [Genesis 18]
— the “man” who physically wrestled with Jacob and yet Yisrael called Him “Peniel” [Genesis 32]
________________________________
Kavi, concerning your idolatrous misunderstanding of Genesis 18…
Genesis 18 says that the three individuals who Abraham encountered were “men” or “anashim” in Hebrew. (Genesis 18:3) The “man in question” is mentioned on par with the other two men.
So you ask me how I know this man is an angel? In order to come to this conclusion, we need to evaluate the totality of scripture. In Genesis 32, Jacob encounters another “man.” (Genesis 32:25.) This same “man” is referred to as an “angel” in Hosea 12:5, literally using the Hebrew word “malach.” Why is this significant you ask? Well remember the three “men” who Abraham encountered in Genesis 18:3? Two of those “men” are explicitly referred to as “angel” or “malachim” in Genesis 19:1! So if the two “men” who appeared to Abraham can be referred to as “angels” and “men” interchangeably, surely the “man” who Jacob encountered in Genesis 32:25 can also be referred to as an “angel,” just as Hosea 12:5 says! By the same token, the three “men” who appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18 are also understood to be “angels.” It doesn’t say “two men and one godman.” You’re the one who is eisegetically adding that to the text!
My interpretation is consistent with other angelic appearances found within the Tanach. Yours is completely without foundation, Kavi, You are randomly assigning the title “pre-incarnate jesus angel” to anonymous angels who aren’t even referred to in the same manner in scripture. For example, the angel “in question” in Genesis 18 is not referred to as “angel of the Lord.” Yet you and other christians wish to peddle the title “angel of the Lord” as a code word for “jesus angel.” You have given no effective way to differentiate between these supposed “jesus angels” and “just regular old angels.” Is the “the angel of the Lord” mentioned in Zechariah 3 synonymous with “the angel of the Lord” mentioned in Exodus 3? Why or why not?
Ultimately, Deuteronomy 4:9-19 thwarts any eisegetical attempt made by a christian to try and deify angels in the Tanach. Your “great jesus angel hunt” is a wild goose chase. If you want to disobey G-d’s explicit commands not to worship Him in any form, then that’s your prerogative…
And that’s a real shame…
Yehuda,
In Genesis 18, the interpretation does not look back to it’s roots in the p’shat of what the text says– for we start with identification that the L-RD came to Abraham [Genesis 18:1].
The words of “men” found in Genesis 18:2 are important because they identify the “form” the three came to Abraham [i.e., not in a dream nor a vision].
Only two are specifically identified as malachim– so the third is not.
However, in Genesis 32, your analysis appears to be correct in applying malach to the one who wrestled with Yisrael– I sincerely apologize for my mistake :(
____________________________
Friends,
Moshe ben-Chaim comments, “So how do we identify true idolatry? Of course this is where the issue gets gray . . . . . . When referring to those Jews – our Rabbis and Talmudic Sages – we learn that idolatry is clearly defined as “the belief in anything other than G-d possessing power”.
Here Mr. Chaim identifies the divergence of Faiths:
[a] The Faith of Judaism is a religion created by rabbis.
[b] The Faith of the Mashiachim, who believe in the deity of L-rd Yeshua, is based on the writings of Moses and all the prophets.
___________________________
L-rd Yeshua is not a mere man– He is worshipped because He is the One who is eternally existent in unified plurality– as Moses taught:
[] The L-RD is Echad [not a monotype being – Deut 6:4]
[] Elohim exists in unified plurality [Genesis 1 and elsewhere]:
–The “Father”, who Moses was not allowed to see
–The “Unnamed One”, who Abram ate with and Moses and the Elders did see [Exodus 24]
–The Ruach HaKodesh, who was above the waters at the dawn of creation
[] Elohim is the One who redeemed Abram by Faith [Genesis 15]
[] The “Unnamed One” is the L-RD Yeshua who Abraham met and ate with [Genesis 18]
[] The “Unnamed One” who Jacob saw in heaven [Genesis 28]
L-rd Yeshua wants mankind to know the Father– and He paid a very great price to achieve redemption of those He made to be “holy ones” through Emunah [Genesis 3; Genesis 15; Daniel 7; Zechariah 12; and Zechariah 14].
Only in context of the written Tanakh do we find the following statement by Yeshua to be relevant:
[**] Matthew 11:27-30
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For my yoke is pleasant and my burden is light.”
_____________________________
Kavi, nowhere in the Tanach does it say for us to worship your jeezer as a “god in the flesh” as you insist…Moses and the prophets never mention your jeezer as our god…So you can stop with the lie that the Moses and the prophets told us to worship jeezer. That’s simply false.
Moreover, your jesus never even claimed to be “the unnamed man” who appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18, so please stop trying to tell us that this is your jeezer. Thank you for admitting that Genesis 32 does not speak of your jeezer wrestling with Jacob. We are making progress! However, I think you still don’t quite grasp my argument as to why Genesis 18 does not speak of “G-d as a man” as you believe…
Both the “man” who wrestled with Jacob in Genesis 32 and the “men” who visited Abraham in Genesis 18 are referred to as that…Men! Yes, in Genesis 19, two of the men are referred to as angels, and as I pointed out to you, in Hosea 12, the “man” who Jacob wrestled with is also referred to as an angel. Knowing all this, it makes plausible sense to also understand the third “man” who spoke to Abraham as simply another angel! We see in Genesis 32 that there is no mention of this man being explicitly referred to as an angel, yet we see Hosea elaborating on the fact that this man in fact was an angel in Hosea 12. Likewise, we can use the same hermeneutical device that Hosea used to understand the third “man” who spoke to Abraham as simply another angel.
But of course, the crux of the argument still lies in the fact that Deuteronomy 4:9-19 explicitly states that we are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM. That includes man. This is why none of these men mentioned, including all three men in Genesis 18, cannot be “god in the flesh.” G-d does not lie. But according to your interpretation of these verses being a “pre incarnate jeezer godman,” G-d would be a liar in light of His commands to Israel in Deut 4:9-19.
Fortunately, your G-d is not a liar and your jeezer is not G-d.
Shalom
**Typo correction. This is why none of the men mentioned, including all three men in Genesis 18 can be “god in the flesh.”
Yehuda,
[**] Genesis 1
“Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness”
This is a twice repeated phrase– mankind received their form because Elohim does have a form which He imparted to mankind’s physical and spiritual identity.
[**] Deuteronomy 4
G-d spoke to them from the cloud, but that does mean He has “no form”– it only means that the Israelites “saw” no form.
_______________________
Kavi, do you like misrepresenting my arguments? Because you’re great at doing that.
For the record, I have NEVER argued that G-d theoretically HAS “no form.”
So please, stop making that strawman argument.
**My argument is that Deuteronomy 4:9-19 FORBIDS THE ISRAELITES FROM WORSHIPPING G-D IN ANY FORM!**
Lets say for arguments sake that G-d “has” a form. That wouldn’t change the fact that G-d specifically forbids Israel from worshipping ANY FORM in Deuteronomy 4:9-19. G-d doesn’t simply tell the Israelites that they saw no form. He makes it very clear that BECAUSE THEY SAW NO FORM, THE ARE NOT TO WORSHIP HIM IN ANY FORM. Deuteronomy 4:15-19 makes this abundantly clear. And please, don’t try and argue that this only applies to “man made forms,” as we have already proved to you multiple times that this includes ALL FORMS, whether man made or not. The moon, the sun, the stars, and the whole host of heaven are not “man made” forms, yet they are forbidden from being worshipped as G-d according to Deut 4:19. Likewise, the form of man is forbidden from being worshipped in Deuteronomy 4:16. Thus, since your jesus assumed the form of a man, the worship of your jesus is idolatry!
Simple as that!
Yehuda,
I think I see what you are saying — but no one of the Mashiachim worships the L-rd Yeshua as a mortal man.
It’s true that the L-rd Yeshua came from heaven to be temporarily housed within a physical body– but no one worships that physical body.
_______________________________
Kavi, you worship a creature that was once created, lived and died. Just because you think that the creature is also a “god” doesn’t lessen your sin of idolatry – it actually amplifies the severity of it, since you put that false “god” along side the G-d of the Hebrew Bible, the G-d of Israel, the true G-d whom you, unfortunately, don’t know.
Oy vey.
“It’s true that the L-rd Yeshua came from heaven to be temporarily housed within a physical body–”
No, it’s just not true at all. It’s a myth.
“Lets say for arguments sake that G-d “has” a form. That wouldn’t change the fact that G-d specifically forbids Israel from worshipping ANY FORM in Deuteronomy…”
And this is the same argument I pointed out to Kavi, when I showed that God commanded that the generation standing before Moshe at the Jordan, and by extension all future generations of the Children of Israel, were not to worship any god that they or their fathers (the previous generation that God brought out of Egypt). Why take things any further?
Again, the operative was not whether Jesus was hanging out with God in heaven at His right hand at Sinai — it was whether the people knew and experienced Jesus as god at that time.
The answer? No. They didn’t.
The required response then? They, and we, cannot worship Jesus. It’s cut and dried.
Kavi, all your twists and turns, your arguing what’s possible, the nature of God… all is pointless. The NT cannot possibly be the word of God in light of this commandment. You have nowhere to go.
Sorry — “any god that they or their fathers (the previous generation that God brought out of Egypt) had not known.”
Kavi, it’s hard for me to take you seriously when you are trying to tell me that one of the men who visited Abraham in Genesis 18 was actually a “pre-incarnate jeezer.”
See Kavi, I know that when you say that your “lord yeshua came from heaven to be temporarily housed within a physical body,” that you are referring specifically to the supposed “incarnation” of your jeezer. You are referring to his supposed “virgin birth” and his time on earth up until his death and supposed “resurrection.”
But what is really hysterical to me is this whole “pre-incarnation” lore that you yeshu believers have conjured up…which, by the way, jesus never even claimed to be. Yes that’s right. Your jeezer never claimed to be one of the three men who ate with Abraham in Genesis 18. (And no, your jeezer supposedly claiming “before Abraham was, I am” doesn’t count. That statement is ambiguous and does not give us any specific indication that your jeezer was saying “I was one of those three angels who Abraham ate with.” That is your eisegetical interpretation!)
But Kavi, back on topic…What is intriguing about this “pre-incarnate jeezer” nonsense is that you are trying to tell me that you don’t “worship the physical body” of your jeezer…
Really? You want me to buy that?
You’re the one who is insisting that your jeezer came to earth and “TEMPORARILY” assumed the “form” of a “man” but still remained “fully god” during his time on earth as the “incarnation.” You and other jeezer believers describe this time as a very unique time in history and also as the most important time because this was the first time that the jeezer came as a man to earth!
Or do you?…
See, Kavi, I would have an easier time believing/understanding your position on the jeezer coming to earth, “from heaven to be temporarily housed within a physical body,” if you weren’t already trying to convince me that your jeezer already did that before he was birthed by mary. The idea that your jeezer came to earth in “human form” even before the supposed “incarnation” described in the NT, is an idea that contradicts your position that you “do not worship that physical body,” of jesus.
Think about it: If your jeezer didn’t need to have an “incarnation” in order to assume a “bodily form,” then that basically renders the purpose of the supposed “incarnation” to be meaningless! It means that the fact that jesus holds a human bodily form is the essence of who jesus is to you, whether it be in his supposed “pre-incarnate form” or his “incarnate form” or his “heavenly form” or any other theoretical “form” that you conjure up. The essence of what you believe about jesus is that he is supposedly an “eternal form of a man which has pre-existed creation which is synonymous with the Creator of the universe.”
This concept of your “god” is the very definition of the idolatry described in Deuteronomy 4:16…We are FORBIDDEN from worshipping G-d in ANY FORM INCLUDING MAN!
You try and weasel yourself out of this by claiming that you “don’t worship the physical form,” yet you are the one trying to argue that your jeezer “existed in the form of man before creation.” By definition, your jeezer is a form of a man. And according to Deuteronomy 4:9-19, to worship your jeezer is idolatry!
So you can keep whining about how your jeezer supposedly is “more than a man,” but when it comes right down to the wire, the very fact that your jeezer is the form of a man that can be tangibly comprehended by humans and worshiped, this fact disqualifies your jeezer from being G-d.
Your jeezer was not our Creator and he does not deserve our worship.
Shalom
Friends,
First, Deuteronomy 4 says clearly that the Israelites “saw no form”– there is nothing here that says Elohim has “no form.”
Second, Deuteronomy 4 says for Israel not to fashion an image of mankind, creature, NOR worship stars, planets, the moon, etc.
[*] The L-rd Yeshua is not like any of these forbidden things:
— mankind did not “make” or “fashion” the L-rd Yeshua.
— Yeshua is not like a planet, star, moon, etc.
__________________________________
Kavi, did you also know that the first man, Adam, as not “fashioned” by Israel as an image?
I guess that means that we can worship Adam according to you!
Also, the “first fish” was not “fashioned” by Israel as an image.
I guess that means we can potentially worship “the first fish” according to you!
Kavi, are you starting to see how your interpretation is absurd? You are allowing for the worship of “G-d made things.”
The prohibition of “form worship” IS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO MAN MADE THINGS.
Otherwise, Adam, (the first man) the first fish, the first bird, the first plant, etc. is fair game for worship!
So your worship of the “first jeezer” as a god is just as much of a violation of Deuteronomy 4:9-19 as the worship of any other “first” form…
The worship of jesus is idolatry any way you slice it!
Shalom
I did not read everything in the discution, but according to the anonymous writer of Hebrew, Abraham hosted ANGELS! (Hebrew 13:2). And for Isaiah 7, was Isaiah’s wife virgin as well? The word “the” specify that Ahab knew which virgin Isaiah was talking about. So if it is a double prophecy, then Isaiah’s wife also was virgin and that would make no sense for Christian’s doctrine, Jesus would be the second son born of a virgin birth?
“know that when you say that your “lord yeshua came from heaven to be temporarily housed within a physical body,” that you are referring specifically to the supposed “incarnation” of your jeezer. You are referring to his supposed “virgin birth” and his time on earth up until his death and supposed “resurrection.”
Probaly Jesus had more than one preincarnation… Yes Yehuda, before Genesis 18, Jesus was preincarnated, then Isaiah’s son was also Jesus preincaranation, and all the time that a man was seeing as god, then it most have been one of the preincarantion of Jesus. Because he was born of “The virgin”. It was a triple prophecy. Seriously, there is nothing about that verse that talks about Jesus. It talks about HOSPITALITY. Now if you want to take all the hard thing to understand in the bible and make them refer to Jesus, it makes me think about the conspiracy theory. God has not body, G-d was a human in Genesis 18, explanation of the contradiction, Jesus. It does not work like that Kavi, you add things in the text! This Bible verse talks about Hospitality. Leviticus 19 talks about the prohibition to eat blood. Psalm 22 talks about a prayer of David. Why do you take so many things out of context!
Friends,
Elohim created all things in heaven and earth.
The Yehudim and Goyim both made images to worship these physical creations and/or to mimic what they conceived in their minds whatever god(s) may look like in the spiritual realm. The true G-d addresses these evils in Deuteronomy 4.
When the voice was heard from Mt. Horeb– did the Israelites worship a voice? No– they worshipped the One unseen from Heaven who spoke to them.
In the same way, the Mashiachim do not worship a mere mortal– they worship the Son of Man who came down from above, temporarily clothed Himself in a physical body, and returned to heaven above. [Daniel 7:13; Psalm 68:18; Proverbs 30:4]
So, I can completely agree with Judaism that anyone who makes statues, pictures, movies, etc of Elohim is committing idolatry.
_______________________________
Rabbi Chaim stated, “So I invite our true Christian friends, not to hold your tongue, and I urge our Jewish friends, not to conceal Judaism from the Christians. Engage in honest, unbridled religious discussion.”
In keeping with the Rabbi’s request, would it not be best that all those who dialogue here to:
[a] speak out freely?
[b] maintain respectful verbal and written communications?
Shalom
_______________________________
“they worship the Son of Man who came down from above, temporarily clothed Himself in a physical body, and returned to heaven above.
So Kavi, are you saying that you do not believe that your jesus ascended bodily into heaven as stated in Acts. 1:9-10, and remains there to this day?
Hi Kavi, I agree with a respectful communication and thank you for the discussion. This blog would not be the same if everybody would agree on everything. Anyway, I often hear Christian saying that G-d can do whatever He wants. And it usually follow the question “Can’t G-d decide to put a body?” Usually Jewish would say, and I agree, that G-d specifically say that “G-d is not a man” and even if it is not the meaning of the verse, G-d would not do something that he say he would not do. In the same way I can ask you “Can G-d do anything he wants? ” And if so, “Can G-d forgive my sin without Jesus sacrifice”. You will usually say that G-d cannot forgive without a sacrifice, but doesn’t it contradict the Scriptures (Ezekiel 18)?
Kavi, you are the master of circular reasoning. The reason why we come down so hard on you is that you have been disproven multiple times, yet you continue to spout on and on about how verses that have nothing to do with your jeezer (Daniel 7:13, Psalm 68:18, Proverbs 30:4) actually “prove” your jeezer to be your god and your “messiah.”
But these verses and the rest of the Tanach never give any credence to your jeezer being the Messiah or Hashem. You implement circular reasoning by using these verses and say “the jeezer is called the “son” in the NT. Therefore, every time the word “son” is mentioned in the Tanach, it must mean it’s the jeezer!”
This is just dumb. There is no way around it, Kavi. Your argument is dumb. There is no nice way of putting it. We have already proven to you that Daniel 7:13-14 was a dream and the interpretation is right there plain as day in the subsequent voices. It has nothing to do with the worship of the Messiah as a god, and even if it did, (It doesn’t!) it still wouldn’t prove that your jeezer is the subject of Daniel 7:13-14, especially since your jeezer failed to fulfill any of this prophesy, as even you admit as you are hopelessly waiting for your jeezer to do this in your belief in the fictitious “second coming” of your jeezer.
Your argument is the same with Proverbs 30:4. You implement circular reasoning to say “well this must be the jeezer because it says the word ‘son.’ ” Well I have news for you Kavi. Israel is G-d’s first born SON according to Exodus 4:22. So contrary to your absurd argumentation, the word “son” is not synonymous with “the jeezer” in the Tanach.
So please, stop making a fool out of yourself. Stop quoting Daniel 7:13-14 and saying that this is your jeezer, when you have no proof of it being your jeezer other than an empty promise that your jeezer will “come back” to fulfill this verse. Stop telling us that the “son of man” will be “worshiped” as a “god in the flesh” when Daniel 7:18 and 7:27 explains to us what Daniel 7:13-14 really means.
And for goodness sakes, stop telling us that the worship of your jeezer is not idolatry, as Deuteronomy 4:9-19 is not exclusive to “man made idols.” Please consider this example from the Book of Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 28:2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: So said the Lord God: Because your heart is proud, and you said, ‘I am a god, I have sat in a seat of God, in the heart of the seas,’ but you are a man and not a god, yet you have made your heart like the heart of God.
This passage also applies to your jeezer. If your jeezer claimed “I am G-d,” then your jeezer was sinning in the exact same manner as the prince of Tyre. If Ezekiel lived during the time of your jeezer, he would have told your jeezer the same thing:
“Son of man, say to the jeezer: So said the Lord G-d: Because your heart is proud, and you said, ‘I am G-d, I have sat in the seat of G-d, and in the heart of the seas,’ but you are a man and not G-d, yet you have made your heart like the heart of G-d.”
The prince of Tyre was not “fashioned by the hands of man.” So too, your jeezer was not “fashioned by the hands of man.”
According to your logic, we are allowed to worship anything that was not fashioned by the hands of man, since you want to restrict the prohibition to only “man made things,” so that you can attempt to reconcile your idolatrous worship of the jeezer.
Well sorry, Kavi, it doesn’t work that way. There’s a reason why G-d made a point to tell Ezekiel that the worship of the prince of Tyre is considered the same idolatrous sin as worshipping a carved stone statue of him. So too, the worship of your jeezer as “the son” is considered the same idolatrous sin as worshipping a carved stone statue of the jeezer.
So please, Kavi, heed G-d’s warning not to worship Him in ANY FORM. Your jeezer is not excluded from this prohibition. It does not matter if your jeezer was the “first” form that “preexisted creation” as you baselessly claim. (Which, by the way, is oxymoronic anyway…) A form is a form is a form and your jeezer was a form. The very essence of what you believe about him as the “son” is exactly what Deuteronomy 4:9-19 explicitly forbids Israel to worship.
Your worship of the jeezer is a classic case of idolatry, Kavi. It’s time you faced the music…
Shalom
“Son of man, say to the jeezer…”
LOL!
Yehuda,
I don’t recall being ever being disproven but, just as a reminder, Rabbi Chaim clearly states that Rashi identifies the Son of Man is the “final” Messiah– that is, Mashiach ben David.
Rabbi Chaim in this article that Gene posted said,
“They [Christians] have not mastered Talmudic thought, nor studied the volumes of Talmud and Rabbis writings, in decades of diligent study under Talmudic Sages, the only possessors of G-d’s Oral Law. Such a lack of Talmudic study officially locks out anyone from attaining any semblance of Torah authority.”
Now, the Mashiachim are free to disagree with the Oral Law, the rabbinate, and Rashi’s interpretation, but if those who follow the faith of Judaism deny the Tanakh and the Rabbis, by what authority can you claim understanding that the Son of Man in Daniel 7 is “Israel”?
Please let us know.
_____________________________
Kavi, we cannot disprove something that has not happen yet. Nor can you prove it, because it has not happened yet. But it silly to say that it proves anything either, because it has not happened yet. So please, that whole “Son of Man”, being Jesus is not based on fact. So please, it is the same as being disproved. Someone claiming that he will come in the clouds of heaven, does not mean it will happened, (maybe if he is parachutist)! Now, why should I believe that it proves Jesus when it has not happened yet. If it has not happened yet, then it proves nothing, so basically, you won’t convince anybody with prophecies that have not happened yet.
By the authority of the angel who told Daniel the interpretation of his own dream who explicitly told him in Daniel 7:18 and Daniel 7:27 that the kingdom given to the “son of man” represented the kingdom given to the “holy ONES of the Most High,” not just one individual, as you falsely claim…
And also, Rashi himself, who says that the son of man includes not only the Messiah, but also that ISRAEL IS LIKENED TO A MAN, including Israel in the description of the “one like the son of man,” along with the Messiah.
So, Kavi, in all honestly, are you illiterate? Can you not read English? I can only reconcile that you are not capable of reading the English language…Either that or you are in a deep denial about the reality of Rashi’s words.
I am in agreement that the on of man represents “the final Messiah” ALONG SIDE ISRAEL, just as Rashi states.
I don’t know why you keep going on and on about the Rabbi Chaim fellow, especially when he isn’t saying anything different than what I am saying. You provide no textual evidence that this Rabbi Chaim is in disagreement that the “son of man” represents the “final Messiah” EXCLUSIVELY and no one else. Please, show me an example of this Rabbi Chaim’s writing that says that Rashi was not including Israel in his interpretation of the one “like the son of man” described in Daniel 7:13-14.
Any simpleton can read the Rashi on Daniel 7:13-14 and acknowledge that Rashi was not saying that the “one like the son of man” refers exclusively to the Messiah, but rather to Israel, Messiah included! This is precisely why Rashi says of Daniel 7:14 concerning the kingdom that the “one like the son of man” receives that “ISRAEL IS LIKENED TO A MAN.” This is in reference to the “one like the son of man” who receives the kingdom. This includes the Messiah, but is not exclusive to the Messiah. Rashi reiterates this idea of Israel representing the “one like the son of man” who receives the kingdom in Daniel 7:13-14 in his explanation of Daniel 7:18, which describes the kingdom being received by the “holy ONES of the Most High,” of which Rashi describes as representing ISRAEL, Messiah included!
So stop abusing Rashi, Kavi. You lost this argument a long time ago. It’s time you fess up to the truth.
Shalom
And just shut up Kavi once and for all on this, Rabbi Yisroel Blumenthal wrote an article recently dealing with Daniel 7. Here it is here.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/daniel-7-and-acceptance-of-scripture-an-open-letter-to-bru/#comment-20741
Someone in the comments section asked this question to Rabbi Blumenthal:
Dppvod says:
May 10, 2015 at 11:54 am
Rashi says and Artscroll comments that the son of man in vs 13 is Messiah. Vs. 27 refers to the nation of Israel. I don’t see any contradiction here as the Messiah will rule the nation of Israel Gods holy exalted people is this wrong? I didn’t read Bru so I don’t know exactly what he said.
Doovid says:
May 10, 2015 at 11:56 am
Forgive my typing error my name is Doovid
Reply
And Rabbi Blumenthal replied with this:
yourphariseefriend says:
May 10, 2015 at 12:46 pm
Doovid
Rashi explains in verse 14 that the son of man is Israel – the Messiah as Israel’s king represents Israel – but the son of man is not being served as a divine being but as representative of God’s firstborn son Israel
Reply
So there you have it, Kavi. Rabbi Yisroel Blumethal agrees with me that Daniel 7:14 explains that the “one like the son of man” represents Israel, Messiah included!
So stop being a fool, Kavi. This is what Rashi teaches. Your contextual abuse of Rashi ends here!
Yup. Even I was able to find it.
On Chabad’s web site:
“And the high holy ones will receive the kingdom: These are Israel, who will take the kingdom from the fourth one.”
______________________________
Shalom!
Hmmm. . . so we have two Rabbi’s with two different interpretations of Rashi’s interpretation. [Hey, isn’t there a good-natured josh about “a third opinion” here?] :)
Rabbi Blumenthal vs Rabbi Chaim– I have to think R.Chaim got it right because he has no reason to be biased like R.Blumenthal.
______________________________
So, let’s gently try to clarify the matter:
[*] The Son of Man in Daniel 7 is not Israel simply because they would be “served” like the Ancient of Days– isn’t this practice called “idolatry”?
[*] In the book of Daniel, the word “serve” is only used in relation to deity– the angel would never provide an interpretation which is idolatrous.
[*] The Son of Man is not Israel because the Messiah is from the line of Judah– not all 12 tribes.
[*] To claim that Israel is the Messiah would squelch other commentators who believed in a individual Mashiach ben David [e.g., Akiva, Saadia Gaon, etc]
[*] The early 1st century Sadducees and Pharisees used Daniel 7 to condemn Yeshua to death because of blasphemy as a literal “Son of the Blessed One”– not because Yeshua was some figurative “Israel” [Mark 14]
[*] The translation of Daniel 7:27 listed on chabad’s website is poorly done– it is not the best one in accordance with the Aramaic language which is:
“And the kingdom, and the dominion, even the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heavens, is given to the people — the holy ones of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom and all dominions do serve and obey Him.”
[*] Elohim is the Sovereign of a dominion that will never end– not Israel. Israel certainly has an inheritance in the kingdom of Elohim ONLY because Elohim graciously grants it. King Mashiach ben David is the King of this kingdom.
I suppose more could be written, but these proofs are overwhelming– both reasonable and logical.
______________________________
Let me give you a lesson in context, Kavi.
Daniel 7:1-14 describes Daniel’s DREAM/VISION. Do you know what a DREAM/VISION is Kavi? A DREAM/VISION is not to be taken literally and utilizes vivid imagery to represent various ideas and concepts. The beginning of Daniel chapter 7 begins like this:
Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar, the king of Babylon, **DANIEL SAW A DREAM,** and the visions of his mind [while asleep] on his bed; then he wrote the dream and said the beginnings of the matters.
Daniel 7:2 Daniel raised his voice and said: I saw in my vision during the night, and behold the four winds of the heavens were stirring up the Great Sea.
Daniel 7:3 And four huge beasts were coming up out of the sea, each one different from the other.
Daniel 7:4 The first one was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle, until its wings were plucked and it was taken from the earth, and it stood on feet like a man, and the heart of a mortal was given it.
Daniel 7:5 And behold another second beast, resembling a bear, and it stood to one side, and there were three ribs in its mouth between its teeth, and so did they say to it, ‘Get up, eat much meat.’
Daniel 7:6 After this, I saw, and behold another one, like a leopard, and it had four wings of a bird on its back, and the beast had four heads, and dominion was given it.
Daniel 7:7 After this, I saw in the visions of the night, and behold a fourth beast, awesome and dreadful and exceedingly strong, and it had huge iron teeth. It ate and crushed, and trampled the rest with its feet, and it was different from all the beasts that were before me, and it had ten horns.
Now Kavi, I want to interrupt here to ask you a question. Given the description of these beasts,” do you believe that we are to take this literally? Must we assume that there will be four beasts, one of them having “iron teeth” and “ten horns” that will come in the future or who have already came? Is this what you believe?
Anyway, moving on…
Daniel 7:8 I looked at these horns and behold another small horn came up among them, and three of the first horns were plucked out before it, and behold eyes like human eyes were on this horn, and a mouth speaking arrogantly.
Daniel 7:9 I was looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days sat; His raiment was as white as snow, and the hair of His head was like clean wool; His throne was sparks of fire, its wheels were a burning fire.
Daniel 7:10 A river of fire was flowing and emerging from before Him; a thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand ten thousands arose before Him. Justice was established, and the books were opened.
Daniel 7:11 I saw then from the sound of the arrogant words that the horn spoke, I looked until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to a flame of fire.
Daniel 7:12 But as for the other beasts, their dominion was removed, and they were given an extension of life until a set time.
Now here come your favorite verses, Kavi. **Keep in mind that they are still within the context of Daniel’s DREAM…**
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him.
Daniel 7:14 And He gave him dominion and glory and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and tongues shall serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not be removed, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.
Now Kavi, have you ever read the next verse? Daniel 7:15-28 is CRUCIAL to understanding what was meant in Daniel 7:1-14. Lets read on:
Daniel 7:15 My spirit-I, Daniel-became troubled within its sheath, and the visions of my mind terrified me.
Daniel 7:16 I drew near to one of those standing [there], **AND I ASKED HIM THE TRUTH OF ALL THIS, AND HE TOLD IT TO ME, AND HE LET ME KNOW THE INTERPRETATION OF THE MATTERS.**
Kavi, here we see that Daniel was confused about the vision. Daniel did not understand what the vision meant on his own. He needed the assistance of an angel to gain true understanding of the dream/vision. Thus, the next few verses will explain to us what Daniel’s dream actually represents. Moving on…
Daniel 7:17 [He said] “These huge beasts, which are four, are four kingdoms, which will arise from the earth
Daniel 7:18 And **THE HIGH HOLY ONES WILL RECEIVE THE KINGDOM,** and THEY will inherit the kingdom forever and to all eternity.”
Kavi, compare Daniel 7:18 to Daniel 7:13-14. The HIGH HOLY **ONES** (plural!) WILL RECEIVE THE KINGDOM FOR ETERNITY! The “son of man” description is not exclusive to
one person according to Daniel 7:18! Please keep this in mind as we read on…
Daniel 7:19 Then I wished to determine the truth of the fourth beast, which was different from all of them- excessively dreadful; its teeth were of iron and its nails of copper; it ate and crushed to powder, and the rest it trampled with its feet.
Daniel 7:20 And concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other one that came up and [the] three [that] fell before it, and the horn that was like this and that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly, and its appearance was greater than [that of] its companions.
Daniel 7:21 I looked and the horn that was like this waged war with the holy ones and overwhelmed them.
Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of Days came and gave revenge to the high holy ones, and the time arrived that the holy ones inherited the kingdom.
Daniel 7:23 So he said, “The fourth beast [represents] a fourth kingdom [that] will be on the earth, which will be different from all the kingdoms, and it will devour the whole land and trample it and crush it.
Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns that [sprout] from that kingdom [represent] ten kings [that] will rise, and the last one will rise after them, and he will be different from the first, and he will humble three kings.
Daniel 7:25 And he will speak words against the Most High, and he will oppress the high holy ones, and he will think to change the times and the law, and they will be delivered into his hand until a time, two times, and half a time.
Daniel 7:26 And the judgment shall be established, and they will remove his dominion to be destroyed and annihilated until the end.
Daniel 7:27 And the KINGDOM and the DOMINION and the greatness of the kingdoms under all the heavens **WILL BE GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE HIGH HOLY ONES;** its kingdom is a perpetual kingdom, and all dominions will serve and obey [it].”
As you can see Kavi, the kingdom mentioned that was given to the “son of man” in Daniel’s DREAM was interpreted as being the kingdom that was given to the PEOPLE OF THE HIGH HOLY ONES. This is PLURAL. It does not refer to one individual.
And for completion’s sake:
Daniel 7:28 Until here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts terrified me greatly, and my colors changed upon me, and I kept the matter in my heart.
As you can see, Kavi, if we look at the CONTEXT of Daniel 7:1-14, we can see that what the text literally says is quite different from the INTERPRETATION OF THE DREAM given in
Daniel 7:15-28. Knowing this, lets review something you said a while back when I showed you Deuteronomy 4:9-19 in order to show you how worshipping G-d in any form is considered idolatry. Here was your strawman response:
“[**] Deuteronomy 4 is irrelevant in the case of the “Son of Man” for at least a couple reasons:
–G-d indeed has a form as the Ancient of Days [Daniel 7]
–The Son of Man is neither some created image of man NOR did the Most High create Him [Deuteronomy 4 and Daniel 7]”
Kavi, I see no mention of the supposed “form of the Ancient of Days” in the interpretation given to Daniel of his dream given in Daniel 7:15-28. I also see no mention of “the son of man” in the interpretation of Daniel’s dream in Daniel 7:15-28. Are you really so arrogant and blind sided that you will put your interpretation of Daniel’s dream over the interpretation given in the Tanach to Daniel by the angel?! It appears that you really don’t care about the interpretation that the angel gave to Daniel, and you would rather make up your own interpretation of who the “son of man” represents, even though the angel clearly tells us that it represents the **PEOPLE OF THE MOST HOLY ONES.** This is not simply one person.
Also, Kavi, concerning your “יִפְלְח֑וּן” argument and how you interpret it to mean “worship,” we have already proven that “יִפְלְח֑וּן” here does not mean worship, as same word is used in verse 27 with regards to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL/THE PEOPLE OF THE MOST HOLY ONES. In this context, the word “יִפְלְח֑וּן” means “serve.” It does not mean to be worshipped as a god! (Chas v’shalom!)
So unless you want to tell me that the children of Israel are to be worshipped as gods along with your jeezer, I wouldn’t keep pushing for that if I were you… ;-)
So you want to talk about context, Kavi? You want to know about what Daniel’s dream represents?
Then read Daniel 7:15-28. Stop making up your own interpretations and isolating two verses of a dream and then saying “LOOK! JEEZER SAID HE WAS THE SON OF MAN! THIS MAKES HIM THE FULFILLMENT OF THIS PROPHESY THAT WAS NOT FULFILLED YET BECAUSE I JUST KNOW!”
Literally, this is your argument, Kavi. Your jeezer did not fulfill Daniel 7:13-14 and you know it. This is one of the christian “second coming” arguments that even the most kooky of christians would have to admit was not fulfilled by jesus during his time on earth. You’ve been obsessing on this “son of man” for nearly a month now. And now that the falsehood of your position has been exposed, you now claim that you care about “context.”
Well there’s your context, Kavi.
Kavi, the Messiah is a part of Israel. Rashi explains this clearly. Rashi’s interpretation is consistent with the angel’s interpretation in Daniel 7:15-28. I never said the passage didn’t apply to the Messiah and neither does Rashi.
But you error when you assume that the “son of man” who receives the kingdom and dominion refers ONLY to the Messiah. The text doesn’t say that and Rashi doesn’t say that either.
So please Kavi, you have already contextually abused scripture enough in order to falsely champion your jeezer as the subject of this passage. Please do not abuse the context of Rashi. I know you’re sore about your loss in this argument, but its time you come to terms with the fact that Daniel 7:13-14 does not refer to ONLY the Messiah receiving a kingdom and it also does not refer to the worship of the Messiah either. Rashi understood this. Daniel understood this. The angel who told Daniel the interpretation of his dream understood this.
Do you understand this?
It isn’t rocket science…
Here is the Rashi on Daniel 7:14 for Kavi to read.
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him.
And here is the Rashi on Daniel 7:13…:
one like a man was coming: That is the King Messiah.
and… up to the Ancient of Days: Who was sitting in judgment and judging the nations.
came: arrived, reached.
Knowing Kavi, he will contextually abuse this Rashi and say that Rashi identified the “son of man” EXCLUSIVELY with the Messiah. But we know better…Lets read the text verse and the
Rashi accompanying it.
Daniel 7:14 And He gave him dominion and glory and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and tongues shall serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not be removed, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.
And here is the Rashi on Daniel 7:14…:
And He gave him dominion: And to that man He gave dominion over the nations, for the heathens he likens to beasts, **AND ISRAEL HE LIKENS TO A MAN BECAUSE THEY ARE HUMBLE AND INNOCENT.**
Get it Kavi? The Messiah isn’t the only one receiving the kingdom in Daniel 7:13-14. Rashi makes it clear that ISRAEL IS LIKENED TO A MAN. The Messiah is a part of Israel, and yes, the Messiah is included as a “Holy one of the Most High.” Your problem is that there is more than one person who receives the kingdom, just as Daniel 7:18 and 7:27 explicitly state.
So you will find no solace in Rashi for your erroneous interpretation of Daniel 7:13-14. The verses do not refer exclusively to the Messiah and the Messiah is not to be worshipped as a god.
So now that you know this, Kavi, isn’t it time you cut out the jesus foolishness? You know that your jeezer failed to fulfill this prophesy on all counts. Now that you know the true meaning of this prophesy, why would you continue to worship jesus?
I suggest you stop worshipping jesus as this passage does not endorse such. Your jesus is not the Messiah as he failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies. Moreover, this passage does not endorse the worshipping of the Messiah, and nor does any other passage in the Tanach.
Shalom
Kavi, you are capitalizing “son of man” as well as “his” in “his kingdom”. These are not capitalized in the text and by doing so you are changing the meaning of it. Of course, I get that it reflects your theological viewpoint, but understand that you’re imposing your interpretation onto the text and presenting it as though it was written that way. Did you do that yourself, or are you taking it from one of your Bibles?
Yup Yehuda, better to just repeat what Kavi clearly didn’t read, or understand, or address than beating your head against a wall. I decided to quit engaging in that a week ago as you may have seen.
You realize of course that if Kavi admits that a vision (dream) can’t be equated with reality then he faces a serious problem with defending Paul’s reports of direct communications with the jeezer, because he never met him in real life. Paul’s epileptic auditory hallucinations as well as his own dreams are the basis of his authority.
Yehuda,
Daniel’s visions represent realities–
[*] The beasts represent empires– Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman
[*] The Ancient of Days represents G-d the Father
[*] The Son of Man represents G-d the Son, Yeshua
[*] The holy ones represent the children of Israel [the righteous Yehudim and Goyim]
_________________________________
BTW– Saadia Gaon ties the Son of Man to King Messiah coming “humbly”, riding on a donkey [ Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 9:9-10]. Again, a singular King– not Israel.
BTWW– I will try to continue with more proofs later today from two witnesses– Daniel and Zechariah.
Shalom!
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“children of Israel [the righteous Yehudim and Goyim]”
Kavi… you should read my most recent post about Replacement Theology about Christianity’s penchant for redefining (er replacing) Israel with the Christian Church (that is your “righteous Yehudim and Goyim”).
JC straddled TWO donkeys when he rode in to Jerusalem.. That’s how Luke, the bungling idiot, understood the Septuagint verses — because he was a Greek gentile posing as a Jewish witness, and neither read Hebrew (like Paul) nor understood its’ poetic structure.
“children of Israel [the righteous Yehudim and Goyim]”
Point proven, even dispensationalists are really replacement theologists in disguise.
Jim, it was the author of the book of Matthew, not Luke. But you are probably right that he was a Greek that could not understand Hebrew.
“Jim, it was the author of the book of Matthew, not Luke. But you are probably right that he was a Greek that could not understand Hebrew.”
Thanks for the correction, Remi.
I think many people are not aware that the NT writers relied on the Septuagint, which was the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that was in wide circulation among Jews in the Mediterranean in the first century CE, when the NT was written.
The Septuagint was begun in the third century BCE in Alexandria, initially comprised of the Pentateuch, with the rest being completed three centuries later. Obviously, there was no group of 70 who translated the entire Septuagint at the same time, which was a myth that developed that many believers and certain groups still cite today, such as Jews for Jesus.
The Septuagint translation, which contains not only many errors, but many “translations” which are actually interpretations. We see that very process in the majority of modern bibles, too. The problem is that the writers of the NT used the Septuagint instead of the Hebrew scriptures, and the Greek bible contained changes which had theological impact.
For example, in Galatians 3:13, Paul wrote:
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)”
He was citing Deuteronomy 21:23, which the Septuagint translates as:
“for everyone that is hanged on a tree is cursed of God.” (Brenton)
This conveys a theological point, and Paul took it and built upon it.
But the problem is that this is an incorrect translation and meaning of the verse. The NJPS version is correct. I’m including the entire verse, as well as the preceding one, so you can see the clarity of meaning with the right translation and context:
“If a man is guilty of a capital offense and is put to death, and you impale him on a stake [or tree], you must not let his corpse remain on the stake overnight, but must bury him the same day. For an impaled [hanged] body is an affront to God; you shall not defile the land that the LORD your God is giving you to possess.” (Deut 21:22-23, NJPS)
The real theological point is that even a criminal’s body is a creation of God, and to leave it out in plain view, and where birds of prey begin to eat the carrion, is an offense to God, and therefore the practice defiles the land, which was to be kept holy.
This is a completely different message than what Paul understood. But the Septuagint translation is what informed Paul. Paul, the self-proclaimed authority on the scriptures, clearly did not understand Hebrew. If he did, he would never have made this mistake. But this is only one of MANY mistakes Paul made in his quotations and in the development of his theology.
Likewise, the other NT authors did not understand Hebrew, as is similarly evident in their writings.
The NT is not the word of God. It’s a misinformed distortion.
Friends,
Yes, you are correct– in my rush to get to work this morning, I did indeed make an “oops” :(
So, it should be re-written and referenced as:
______________________________________
Daniel’s visions represent realities–
[*] The beasts represent empires– Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman
[*] The Ancient of Days represents G-d the Father
[*] The Son of Man represents G-d the Son, Yeshua
[*] The holy ones represent the righteous Jews and righteous Gentiles belonging to the Sovereign Elohim [Zechariah 14:5 and Deuteronomy 32:43]
_________________________________
BTW– Saadia Gaon ties the Son of Man to King Messiah coming “humbly”, riding on a donkey [ Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 9:9-10]. Again, a singular King– not Israel as the twelve tribes.
BTWW– I still plan to continue with more proofs tonight from the two witnesses– Daniel and Zechariah.
Shalom!
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“[*] The holy ones represent the righteous Jews and righteous Gentiles belonging to the Sovereign Elohim [Zechariah 14:5 and Deuteronomy 32:43]”
That seems like replacement theology for me, still.
Origen is actually the one who gave us the Septuagint.
http://www.workmenforchrist.org/Bible/History/Septuagint.html
Even some Christian believe that the Septuagint was rubbish!
Kavi, Zechariah 9:9 does not talks about Jesus. Read the verse:
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
Righteous and victorious? Yes, from war, the king will come on a donkey after wining a war. And that is why on next verse, G-d will take the chariots from Ephraim, because he (the messiah) will win the war and Ephraim will not need an chariots for battle.
I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
and the warhorses from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow will be broken.
He will proclaim peace to the nations.
Nothing to do with Jesus, or any merchant could have fulfilled that prophecy. Anybody that rode a donkey could have done it.
Read the whole chapter in context, Jesus “Triumphal” entry has nothing to do, regardless if he rode on one, two or three donkeys. (A bite more impressive thought)
Here we have Kavi realizing that he has no case for his abuse of Rashi in trying to make it appear as though Rashi believed that the “one like the son of man” only represents the Messiah. Now that he realizes this, he has sifted through more Rabbinic literature to abuse the words of the Saadiah Gaon.
Fun fact Kavi: The Saadiah Gaon did not believe that the Messiah was to be worshipped as a god either. So if you want to use his opinion for your own purposes of contextual abuse, would you be so courteous to acknowledge that the Messiah is not worshipped as a god in context with Daniel 7:13-14?
So yes, we have more Midrashic contextual abuse made by Kavi here. What’s new?
Here are the facts, regardless of Kavi’s contextual abuse of Chazal:
1. The jeezer didn’t fulfill Daniel 7:13-14 during his lifetime, so Kavi is simply putting baseless hope in his jeezer that he will come back to “fulfill” this in the future.
2. The Daniel 7:13-14 was a DREAM and Daniel 7:15-28 describes the interpretation of the dream, which includes the kingdom being given to the “high holy ones” (PLURAL) in Daniel 7:18 and also described in Daniel 7:27.
3. The kingdom that is given to the “high holy ones” is said to be SERVED by all other kingdoms in Daniel 7:27. This does not mean that they are worshipped as a god, as Kavi would foolishly try and have us believe. Thus, there is no worship of the Messiah as a god in Daniel 7:13-14 according to the interpretation given by the angel in Daniel 7:18 and Daniel 7:27, most notably because the kingdom given to the “one like the son of man” is said to be represented by the “high holy ones,” which includes a plurality of people, not just one individual.
So you have no case for your jeezer, Kavi. Even if you were hypothetically correct, and the “one like the son of man” only referred to the Messiah (It doesn’t!) this still wouldn’t prove that the Messiah must be “worshipped as a god,” since Daniel 7:27 refers to a plurality of people receiving a kingdom that is served by other nations.
And the Saadia Gaon agrees!
Also, Jesus was NOT a king !
And worst, the only fact that the New testament quote Zechariah 9:9 as a fulfilment by Jesus proves that it could not be inspired, because it has nothing to do with Jesus. If it would have been inspired, then it would not being quoted as a false fulfilment. This only proves that it is a fraud. You do not need to go farther then that. The NT writer say that it was fulfilled when it has nothing to do with the context of Zechariah 9. All scriptures are supposed to be inspired, then why did Matthew, Mark, Luke and John say that it fulfilled this prophecy when it was totally rub of context!
Be HONEST Kavi, read Zec 9, and tell me it does not talks about Jesus!
“Origen is actually the one who gave us the Septuagint.”
Remi, I read the article you suggested and I have to say that while it is true that scholars state that the actual dates and locations where the Septuagint was written are not known, the article is full of assumptions and conjecture, only one citation outside the bible, and no references to solid data. It was not written by an historian. In fact, the writer’s next sentence after the one you quoted above is:
“He [Origen] gave it [the Septuagint] to us in about the year AD 200. AFTER Christ and the Apostles! This alone proves that our Saviour and the Apostles did not use the Septuagint.”
Paul wrote his epistles with many citations that match the Septuagint perfectly, and died before the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. I think this writer doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
While exact dates of the writings are unknown, the first part of the Septuagint is considered to have been written well before the turn of the millennium by scholarly experts. Paul’s citations, written in the mid-first century, mirror the translations in many cases, as do Josephus’ and some texts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and they lived in the first century. Origen did the majority of his work in the third century CE. Furthermore, analyses of the text show that the usage of the Koine Greek in the Pentateuch portions closely match usage in the centuries BCE, which differ from later usage.
Hi Jim, I actually quote the wrong website. Of course the new testament writer used a Septuagint, but apparently, there were many Greek manuscripts used in Jesus’ time. It was later that Origen compared the different Greek translations and unified the Septuagint that we know today. Now that would explain why so many passage fits the Christian translation (like Psalm 22). Because it was fixed after, christian should not use this translation as proof. But you are right to say that they used the septuagint because the nt writers did not know Hebrew.
To quickly summarize Daniel 7
[*] Rashi, according to certain rabbis [but not all, as Yehuda points out], agree that the Son of Man is the “final” Mashiach ben David
[*] Saadia Gaon ties Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 9:9 to a “single” Messiah, not a plural Israel.
[*] The Son of Man is not the 12 tribes of Israel because the Messiah is from the line of Judah [Genesis 49:10]
[*] Interpreting Israel to be the Messiah means idolatry– only Elohim is to be “served” [Daniel 3:18]
____________________________
We now can look at Zechariah 11 with Daniel 2, Daniel 7, and Daniel 9.
[Zechariah 11:1-4] Both Zechariah and Daniel mention 4 empires– Daniel calls them “beasts” and Zechariah refers to them as worthless “shepherds”.
[Zechariah 11:5-9] Beginning with captivity and Babylonia, the 4 worthless shepherds and Israel’s own shepherds did not spare the people– So, G-d Himself shepherded all Israel [but particularly the faithful few who were afflicted by the majority] during those horrible times. G-d remained faithful to Israel as represented by the two staffs of Favor and Unity.
[Zechariah 11:10-13]
— Yet, after the Greek empire has long died away, HaShem breaks the first staff of Favor due to rejection of Mashiach ben Yosef.
— The faithful few Jews who believed in their Messiah, Yeshua, are described as the afflicted of the flock who understand that prophecy is being fulfilled. This Word of the L-rd is being accomplished during their lifetimes– the time of Messiah has come.
— Israel devalued their good Shepherd, Yeshua the Messiah, for only 30-pieces of silver.
[Zechariah 11:14-15] After rejecting the Messiah, HaShem breaks the second staff of Unity by the destruction of the second temple and the nation in 70 AD by Rome. Rome is the 4th “worthless” shepherd who tears off the hoofs of the sheep [ like the 4th beast in Daniel who has iron teeth and bronze claws ].
____________________________________
[Zechariah 14:5] Forwarding to the last chapter, we find the final Kingdom of the “final” Mashiach ben David:
“Then the L-RD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.”
Yeshua, the Son of Man, who Zechariah calls the L-RD, returns with the righteous Jews and righteous Gentiles to establish His kingdom forever [Daniel 2:44-45 and Daniel 7:13-27]
____________________________________
I hope this synopsis is helpful by “trying” to be reasonable and logical.
Shalom!
Kavi, the only arguments that you regard as reasonable and logical are your own.
To quickly correct Kavi’s erroneous summary of Daniel 7
1. Rashi says the “son of man” is the “final” Mashiach ben David, AND ISRAEL INCLUDED, as explained in Daniel 7:14 and Daniel 7:18 in the Rashi itself. Any Rabbi who disagree simply disagrees with Rashi, as well as the angel who told Daniel this.
2. The Saadia Gaon also understood the “son of man” in the same fashion as Rashi did, as the angel is clear that the “most holy ones” were given the kingdom in Daniel 7:27. The Saadia Gaon correctly understands that the Messiah is not to be worshipped as a god, as Kavi would erroneously have us believe.
3. The “son of man” described in Daniel 7:13-14 is part of a DREAM/VISION that Daniel had and Daniel 7:18 and 7:27 explains to us what Daniel 7:13-14 really means, which is that the kingdom given to the “son of man” represents the kingdom given to the “high holy ones,” not just one individual, as Kavi falsely claims…
4. Interpreting the “son of man” to refer exclusively to the Messiah in Daniel’s dream is erroneous…Kavi is abusing the context of the word used in the Aramaic for “serve” and erroneously claiming that it can only mean being “worshipped as a god.” This is false. And as demonstrated time and time again, the kingdom is not Hashem. The kingdom was given to the “high holy ones” by G-d. We have already proven that “יִפְלְח֑וּן” here does not mean worship, as same word is used in verse 27 with regards to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL/THE PEOPLE OF THE MOST HOLY ONES. In this context, the word “יִפְלְח֑וּן” means “serve.” It does not mean to be worshipped as a god! (Chas v’shalom!)So unless you want to tell me that the children of Israel are to be worshipped as gods along with your jeezer, I wouldn’t keep pushing for that if I were you… ;-)
Kavi, your false teachings have been exposed. Time for you to fess up and admit your mistakes.
Shalom
The Saadia Gaon is also on the books — literally in one of his own books — as rejecting the Christian theology of the Trinity, and thus the deity of the jeezer (that’s for you, Yehuda).
So I’m fine with looking to the Saadia Gaon as an authority, as Kavi wishes.
BTW, Yehuda: Kavi will come back in the usual robotic fashion and simply repeat his previous declarations. Stay calm..
After rejecting the Messiah, HaShem breaks the second staff of Unity by the destruction of the second temple and the nation in 70 AD by Rome.
What? read the text… It is the unity between Judah and Israel, not the destruction of the second temple. But wait, it does not fit with your Jesus story, excuse me.
14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel.
And I took my staff, Beauty, and cut it in two, that I might break the covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day. Thus the poor[a] of the flock, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the Lord. 12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter.
Where did you see the faithful that believe in Jesus? You add things to the text!
Remi,
The staff of unity is broken between them because the nation was destroyed by Rome.
We also find in Daniel 9 the same reference where HaMashiach must come prior to the destruction of the second temple.
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Yehuda,
[] Daniel 3:18 reserves both “worship” and “serve” only for Elohim– Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego would do neither. So,
— to “worship” is idolatry and,
— to “serve” is idolatry.
— to “serve” Israel instead of the Most High is idolatry.
[] Saadia Gaon identifies the Messiah only as a single individual– there is no alternative interpretation for his commentary on Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 9:9
[] It is further required for us to tie Daniel 7 to Zechariah 14:5 where he describes the L-RD coming with the holy ones.
Based on many witnesses, Daniel 7:13-14 and Zechariah 14:5, we find Mashiach ben David is an individual, not the twelve tribes of Israel.
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Jim,
Yes, you are correct– neither Rashi or Saadia Gaon accepted Elohim existence in “unified plurality.”
The Mashiachim are free to agree or disagree with the sages based on our understanding of Messiah as taught by Moses and the Prophets.
______________________________________________
Friends,
Last, isn’t it a tragic that Rashi has no interpretation for Zechariah 11?
A whole chapter hidden away in a dark corner because Rashi could not accept a Messiah coming at the proper time– which was after the Greek empire and just prior to Rome’s crushing the nation and temple in 70 AD.
[] Why does HaShem say Israel as a nation will stumble over the stone? [Isaiah 8:14]
[] Why do we find the same “stone” spoken of in Daniel which will crush all others empires to dust? [Daniel 2:34]
[] This “stone” is not Israel– it is the Messiah, the Son of Man, L-rd Yeshua.
Because of these two prophecies, I cannot fault Rashi– I only find it tragic that HaShem would not allow him to see the Truth when Rashi tried so hard to interpret the Truth.
______________________________________________
To summarize, both Daniel and Zechariah attest to Messiah’s coming prior to 70 AD
Shalom
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Kavi, I used to take you somewhat seriously, but now I see your posts as a joke. I just laugh now because they’re ridiculous. It’s like hearing someone state over and over — with great confidence — that the sun isn’t in the sky… when it is.
However, what’s really notable in this last post of yours is that you did state one truth:
“The Mashiachim are free to agree or disagree with the sages based on our understanding of Messiah as taught by Moses and the Prophets.”
You hit the nail on the head, Kavi. Your objective is to interpret Tanakh and rabbinical commentary so that it supports your beliefs. Rather than looking at the evidence first to see what it actually supports. You’re like a scientist who skews the experimental data to fit his hypothesis. That’s why, when you’re confronted with the truth that you have no credible argument for, you simply revert back to posting your mindless proclamations. But they are empty and meaningless.
We will never change your belief, Kavi. But at least for my part, that wasn’t my objective. I personally don’t care if a gentile has pagan beliefs. I have contributed to this thread, not for your sake, honestly (sorry, no offense), but because I wanted others to realize the lie.
I don’t want Tanakh implicated in the Christian lie, and I don’t want to see good Jews go down the path of idolatry. Those Jews become, by their own choice, the end of their Jewish family line, which had existed for thousands of years because their forebears sacrificed to remain loyal to God and to the Truth. Shame on them.
And shame on you for participating in their demise.
We will never change your belief, Kavi. But at least for my part, that wasn’t my objective. I personally don’t care if a gentile has pagan beliefs.
Hi Jim, I don’t think we can change anybody’s belief anyway. But I do think you should care about what gentile believe. I don’t think that gentiles should worship idols. In the end false gods don’t bring glory to god and those false gods are always against the truth. For me, I just think that it’s impossible for them to see the truth, so there is no point to convince them. I talk about my family and friends as well, who all worship that Jeezer and are stuck with the same fear of Hell. Jim, you really should care for them as much as for Jews. We are pretty much one people. Jewish and Gentiles alike, we are all human. Only that G-d gave you the Torah. And as for Kavi, seriously, it is like a bad broken record, he does not want to go with Zechariah 9, because in the end it does not talk about Jesus, and he knows it. Christianity has been debunked several time and he only skip all our comments. Seriously. He has shown 0 proofs about Jesus and everything he does is incorporating his lies in the text.
Kavi, the 10 tribes never came back from the first exile. They could not have been separated on the destruction of the second temple!
Remi, I agree, Jews should care about Gentiles wallowing in idolatry and Jews should be teachers of nations (while never pushing conversion on them, because G-d doesn’t require Gentiles to become Jews). The problem is that great majority of Gentiles don’t want to hear what Jews have to say and it seems that the nations are once again turning on Israel and Jews. That’s how it always has been and will be until the messianic age. However, those among Gentiles who do want to and are willing to learn from Jews and come without an agenda, they should be provided with materials and opportunities, as long as it is safe for Jews to do so.
Yes Gene, and I always felt welcome by Jewish people. As long as you don’t have the agenda of converting them!
Yeah if you’ll notice, my arguments for Daniel 7:13-14 were purely scriptural. I wasn’t citing any Rabbnical texts at all in my interpretations. I was simply using the angel’s interpretation given to Daniel in Daniel 7:15-28.
KAVI, on the other hand, realized that the Tanach didn’t give him the answers he thought it did, and then he resorted to abusing Rabbinic texts in order to pathetically defend his lost position.
It’s rather disgusting actually…Then when we show him that these same Rabbis reject his idea that the “one like the son of man” must be “worshipped as a god,” KAVI says “Us jeezer believers are free to disagree.”
Oh yeah? Well then stop quoting and abusing the context of Rabbis who you disagree with in order to give false support to your position on Daniel 7:13-14 referring to your jeezer. None of the Rabbis believed that this refers to your jeezer and none of the Rabbis understand the “one like the son of man” to be worshipped as a god!
The very fact that it was KAVI who brought up the Rabbis, just shows his desperation in his dead position. He knows the Tanach contradicts what he believes about Daniel 7:13-14. Daniel 7:15-28 proves that it does not refer to his jeezer and that the “one like the son of man,” is not worshipped as a god.
And Kavi, concerning Daniel 9, it’s ironic that you put such an emphasis on the יִכָּרֵת מָשִׁיחַ part of Daniel 9:26, claiming that it was because of the “cutting off” of this “moshiach” that was the initiator of the “sixfold changes” mentioned in Daniel 9:24, including the “end of transgression/sin.”
You obviously identify this “cutting off” of this “moshiach” with the death of jesus…But what I find ironic about this is that jesus’s death did not accomplish any of the “sixfold promises” mentioned in Daniel 9:24!
Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
Did any of these things happen after your jesus died? Has iniquity been erased from Israel as this verse states concerning “your people”? (Which refer’s to Israel, Daniel’s people.) Do you still sin?
We both know that jesus’s death accomplished none of this…
So the question becomes, why in the world would you associate the promises of Daniel 9:24 with jesus’s death?! It is clear that jesus’s death did not accomplish any of these promises of the end of transgression among Israel or any other people.
So why do you insist that jesus must be this “moshiach” mentioned in Daniel 9:26?
It is interesting to note that Jews and Christians can agree on other passages referring exclusively to the Messiah! Here are a few:
Isaiah 11:1. And a shoot shall spring forth from the **STEM OF JESSE,** and a twig shall sprout from his roots.
Ezekiel 37:24. And **MY SERVANT DAVID** shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.
Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.
Jeremiah 30:9. And they shall serve the Lord their God and **DAVID THEIR KING,** whom I will set up for them.
There is one thing all of these verses have in common: They all use a “Davidic qualifier,” meaning that they all exclusively refer to the Davidic dynasty in some fashion. This is a good reason why Jews and Christians can all understand that these future prophesies refer to one person: Moshiach ben David.
But Daniel 9:24-27, nor the rest of the chapter, give us any indication that this “moshiach” mentioned has any connection to the Davidic dynasty, at least at face value…This lends credibility to the Jewish position that this “moshiach who was cut off” in Daniel 9:26 is not the promised Messiah son of David who is spoken of in the four aforementioned passages above that both Jews and Christians agree refer to the specific individual called “Moshiach ben David.”
In fact, the word “moshiach” is NEVER used to exclusively refer to the individual of “Moshiach ben David” in the Tanach…Ever! Usually, the individual of Moshiach ben David is referred to as “David” or “melech/king.”
So your interpretation of Daniel 9:26 actually runs contradictory to the rest of scripture…
Shalom
“Jim, you really should care for them as much as for Jews. We are pretty much one people. Jewish and Gentiles alike, we are all human.”
Remi, perhaps I sounded a bit harsh or uncaring. But my remark wasn’t intended to reflect just my attitude, but my purpose as well. It reflected my commitment to the Jewish community first. But that doesn’t mean I don’t care about everyone else. Let me ask you this — would you have me chase after Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists, too? I can only do so much.
But your comment is absolutely appropriate, and it recalls to mind a famous saying from the Jewish book, “Pirke Avot”, or “Sayings of the Fathers”, 1:14.
Hillel, who lived in Babylon contemporaneously with Jesus, is credited with this saying:
Gentiles will benefit when they see that Jews know who God is and who He is not. God’s plan is that, until the time of Moshiach, the Jewish people are to remain separate. By this command, we are not all one people.
“And ye shall be holy unto Me; for I the LORD am holy, and have set you apart from the peoples, that ye should be Mine.”
We are to be a light to the nations, but we can only do that if we as a people are distinct from other peoples — distinct in righteousness. But how can we do that if we worship false gods, don’t keep the commandments, and simply blend in with everyone else? Therefore, it is my obligation — understanding what I do about Christianity — to help keep my people from falling into idolatry.
This isn’t just about me or my personal feelings. It’s about my commitment to my people and God’s plan for the world’s salvation — the real plan. So I have to be for Jews first.
I agree with that Jim, and by living Righteous lives and refusing to bow to Jesus, we only show them that their belief is vain and not founded. The Jewish people are the only one that do not venerate Jesus as god or good teacher. So, it frustrates everybody else. When a christian say that he believes in Jesus to a jew, there is this thought coming in his mind “It’s not right, G-d is not a man”. Simple…
Kavi, your jesus did not claim to be divine according to your own NT!
John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, **FOR THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.**
There. Your jeezer himself says that he is not equivalent to the Father. Therefore, jesus cannot be of equal G-d status with the Father even according to your own NT.
There…Now we know that the “one like the son of man” is not worshipped as a god, even according to Kavi’s false NT. For the jeezer claimed he was “less” than the Father, which means he claimed to not be “G-d in the flesh!”
So even your jeezer says he wasn’t G-d. Therefore, even according to the jeezer, the “one like the son of man,” is not to be worshipped as a god!
“There…Now we know that the “one like the son of man” is not worshipped as a god, even according to Kavi’s false NT. For the jeezer claimed he was “less” than the Father, which means he claimed to not be “G-d in the flesh!”
Yes, and that was a raging debate within the early church, until Emperor Constantine stepped and quashed it at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. Of course, his whole purpose in convening the Council in the first place was to unify the empire under a state religion, and this debate was one of a number which he wanted settled. The council issued the Nicene Creed, and anyone opposing the god-man myth was excommunicated, and worse. “Heretical” books were burned and the new propaganda was disseminated. Didn’t matter what JC himself was quoted as saying. What mattered was the emperor’s imperial ambitions.
So Christian doctrine was established, in no small part, by a Roman emperor who couldn’t care less about spiritual truth. Kavi has inherited that legacy and is being a good little soldier. Constantine would approve.
Friends,
Let us remember that the source of the Basar of Yeshua came solely from the Tanakh as fulfilled by Elohim and as witnessed by the Jews– it is the Yehudim who proselytized the Gentiles of this Basar, not the other way around :)
And why do these true Mashiachim [Jew and Gentile] hold steadfastly to the consistent message of Moses and the Prophets?
It is because we have Faith in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob– an Elohim who keeps His promises! :)
Elohim loved mankind so much that He paid a very great price to redeem us from our sins– His promised New Covenant is “The Way” of Faith in L-rd Yeshua for forgiveness of sins. [Habakkuk 2:4]
Once receiving Elohim’s promise of the “sure mercies of David” [Psalm 32]– how can we turn away from that kind of enduring love?
_______________________________________
Yehuda,
[**] Daniel 7
We have both laid out our cases– the congregation can review this blog and make their own judgments.
[**] Daniel 9
Promises and Fulfillments:
****Daniel 9:24 Promises
[A] terminate the transgression and bring eternal righteousness,
[B] seal sin, the vision, and prophet,
[C] atone for iniquity and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
****Daniel 9:24 Promises Fulfilled
[A] For those who have Emunah in L-rd Yeshua as their Redeemer– they receive forgiveness of their sin and experience eternal righteousness as promised according to the “sure mercies of David” [Psalm 32]
[B] G-d set His seal upon the Prophet and Anointed One, Yeshua. Only He could seal the New Covenant by His blood and seal the vision first spoken by G-d in the Garden of Eden. [Genesis 3, Exodus 24, Deuteronomy 18]
[C] L-rd Yeshua entered the Holy of Holies to atone for iniquity [Exodus 25, Exodus 26, Leviticus 16]
Note: The last item can be further reviewed by reading the Book of Hebrews 8:1 thru 9:15
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Gene, Jim, and Yehuda,
Like Rashi, I do not find fault that you hold to your viewpoint– even if I do not find consistency with Moses and the Prophets, your ideas are very consistent with the rabbinate’s concept of Elohim’s “plurality of majesty.”
However, will Zechariah 11 remain a mystery forever to the rabbis?
Will the entire Tanakh only become “a little here, a little there” [Isaiah 28]?
Will the mysteries of the One who is the “Rejected Cornerstone” and “Stone of Stumbling” be hidden from the congregation? [Isaiah 8, Isaiah 28]
Does Isaiah speak to the wind when he says,
“Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
but they would not listen.” [Isaiah 28:11-12]
Isaiah does not speak to no avail, but vibrantly speaks even today– for L-rd Yeshua is HaMashiach to both Jews and Gentiles [those of “strange tongues”] who have found their “resting place” in Elohim’s promise of redemption through Emunah in Him.
________________________________________
Now, is anyone ready for a challenge?
Let us examine whether someone can prove that Elohim does NOT exist in “unified plurality” from Genesis 1 and Exodus 24 and Deuteronomy 6 and Zechariah 14:
“Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness”
and
“Hear, O Israel: The L-RD our God, the L-RD is One [Echad]”
and
“Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky.”
and
“Then the L-RD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.”
Reminders>
[] HaShem will not share His glory with another
[] Mankind’s physical body and spiritual being was originally “formed” after G-d’s likeness
[] G-d made Himself visible and visited mankind in the past and also will in the future
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Now Kavi is on rapid fire mode. Fortunately, I’ve dealt with all of this flack before…
First, lets address the New Covenant of Jeremiah and how your jeezer’s death/blood has nothing to do with it.
Going straight to the source, lets go to Jeremiah 31:30
“30. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the **house of Israel and with the house of Judah,** a new covenant.
31. Not like the covenant that I formed with **their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt,** that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.
32. For this is the covenant that I will form **with the house of Israel** after those days, says the Lord: I will place **My law** in their midst and **I will inscribe it upon their hearts,** and I will be their God and they shall be My people.
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.”
The passage says that the New Covenant will be made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. This says nothing about the gentiles. I am aware that the NT attempts to reconcile this by saying that the gentiles were “grafted in” via Jesus. However, Jeremiah 31:31 explicitly states “Not like the covenant that I formed with **THEIR FOREFATHERS** on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the **LAND OF EGYPT,** that they broke my covenant.” This New Covenant will not be with the gentiles because G-d did not make a covenant with the forefathers of the gentiles. Thus, this New Covenant will be made only with people who are under the Mosaic covenant. (The Jewish people.)
Verse 32 says ” I will place **My law** in their midst and **I will inscribe it upon their hearts,** What does it mean for G-d to inscribe His law upon the hearts of the house of Israel? This is explained in verse 33.
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
The primary difference between the Mosiac Covenant and the New Covenant is that *G-d Himself* will put the law on all of the hearts of the House of Israel so that we will not have to TEACH the law to each other. You see, under the Mosaic covenant, we are required to teach the law to each other. I believe Deuteronomy 6:6-7 demonstrates this most clearly.
Deut 6:6. And these words, which I command you this day, **shall be upon your heart.**
Deut 6:7. **And you shall TEACH** them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.”
It is important to note that even the Mosaic covenant was a covenant of the heart. The New Covenant is not different from the Mosaic covenant in this respect. Rather, as Jeremiah 31:33 explains, what makes the New Covenant “new” is the mode of transmission: G-d Himself will put the law directly on our hearts so that we will not have to TEACH the law to each other. This is a future prophesy that has not come to fruition yet. Deut 30:1-6 echoes this idea:
Deut 30:1. And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you,
Deut 30:2. and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children,
Deut 30:3. then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you.
Deut 30:4. Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there.
Deut 30:5. And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers.
Deut 30:6. And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life.
As you can see by verse 4, this passage refers to the redemption after the final exile. Also, note that G-d says in verse 6 that He will “circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring.” Ezekiel 36:24-28 conveys the same idea.This is precisely what Jeremiah was saying in Jeremiah 31:33!
Jeremiah 31:33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord,
This is in contrast to the Mosiac Covenant, which is discussed in Deut 6:6-7, where G-d instructs Israel to TEACH the Law to our offspring.
Deut 6:6. And these words, which I command you this day, **shall be upon your heart.**
Deut 6:7. **And you shall TEACH** them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
The very fact that we are having this debate right now is a testament to the fact that the New Covenant has not been made with anyone. You wouldn’t have to teach me and I wouldn’t have to teach you. (Jeremiah 31:33, Deut 30:6) It is a future covenant which has nothing to do with the death of jesus.
Shalom and G-d bless!
Also Kavi, time to deal with your “blood” position on jesus…Your assertion that Israel cannot atone for sin without “jesus blood/death” couldn’t be farther from the truth…Nowhere in the Tanach does it even hint that “jesus blood/death” is needed for Israel to receive forgiveness of sin from Hashem.
Leviticus 17:11 states that blood animal sacrifice is one way to atone for sin. However, it does not state that blood sacrifice is the only way to atone for sin…(also, note that “jesus blood” is also not mentioned here…Only animal blood!)
The prophet Daniel stood righteous before Hashem without a Temple. He didn’t need “jesus blood” or jesus in any fashion on order to stand righteous before Hashem.
Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
You see, Daniel received forgiveness for his sins INDEPENDENT of jesus during the first exile. He did this by praying and sincerely repenting before Hashem. Daniel 6:11 states that he even did this in the face of death! Clearly, Daniel knew that his sincere repentance to Hashem brought him back to righteousness.
He was simply following the words of Jeremiah!
The context of Jeremiah 29 concerns what G-d expects of us during the exile in order to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Consider what is said in Jeremiah 29:12-14
Jeremiah 29:12. And you shall call Me and go and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you.
Jeremiah 29:13. And you will seek Me and find [Me] for you will seek Me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.
G-d expected that the Israelites would pray to Him while in Babylon. The result of their prayers and repentance allowed them to return to the land and rebuild the Holy Temple.
This is precisely what Daniel did…
And this is precisely what Orthodox Jews do today! Hosea gives us a similar message:
Hosea 3:4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.
Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel RETURN, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.
How do we return to Hashem if we do not have any sacrifices? Hosea tells us in Hosea 14:2-3!
Hosea 14:2. RETURN, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.
Clearly, the subject of the next verse explains HOW Israel is supposed to RETURN to Hashem so that OUR INIQUITIES WILL BE FORGIVEN. Of course, the next verse explains just that!
Hosea 14:3 Take WORDS with yourselves and RETURN TO THE LORD. Say, “YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.
Even though we have stumbled in our iniquity and have been put into exile, we still have a means of returning to Hashem though our sincere PRAYERS. We take our words and return to Hashem by saying; “FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY.” Nothing in Hosea 14:2-3 indicates that we need the blood of animals in order to atone for our sins during the exile. And most importantly, NOTHING in Hosea 14:2-3 says we need the blood of jesus!
This is why Daniel was able to stand righteous before Hashem, praying three times a day, despite the fact that he knew he would be thrown into a pit of lions if he continued to do so. Yet he continued to do so in the face of death! (Daniel 6:11)
The Torah itself also gives us instructions as to what to do if we are in exile and we have no means of giving sacrifices in the Temple or Mishkan. Leviticus 26:38-43 elaborates:
Leviticus 26:38 You will become lost among the nations, and the land of your enemies will consume you.
Leviticus 26:39 And because of their iniquity, those of you who survive will rot away in the lands of your enemies; moreover, they will rot away because the iniquities of their fathers are still within them
Leviticus 26:40 **THEY WILL CONFESS THEIR INIQUITY and the iniquity of their fathers** their betrayal that they dealt Me, and that they also treated Me as happenstance.
Leviticus 26:41 Then I too, will treat them as happenstance and bring them [back while] in the land of their enemies. If then, their clogged heart becomes humbled, then, [their sufferings] will gain appeasement for their iniquity,
Leviticus 26:42 and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob, and also My covenant [with] Isaac, and also My covenant [with] Abraham I will remember. And I will remember the Land,
Leviticus 26:43[For] the Land will be bereft of them, appeasing its sabbaticals when it had been desolate of them, **AND THEY WILL GAIN APPEASEMENT FOR THEIR INIQUITY.** This was all in retribution for their having despised My ordinances and in retribution for their having rejected My statutes.
We know that the prophet Daniel confessed his iniquity and the iniquity of his forefathers multiple times during the exile according to the Book of Daniel. And just as Leviticus 26:38-43 explains, Israel was gathered back to the land by Hashem.
If the Jewish people did not need “jesus blood/death” to merit going back to the land of Israel and the rebuilding of the Holy Temple during the first exile, then why would we need it now?!
We don’t!
Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. It erroneously claims that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.”
lets take a look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…
II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.
II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.
II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for *Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, *”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**
II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”
II Chronicles 30:20. *And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.*
The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE *BLOOD* AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?
According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:
II Chronicles 30:18 *Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, *”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**
II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”
II Chronicles 30:20. *And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.*
The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER! Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…
And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5
Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were *HEALED.*
The Hebrew word נִרְפָּא is used in verse Isaiah 53:5 for the word “healed.” This shares the SAME ROOT with יִּרְפָּא as shown above. In both cases, (Isaiah 53:5 and II Chronicles 30:20) a form of the word רְפָּא is used for the word “healed.”
Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…
II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:
II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”
Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!
Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.
This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.
May Israel merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple and the reinstatement of the Levitical sacrificial system through our sincere prayer and repentance, speedily in our days!
Shalom
No Kavi. You are not going to run us — me, at least — in circles. Senseless, foolish, OCD circles. Instead, here are the facts:
[**] Jesus was neither a messiah nor the manifestation of God. This has been shown conclusively.
[**] The Gospels are 90% fiction and the rest of the NT writings contain many dozens of errors and lies. This has been proven multiple times.
[**] Those who believe in and worship Yeshua are idolators according to the definition by God Himself. Any Jew who turns to belief in Yeshua will receive the spiritual consequences reserved for Jewish idolators by God. This stated clearly in Torah and has been shown to be true in our own times.
[**] The Yeshua myth was taken to the gentiles by Paul, who had hallucinations and was a megalomaniac. Paul was not a Jewish authority. He did not even understand Hebrew. Paul developed an entirely new theology and illegitimately used the Tanakh to give his new religion a sense of authority for the Roman empire, which would otherwise not take his radical (read, “crazy”) ideas seriously. Paul hijacked Judaism. Many studies have shown these statements to be factual.
[**] Christianity is not Jewish, it is not Judaism extended, the Gospels were not written by Jews — and certainly not by eye witnesses — and the NT has no real legitimacy. All of our discussions here as well as scholarly studies have proven this fact.
[**] You are living in a dream world. You have proven this fact.
Shalom.
And I would like to directly address your “challenge,” Kavi. Your challenge is refuted by the singular fact that Deuteronomy 4:9-19 tells us not to worship G-d in ANY FORM. Your arguments are derived from your eisegesis of passages that you are misunderstanding, or at worst, contextually abusing. To show you an example of your misunderstanding, (or contextual abuse,) I will focus attention on your reference of Exodus 24:9-10. But first, I want to review what is spoken of concerning Moses as a UNIQUE PROPHET in Numbers 12:6-8
G-d speaks to Aaron and Miriam in Numbers 12:6-8 concerning what makes Moses different from all other prophets, **INCLUDING AARON** (This is the key) The context of Numbers 12 involves G-d speaking to Aaron and Miriam. Lets start at verse 5:
Numbers 12:5 The Lord descended in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the Tent. He called to Aaron and Miriam, and they both went out.
Numbers 12:6. He said, “Please listen to My words. If there be prophets among you, [I] the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream.
Numbers 12:7. Not so is My servant Moses; he is faithful throughout My house.
Numbers 12:8. With him I speak mouth to mouth; in a vision and not in riddles, and he beholds the image of the Lord. So why were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses ?
Moses is a UNIQUE prophet in that he is the ONLY PROPHET who “beholds the image of the Lord.” We can debate on what that means, but one thing is clear: MOSES IS THE ONLY PROPHET CAPABLE OF THIS ABILITY!
Aaron is not! With this fact in mind, lets read Exodus 24:9-10
Exodus 24:9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
Exodus 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
So this verse says that Aaron “saw” the G-d of Israel…BUT WAIT! What did G-d tell Aaron in Numbers 12:6-8? ONLY MOSES CAN BEHOLD THE IMAGE OF G-D! And what’s more, the word “temunah” (image) is NOT used to in Exodus 24:10, concerning Aaron and his sons “seeing” G-d. Clearly, they did NOT literally perceive a “form” of G-d. G-d is clearly not to be worshiped by Israel IN ANY FORM! And now we come full circle to Deuteronomy 4:9-19
So Kavi, you have two choices: You can either acknowledge G-d’s explicit command to Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM, or you can continue to wallow in your stubborn ignorance and insist that your jeezer is the “sole exception” to this prohibition, based off of absolutely nothing but your contextual abuse of the Tanach using verses that mention NOTHING of your jeezer.
So your entire argument is based upon eisegesis and your own personal bias of your heart. My argument is based upon G-d explicit commands to Israel in the Torah itself.
For you, Kavi, this scripture was written with you in mind. Let me direct your attention to Deuteronomy 29:17-19
Deuteronomy 29:17 Perhaps there is among you a man, woman, family, or tribe, whose heart strays this day from the Lord, our God, to go and worship the deities of those nations. Perhaps there is among you a root that produces hemlock and wormwood.
Deuteronomy 29:18 And it will be, when he [such a person] hears the words of this oath, that he will bless himself in his heart, saying, “I will have peace, even if I follow my heart’s desires,” in order to add the [punishment for the] unintentional sins [of this man] to that of [his] intentional sins.
Deuteronomy 29:19 The Lord will not be willing to forgive him; rather, then, the Lord’s fury and His zeal will fume against that man, and the entire curse written in this book will rest upon him, and the Lord will obliterate his name from beneath the heavens.
This is you, Kavi. You are following and worshipping the deity of other nations. Your jeezer is not G-d. Your jeezer was not present at Sinai when G-d spoke to Israel. And most importantly, your jeezer did not create the universe.
There’s a VERY GOOD reason why the vast majority of Jews today reject your jeezer and have rejected him for over two millennia. You want to turn this into a “who is the most despised contest” by quoting a vague scripture concerning the rejection of the corner stone…A common asinine tactic used by christians, such as yourself and the writers at the Rosh Pina blog.
So I will give you a challenge, Kavi…One which I gave you before and you have since failed to deliver on:
Kavi, can you show me anywhere in the Tanach where Israel is commanded to acknowledge “yeshua” as a deity? Can you show me where Moses tells us to acknowledge “yeshua” as a deity? Can you show me in the prophets where it tells us to acknowledge “yeshua” as a diety?
No?
That’s what I thought…
So perhaps it is your “mashiachim” religion that was a new invention, contrary to the will of Hashem according to His Tanach…
It’s clear to everyone else that this is the case. Hashem NEVER tells us to acknowledge “yeshua” as a deity in the Tanach anywhere!
Thank you for showing us the falsehood of your “mashiachim” religion. Your jesus is not a deity according to the Tanach.
Shalom
Deaf ears, Yehuda, falling on deaf ears..
I would like to even more evidence that refutes Heb 9:22. But to be clear, this is not addressed to Kavi. This is for our own discussions and for the sake of other readers who may, quite miraculously, have had the patience of Job to have followed this thread this far. I suspect we have only three..
Not only do the examples you gave contradict Hebrews 9:22 — “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”– but there is more.
If we look at chapter 5 of Leviticus, we find a “graduated scale” of sin sacrifices designed to provide atonement for those who are so poor that they cannot afford a blood sacrifice.
Certain types of sins are categorized in 5:1-5. In verse 6 we see the usual sin sacrifice — a lamb or goat. But now the graduated scale begins. 5:7 says that if the person cannot afford to sacrifice a lamb or goat, he may sacrifice two birds instead, and the blood of one atones as a sin sacrifice and the other serves as a burnt offering.
But suppose the person is so poor that he cannot even sacrifice two birds. They may be needed for food for his family that week. It happens. Yet God in His mercy and forgiveness provides atonement even for that poor soul:
“But if his means suffice not for two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he shall bring his offering for that wherein he hath sinned, the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin-offering…. And he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as the memorial-part thereof, and make it smoke on the altar, upon the offerings of the LORD made by fire; it is a sin-offering. (Lev 5:11, 12)
Concluding with:
“And the priest shall make atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in any of these things, and he shall be forgiven (Lev 5:13)
===>”and he shall be forgiven”. Atonement without blood! <===
[*] Saadia Gaon ties Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 9:9 to a “single” Messiah, not a plural Israel.
Why do you think Zechariah 9:9 talks about Jesus? Please explain or else your new testament is not inspire. Is Jesus coming vicrorious? Is Jesus a king? Is Jesus coming from a war? Is Jesus coming on one or two donkey?
Well, the challenge was for someone to prove that Elohim cannot exist in “unified plurality”– since no one has been able to accomplish this feat, we can now say with certainty that:
[**] Elohim has a “form”
[**] Elohim can exist in “unified plurality”
_____________________________________
Kavi, your entire “challenge” is a strawman argument to the topic of whether or not worshipping jesus is considered idolatry. Why? Because you are asking the wrong questions.
It doesn’t matter whether or not G-d theoretically “has” a form. What matters is what G-d tells us to do concerning our worship of Him.
To demonstrate the irrelevance of your “challenge,” I will ask you this question:
COULD G-d take on the form of a golden calf? Why or why not?
See the problem?
The question you need to be asking is WOULD G-d take on the form of a man…That answer is no. How do I know this? G-d explicitly tells us so! Here are the facts:
1. G-d explicitly prohibits the worship of ANY FORM. This is not exclusive to “man made forms,” as the worship of the moon the sun and the stars are considered idolatry, despite the fact that these are not “man made forms.” It does not matter if you want to whine about your jeezer being an ‘uncreated form.’ (Which you have no way of proving…All you can do is make a baseless assertion that your jeezer is an ‘uncreated form’…) A form is a form is a form and your jeezer is disqualified from being Hashem based off of the fact that your jeezer was a form. Deuteronomy 4:9-19 wasn’t a “one time deal.” It was meant for Israel to teach to future generations, as it explicitly states. G-d is explicit that He prohibits the worship of ANY FORM, and for you to insist that G-d “took on the form of the jeezer” would make G-d out to be a liar. Deuteronomy 4:9-19 is essentially a promise to Israel that G-d will never reveal Himself to us in any form. If your jeezer is an exception to this promise, then G-d lied…We know G-d does not lie, (Numbers 23:19) so your jeezer cannot be “Hashem in the flesh.”
2. The Tanach NEVER instructs anyone to worship jesus in any fashion.
The question you should be asking me is “WOULD G-d take on the form of a man?” Whether or not G-d “can” do such and such is an irrelevant question…
To which appropriate response is, WOULD G-d take on the form of a golden calf?
We know that G-d WOULD never manifest Himself in the form of a golden calf us. By the same token, He made it clear that He will not appear in the form of a man to us. Deut 4:9-19 was not a “one time deal.” It was a commandment for all generations! It was also not limited to “man made forms.” It extends to “any form,” including the form of a man.
G-d’s explicit commands to Israel concerning how we are to worship Him override any eisegetical assumptions you make about G-d supposedly “having a form” or “existing in a unified plurality.”
And yes, for the record, G-d never commands us to worship your jeezer in any fashion.
You take the jeezer…I’ll take Hashem!
Yehuda,
Yes, I do admit that the deck was stacked– we both know that Elohim has a “form” and that there is no way to prove that Elohim can’t exist in “unified plurality.”
But my point was that many will not accept even these concepts– so, before going on to discuss thoughts on worship, I would like wait and see if anyone else wants to comment.
Shalom
_________________________
Alright Kavi, to demonstrate the irrelevance of your “challenge,” I will ask you this simple question:
1. Can G-d assume the form of a golden calf?
Yes or no?
Why?
Shalom
I’m not taking the bait… Go ahead and answer his question, Kavi.
Let’s use Jesus approach to answer tricky stawman arguments :
And Remi answered and said to Kavi, I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell me, I in like wise will also answer your question.
If G-d can do anything, can he then forgive sin without a human sacrifice?
“And Kavi couldn’t answer the question, for he was afraid”.
And Kavi discussed with himself and said, “If we (plural majesty?) say, ‘He cannot forgive sins,’ he will ask, ‘What about Ezekiel 18, for they all hold that Ezekiel was a prophet.?’ But if we say, ‘He can forgive sin’–then he will say ‘He can have a body, but we do not need your Jesus sacrifice’ .” So he answered Remi, “We (maybe Kavi’s a trinity?) don’t know.” Then he said, “Neither will I tell you if has a body.”
lol
And Jesus said to them, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
But Pharisees wanted to test Jesus and they said unto him, “Did not King Hezekiah broke up into pieces this brazen serpent, for the Israelites began to worship it as god, burning incense onto it. Is this not why you likened yourself onto the serpent, for you will be likewise destroyed for causing many to commit idolatry?”
And Jesus, perceiving that the Pharisees bested him, could say nothing. He departed from their presence, going instead into villages to seek out the ignorant and illiterate.
LOL!
That’s it! We have the beginnings of our own gospel!
I brought up the whole brass serpent thing a couple years ago when I was discussion this on Dr. Michael Brown’s blog. Dr. Michael Brown was encouraging me to check out Itzhak Shapira’s joke of a book, “The Return of the Kosher Pig.” I responded with this:
Dr. Brown, I find it amazing that you are using the works of Mr. Shapira to back your arguments! Here is a quote from Mr. Shapira from one of his youtube lectures entitled “Return of the Kosher Pig: Public Lecture in Canada Part 1.” In the video at 1 hour and 22 minutes into the recording, Mr. Shapira discusses the “brass serpent” that Moses made to heal the Israelites in the desert. (Numbers 21:8-9) Here is the quote:
“What happened to the people who looked at the serpent of brass? Wait a second? The Torah says in Deuteronomy 17:3 not to make an image! It appears that there is a direct violation of the Torah because they looked at the nachash! And they lived. There are two options on the table. Either the Torah is not true, which I choose not to believe, or they look at the image of the nachash and looked truly at Hashem.”
Here, Mr. Shapira is proposing that G-d put Himself into the image of a serpent. Do you agree with Mr. Shapira Dr. Brown? If so, can you explain to me why King Hezekiah was considered righteous for DESTROYING the brass serpent in II Kings 18? II Kings 18:3. And he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, like all that his father David had done. II Kings 18:4. He abolished the high places, and smashed the monuments, and cut down the asherah, and **CRUSHED THE BRASS SERPENT THAT MOSES HAD MADE,** for until those days the children of Israel were burning incense to it; and he called it Nehushtan.
Dr. Brown, I’m very curious to know if you agree with Mr. Shapira on this matter, being as you are endorsing his works. Did G-d manifest himself in the form of a serpent according to your opinion? Mr. Shapira sure thinks so! – See more at: http://askdrbrown.org/interaction-with-a-counter-missionary-rabbi-about-the-cross-and-the-incarnation/#sthash.dHZtu5ML.dpuf
(Shortly afterwards, Dr. Brown took down a video of himself endorsing Shapira’s book…)
Yehuda, as long as the snake hold on a cross (AKA tree, not to offend possible Jewish convert) it is fine…
Yehuda, I read the entire Dr. Brown post and about halfway down all the commentaries. Very interesting. It seems there is no end to this mishegas. It truly can be endless. BTW, the person BJ, who made endless, circular, poorly-informed comments reminds me of someone…
Shalom,
Returning to the discussion, I agree with Yehuda that mankind should not make gods for themselves.
So, to summarize the concepts so far:
[*] Elohim has a “form”
[*] Elohim can exist in “unified plurality”
[*] Elohim prohibits mankind from worshipping anything or anyone besides Himself because,
“For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a zealous God.”
The fourth concept may leave more room for intense ‘interest’, so to speak.
I can see you want to go in circles again Kavi, but it seems to me we’ve covered everything you’re capable of discussing. I recommend you sit down in front of the TV with a bowl of popcorn and a Coke, and watch a good, intense movie for your entertainment! Let’s not dominate this blog, and give some others an opportunity to step in at some point.
Shalom!
Yes, Kavi’s evasion of my question directed at him isn’t surprising in the slightest…He has no answer, so he just ignores the question and repeats himself like a broken record…
To correct your summary of erroneous concepts:
1. We don’t know whether or not G-d “has” a visible form or not. The only person who could possible tell us would be Moses, as G-d explains to Aaron and Miriam in Numbers 12:5-8 that Moses is a unique prophet in that he beholds the “temunah” (image) of the Lord. We can debate as to what that truly means, but one thing is certain: Only Moses has this ability to experience this phenomenon. Moses never described what he supposedly “saw” and he never acknowledged G-d as some sort of “son/man” that he saw somewhere, so you really have no case for your jeezer being G-d, even if G-d theoretically “has” a visible form…(Only Moses knows whether or not He truly does…)
2. You say that G-d “can” exist in a “unified plurality.” Great. Does that mean that you believe that G-d “can” exist as a golden calf? Why don’t you try answering my question directly instead of trying to cake on more lipstick on a pig…Also, your jeezer is never mentioned as as being a part of said supposed “unified plurality” or even mentioned in the Tanach at all in any sort of way that instructs our worship of him as “the son” or whatever you consider your jeezer to be…
3. Yes, G-d forbids the worship of anything or anyone besides Himself. However, G-d makes it clear that He WILL NOT reveal Himself to Israel in ANY FORM. That is why Deuteronomy 4:9-19 emphasizes the fact that Israel SAW NO FORM at Horeb, and that we are to teach what we saw at Horeb to our children so that we DO NOT WORSHIP ANY FORM. So if some guy…Let’s say his name is…Oh…I don’t know…uhhhhh…jeezer! Yeah let’s say there’s this guy named “jeezer” and he claims that he is the G-d who created the universe…In light of Deuteronomy 4:9-19, this “jeezer” character cannot be G-d because we know that G-d commanded Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM including the form of a man! Thus, the very fact that we are able to perceive this “jeezer” character as the form of a man, utterly disqualifies him from being G-d. Numbers 23:19 says that G-d does not lie. If G-d truly was the jeezer, then G-d lied to Israel in Deuteronomy 4:9-19 when He instructed Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM.
But fortunately for us, G-d is not a liar, and the jeezer isn’t G-d.
It’s time you threw in the towel on this one Kavi…If you’re not even going to do me the courtesy of answering my question, then perhaps you should recognize why you are ignoring it…You know that answering my question will cause you to reconsider your foundation of your belief in the jeezer.
But I’ll give you another chance to answer, Kavi… Here is my question for you:
Can G-d assume the form of a golden calf?
Yes or no?
Why?
Shalom
So, to summarize the concepts so far:
[*] Elohim has NO “form”, He is omnipresent, if he is everywhere, that means He is not limited by space, thus He does not have a from (the Bible, Yehuda, Jim and Gene agree with me) Deut 4:15-18
[*] Elohim can not exist in “unified plurality” ( the Bible, Yehuda, Jim and Gene agree with me) Deut 6:14, Isaiah 45:5
[*] Elohim prohibits mankind from worshipping anything or anyone besides Himself because, Deut 4
[*] Elohim prohibits mankind from worshipping any objects, hosts, man, created being, stars, pictures of Him etc. ( the Bible, Yehuda, Jim and Gene agree with me)
The fourth concept may leave more room for intense ‘interest’, so to speak.
And Kavi, please stop repeating the same things, there are no sound basis for your point of view. If you want to have a discussion, please interact with us, do not repeat the same concept over and over without acknowledging our objections. This is a futile conversation and you won’t win anything for people who will come to see this website. I think that there are serious objections for your belief raised by us. Ignoring those concerns and throwing your “facts” does not make sense. I know you believe that the “holy spirit” has to open our eyes, but seriously, that’s a lame excuse that works only for those who have been thought to believe in Jesus. Satan has not blinded anybody, your belief is contrary to the Tanakh, the only real Bible. You would have to have valid argument to prove that your worship of Jesus is endorse throughout the Bible for us to believe it is acceptable to worship a man. If the prophecies would point to Jesus, maybe we could start considering that Jesus is the messiah. But anybody that looks at the claims of the NT with honesty will realize that they are taken out of context. The Bible forbids the worship of a man. God said He is not a man, and anybody that does not fulfil any prophecy can claim he is god. Nebuchadnezzar did it, Antiochus Epiphanes did it too, Jonestown did it and many more. That does not make it true. Finally, the NT put the law as a curse, and that is totally contrary to the Tanakh. The fact that everything is allegorised in the NT, and change in the priesthood and so many other things that are totally contrary and new in the NT makes it impossible for somebody that checked the claims with open eyes (Trying to please HaShem, not Jesus) believe in Jesus.
Shalom!
It has been asked whether Elohim may exist in a form of a golden calf– the answer is, “NO!”
[**] Elohim made mankind in His own image– therefore He always will show Himself in a like manner [for example]:
— Genesis 18
— Exodus 24
— 1 Kings 22
— Daniel 7
— Ezekiel 1
— Zechariah 14
__________________________
“therefore He always will show Himself in a like manner”
No, according to Christian belief The Angel of the Lord is G-d himself.
The burning bush talked to Moses:
Exodus 3:4 “God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!””
Would you worship a tree?
Kavi you should read this:
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2013/11/17/horaces-tree-by-jim/
Remi,
Shalom Alechem! Grace and blessings from God the Father, via ME, to you with scales over your eyes:
Now, we have just heard this stated FACT:
“Elohim made mankind in His own image– therefore He always will show Himself in a like manner”
I realize that Moses said at Sinai, “You saw no form.”, but that doesn’t count.
————————–
I think that since we disagree on some of the issues you raised, which I have chosen to completely ignore, we can conclusively state the following facts:
[*%$&*] (Sorry. That was me cussing)
[*$^&^*&*^%] The New Testament completely supersedes the Old Testament. This is why it is called “New”. And yours is “old”. Duh.
[$#%&%&%*} We, who have spiritual eyes open, know that Yeshua HaHaMoschiachhh is God because John said so. Okay?
[$#%*^(*^*%&$(&] (I’m just trying to make the point that I’m making certain points. And I love lists and those bracket-thingies.)
[*^&$^$&%^(&)*_&(^*%] God can do whatever He wants. Therefore, the next direct inductive of this fact is that Yeshua HaHaMoschiachhh is God. In Heaven. In fact, he’s still up there. Maybe he’s enjoying all that cheese with thousands of loaves of bread and fish on the Dark Side of The Moon, I don’t know precisely. But he’s up there, waiting for just the right time for his Second Coming.
The fifth point might be of more intense interest, but I think the fourth point has the most meaning.
Shalom,
Kavi
Kavi, so when G-d explicitly forbids the worship of the form of a MAN in Deuteronomy 4:16, G-d was lying to us? Here is how you wish us to read Deuteronomy 4:16
Kavionomy4:16 Lest you become corrupt and make yourself a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female, *EXCEPT FOR MY SON “yeshua” WHO IS ALSO ME IN THE FLESH. YOU MUST WORSHIP THAT MAN AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR AND MESSIAH IN THE FUTURE WHEN he COMES. IN FACT, JUST FORGET ABOUT TEACHING YOUR CHILDREN ABOUT HOW YOU SAW NO FORM AT SINAI BECAUSE I AM ACTUALLY A MAN NAMED yeshua!*
Kavi, if you truly loved Hashem, then you would listen to His explicit command not to worship Him in ANY FORM. It is very clear that you do not care what Hashem has to say concerning how He wishes us to worship Him.
We have already shown you that Genesis 18 refers to an angel and not your jeezer.
We have already shown you that Exodus 24 does not refer to anyone “seeing” G-d. I’ll post it for you again:
To show you an example of your misunderstanding, (or contextual abuse,) I will focus attention on your reference of Exodus 24:9-10. But first, I want to review what is spoken of concerning Moses as a UNIQUE PROPHET in Numbers 12:6-8
G-d speaks to Aaron and Miriam in Numbers 12:6-8 concerning what makes Moses different from all other prophets, **INCLUDING AARON** (This is the key) The context of Numbers 12 involves G-d speaking to Aaron and Miriam. Lets start at verse 5:
Numbers 12:5 The Lord descended in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the Tent. He called to Aaron and Miriam, and they both went out.
Numbers 12:6. He said, “Please listen to My words. If there be prophets among you, [I] the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream.
Numbers 12:7. Not so is My servant Moses; he is faithful throughout My house.
Numbers 12:8. With him I speak mouth to mouth; in a vision and not in riddles, and he beholds the image of the Lord. So why were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses ?
Moses is a UNIQUE prophet in that he is the ONLY PROPHET who “beholds the image of the Lord.” We can debate on what that means, but one thing is clear: MOSES IS THE ONLY PROPHET CAPABLE OF THIS ABILITY!
Aaron is not! With this fact in mind, lets read Exodus 24:9-10
Exodus 24:9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
Exodus 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
So this verse says that Aaron “saw” the G-d of Israel…BUT WAIT! What did G-d tell Aaron in
Numbers 12:6-8? ONLY MOSES CAN BEHOLD THE IMAGE OF G-D! And what’s more, the word “temunah” (image) is NOT used to in Exodus 24:10, concerning Aaron and his sons “seeing” G-d. Clearly, they did NOT literally perceive a “form” of G-d. G-d is clearly not to be worshiped by Israel IN ANY FORM! And now we come full circle to Deuteronomy 4:9-19
So Kavi, you have two choices: You can either acknowledge G-d’s explicit command to Israel not to worship Him in ANY FORM, or you can continue to wallow in your stubborn ignorance and insist that your jeezer is the “sole exception” to this prohibition, based off of absolutely nothing but your contextual abuse of the Tanach using verses that mention NOTHING of your jeezer.
So your entire argument is based upon eisegesis and your own personal bias of your heart. My argument is based upon G-d explicit commands to Israel in the Torah itself.
For you, Kavi, this scripture was written with you in mind. Let me direct your attention to
Deuteronomy 29:17-19
Deuteronomy 29:17 Perhaps there is among you a man, woman, family, or tribe, whose heart strays this day from the Lord, our God, to go and worship the deities of those nations. Perhaps there is among you a root that produces hemlock and wormwood.
Deuteronomy 29:18 And it will be, when he [such a person] hears the words of this oath, that he will bless himself in his heart, saying, “I will have peace, even if I follow my heart’s desires,” in order to add the [punishment for the] unintentional sins [of this man] to that of [his] intentional sins.
Deuteronomy 29:19 The Lord will not be willing to forgive him; rather, then, the Lord’s fury and His zeal will fume against that man, and the entire curse written in this book will rest upon him, and the Lord will obliterate his name from beneath the heavens.
This is you, Kavi. You are following and worshipping the deity of other nations. Your jeezer is not G-d. Your jeezer was not present at Sinai when G-d spoke to Israel. And most importantly, your jeezer did not create the universe.
There’s a VERY GOOD reason why the vast majority of Jews today reject your jeezer and have rejected him for over two millennia. You want to turn this into a “who is the most despised contest” by quoting a vague scripture concerning the rejection of the corner stone…A common asinine tactic used by christians, such as yourself and the writers at the Rosh Pina blog.
So I will give you a challenge, Kavi…One which I gave you before and you have since failed to deliver on:
Kavi, can you show me anywhere in the Tanach where Israel is commanded to acknowledge “yeshua” as a deity? Can you show me where Moses tells us to acknowledge “yeshua” as a deity? Can you show me in the prophets where it tells us to acknowledge “yeshua” as a diety?
No?
That’s what I thought…
So perhaps it is your “mashiachim” religion that was a new invention, contrary to the will of Hashem according to His Tanach…
It’s clear to everyone else that this is the case. Hashem NEVER tells us to acknowledge “yeshua” as a deity in the Tanach anywhere!
Thank you for showing us the falsehood of your “mashiachim” religion. Your jesus is not a deity according to the Tanach.
1 Kings 22 doesn’t say anything about your jeezer either…
Daniel 7 says nothing about your jeezer either. You were thoroughly refuted on this. The fact that you cannot accept this makes me wonder if you have some sort of intellectual deficit at this point…Daniel had a DREAM/VISION. His vision was described in Daniel 7:15-28. Nothing refers to your jeezer in that passage. If it were important for your jeezer to be mentioned there as being our “god in the flesh,” the angel wouldn’t have told Daniel that the “one like the son of man who was given the kingdom in Daniel 7:13-14” refers to the giving of the kingdom to the “most holy ones.” This isn’t just the Messiah. This includes multiple people. Thus, you have no case for saying that Daniel 7:27 refers to the worship of a singular person as a god. Rather, it explicitly refers to the giving of a kingdom to multiple people of which all peoples will serve. It has nothing to do with the worship of your jeezer as a god. You were soundly refuted on this, please, kindly SHUT UP ABOUT IT!
Your jeezer FAILED TO FULFILL DANIEL 7:13-14! YOUR JEEZER HAD NO KINGDOM! YOUR JEEZER IS DEAD!
YOUR JEEZER HAD NO KINGDOM. YOUR JEEZER HAS NO KINGDOM. YOUR JEEZER WILL NEVER HAVE A KINGDOM!
DANIEL…7:13-14…HAS…NOTHING….TO…DO…WITH…THE WORSHIP…OR…THE “KINGDOM”…OF YOUR…FALSE…messiah…AKA…”THE JEEZER!”
Ezekiel 1 was a vision. Remember what G-d said to Miriam and Aaron in Numbers 12:5-8? We can debate as to what that truly means, but one thing is certain: Only Moses has this ability to experience this phenomenon. Moses never described what he supposedly “saw” and he never acknowledged G-d as some sort of “son/man” that he saw somewhere, so you really have no case for your jeezer being G-d, even if G-d theoretically “has” a visible form…(Only Moses knows whether or not He truly does…)
So whatever Ezekiel “saw” was a dream/vision. It was not “G-d in the flesh.” It was not your jeezer.
Zechariah 14 doesn’t speak about your jeezer either. Your jeezer is dead and he never had a kingdom and never will have a kingdom.
So please Kavi, kindly stop being a fool and accept G-d’s word.
Deuteronomy 4 ends all argumentation on this issue. Kavi is the fool who denies G-d’s word and explicit command not to worship Him in ANY FORM including man!
Shalom
Shalom!
There was a question raised about Zechariah 9
[**] Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
Ω L-rd Yeshua came into Yerushalayim humbly on a young foal of a donkey
Ω The people honored His entry into Yerushalayim as King
Ω Victorious over satan’s direct and indirect attempts to make Him sin
Ω Completely sinless [righteous]– an unblemished Lamb of G-d
[**] Zechariah 9:10
I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
and the warhorses from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow will be broken.
He will proclaim peace to the nations.
his rule shall be from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Ω The Kingdom of Yeshua will be established not through war, but by Faith in Him
Ω This kingdom of Faith will be to all nations
Ω This kingdom of Faith in Yeshua is spreading across the entire face of the earth
[**] Zechariah 9:11
As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you,
I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.
Ω The new covenant of Faith was made by The Messiah’s voluntary death on behalf of mankind [see also Isaiah 53]
Ω Those who have faith in Yeshua for their righteousness before the Father are cleansed from their sins
_____________________________________
Kavi, Concerning Isaiah 53, in order to determine who the servant is, we need to look at the context. Isaiah 49:3-6 is a good place to start.
Isaiah 49:3. And He said to me, “You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast.”
Isaiah 49:4. And I said, “I toiled in vain, I consumed my strength for nought and vanity.” Yet surely my right is with the Lord, and my deed is with my God.
Isaiah 49:5. And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him, said to bring Jacob back to Him, and Israel shall be gathered to Him, and I will be honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God was my strength.
Isaiah 49:6. And He said, “It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.”
So how is this reconciled? How can Israel bring back Israel? The answer is simple! Isaiah 49:3 refers to a specific part of Israel, namely the righteous remnant. (G-d promised a righteous remnant of Israel throughout all generations.) Verse 5 refers to the remnant bringing back the rest of Israel back to righteousness. And finally, verse 6 refers to the newly restored Israel being “light to the nations” through the revelation of truth through Hashem.
In other words, this is a two step process:
1. The righteous remnant of Israel will bring back the rest of Israel to righteousness. (Isaiah 49:3-5)
2. The newly restored nation of Israel will serve to be a “light to the nations.” (Isaiah 49:6)
So ultimately, the nation of Israel is the servant who will be “a light unto the nations.” However, in order to get to that point, the righteous remnant of Israel will first gather back the rest of Israel back to Torah. It’s a two step process.
The servant is the righteous remnant of ISRAEL.
Isaiah 51:7. Hearken to Me, you who know righteousness, a people that has My Torah in their heart, fear not reproach of man, and from their revilings be not dismayed.
This is yet another verse which highlights the suffering of G-d righteous servant, Israel. Isaiah 54 even refers to the “SERVANTS of the Lord”!
Isaiah 54:17. Any weapon whetted against you shall not succeed, and any tongue that contends with you in judgment, you shall condemn; this is the heritage of the SERVANTS OF THE LORD and their due reward from Me, says the Lord.
Isaiah 52:15 describes the gentiles kings who will shut their mouths because of their astonishment of Israel’s vindication by Hashem:
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.
Micah 7:16-17 echoes this sentiment:
Micah 7:16. Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.
Micah 7:17. They shall lick the dust as a snake, as those who crawl on the earth. They shall quake from their imprisonment; they shall fear the Lord, our God, and they shall fear you.
Also, Isaiah 60:14 speaks of the future Israel who was previously despised by the nations as being vindicated at the end of days, also echoing in line with the suffering/despised servant of Isaiah 53:
Isaiah 60:14And the children of your oppressors shall go to you bent over, and *THOSE WHO DESPISED YOU* shall prostrate themselves at the soles of your feet, and they shall call you ‘the city of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
So there you have it. The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 ultimately is the nation of Israel. Please keep in mind that the Messiah is a part of Israel.
Shalom
Kavi, concerning the New Covenant, lets address the New Covenant of Jeremiah and how your jeezer’s death/blood has nothing to do with it.
Going straight to the source, lets go to Jeremiah 31:30
“30. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the **house of Israel and with the house of Judah,** a new covenant.
31. Not like the covenant that I formed with **their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt,** that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.
32. For this is the covenant that I will form **with the house of Israel** after those days, says the Lord: I will place **My law** in their midst and **I will inscribe it upon their hearts,** and I will be their God and they shall be My people.
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.”
The passage says that the New Covenant will be made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. This says nothing about the gentiles. I am aware that the NT attempts to reconcile this by saying that the gentiles were “grafted in” via Jesus. However, Jeremiah 31:31 explicitly states “Not like the covenant that I formed with **THEIR FOREFATHERS** on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the **LAND OF EGYPT,** that they broke my covenant.” This New Covenant will not be with the gentiles because G-d did not make a covenant with the forefathers of the gentiles. Thus, this New Covenant will be made only with people who are under the Mosaic covenant. (The Jewish people.)
Verse 32 says ” I will place **My law** in their midst and **I will inscribe it upon their hearts,** What does it mean for G-d to inscribe His law upon the hearts of the house of Israel? This is explained in verse 33.
33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
The primary difference between the Mosiac Covenant and the New Covenant is that *G-d Himself* will put the law on all of the hearts of the House of Israel so that we will not have to TEACH the law to each other. You see, under the Mosaic covenant, we are required to teach the law to each other. I believe Deuteronomy 6:6-7 demonstrates this most clearly.
Deut 6:6. And these words, which I command you this day, **shall be upon your heart.**
Deut 6:7. **And you shall TEACH** them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.”
It is important to note that even the Mosaic covenant was a covenant of the heart. The New Covenant is not different from the Mosaic covenant in this respect. Rather, as Jeremiah 31:33 explains, what makes the New Covenant “new” is the mode of transmission: G-d Himself will put the law directly on our hearts so that we will not have to TEACH the law to each other. This is a future prophesy that has not come to fruition yet. Deut 30:1-6 echoes this idea:
Deut 30:1. And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you,
Deut 30:2. and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children,
Deut 30:3. then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you.
Deut 30:4. Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there.
Deut 30:5. And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers.
Deut 30:6. And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life.
As you can see by verse 4, this passage refers to the redemption after the final exile. Also, note that G-d says in verse 6 that He will “circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring.” Ezekiel 36:24-28 conveys the same idea.This is precisely what Jeremiah was saying in Jeremiah 31:33!
Jeremiah 31:33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord,
This is in contrast to the Mosiac Covenant, which is discussed in Deut 6:6-7, where G-d instructs Israel to TEACH the Law to our offspring.
Deut 6:6. And these words, which I command you this day, **shall be upon your heart.**
Deut 6:7. **And you shall TEACH** them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
The very fact that we are having this debate right now is a testament to the fact that the New Covenant has not been made with anyone. You wouldn’t have to teach me and I wouldn’t have to teach you. (Jeremiah 31:33, Deut 30:6) It is a future covenant which has nothing to do with the death of jesus.
Shalom and G-d bless!
(Of course, Kavi will completely ignore this post and ramble on about G-d “having a form,” despite the fact that his jeezer’s enactment of the New Covenant has been completely refuted, thus, invalidating the claims of his NT… But hey…Kavi can dream, can’t he?)
Kavi, you ignored this post before, so I’m posting it again since you brought up the topic again… Time to deal with your “blood” position on jesus…Your assertion that Israel cannot atone for sin without “jesus blood/death” couldn’t be farther from the truth…Nowhere in the Tanach does it even hint that “jesus blood/death” is needed for Israel to receive forgiveness of sin from Hashem.
Leviticus 17:11 states that blood animal sacrifice is one way to atone for sin. However, it does not state that blood sacrifice is the only way to atone for sin…(also, note that “jesus blood” is also not mentioned here…Only animal blood!)
The prophet Daniel stood righteous before Hashem and was SAVED without a Temple. He didn’t need “jesus blood” or jesus in any fashion on order to stand righteous before Hashem.
Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could SAVE only themselves by their RIGHTEOUSNESS, declares the Sovereign LORD.
You see, Daniel received forgiveness for his sins INDEPENDENT of jesus during the first exile. He did this by praying and sincerely repenting before Hashem. Daniel 6:11 states that he even did this in the face of death! Clearly, Daniel knew that his sincere repentance to Hashem brought him back to righteousness.
He was simply following the words of Jeremiah!
The context of Jeremiah 29 concerns what G-d expects of us during the exile in order to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Consider what is said in Jeremiah 29:12-14
Jeremiah 29:12. And you shall call Me and go and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you.
Jeremiah 29:13. And you will seek Me and find [Me] for you will seek Me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.
G-d expected that the Israelites would pray to Him while in Babylon. The result of their prayers and repentance allowed them to return to the land and rebuild the Holy Temple.
This is precisely what Daniel did…
And this is precisely what Orthodox Jews do today! Hosea gives us a similar message:
Hosea 3:4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.
Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel RETURN, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.
How do we return to Hashem if we do not have any sacrifices? Hosea tells us in Hosea 14:2-3!
Hosea 14:2. RETURN, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.
Clearly, the subject of the next verse explains HOW Israel is supposed to RETURN to Hashem so that OUR INIQUITIES WILL BE FORGIVEN. Of course, the next verse explains just that!
Hosea 14:3 Take WORDS with yourselves and RETURN TO THE LORD. Say, “YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.
Even though we have stumbled in our iniquity and have been put into exile, we still have a means of returning to Hashem though our sincere PRAYERS. We take our words and return to Hashem by saying; “FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY.” Nothing in Hosea 14:2-3 indicates that we need the blood of animals in order to atone for our sins during the exile. And most importantly, NOTHING in Hosea 14:2-3 says we need the blood of jesus!
This is why Daniel was able to stand righteous before Hashem, praying three times a day, despite the fact that he knew he would be thrown into a pit of lions if he continued to do so. Yet he continued to do so in the face of death! (Daniel 6:11)
The Torah itself also gives us instructions as to what to do if we are in exile and we have no means of giving sacrifices in the Temple or Mishkan. Leviticus 26:38-43 elaborates:
Leviticus 26:38 You will become lost among the nations, and the land of your enemies will consume you.
Leviticus 26:39 And because of their iniquity, those of you who survive will rot away in the lands of your enemies; moreover, they will rot away because the iniquities of their fathers are still within them
Leviticus 26:40 **THEY WILL CONFESS THEIR INIQUITY and the iniquity of their fathers** their betrayal that they dealt Me, and that they also treated Me as happenstance.
Leviticus 26:41 Then I too, will treat them as happenstance and bring them [back while] in the land of their enemies. If then, their clogged heart becomes humbled, then, [their sufferings] will gain appeasement for their iniquity,
Leviticus 26:42 and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob, and also My covenant [with] Isaac, and also My covenant [with] Abraham I will remember. And I will remember the Land,
Leviticus 26:43[For] the Land will be bereft of them, appeasing its sabbaticals when it had been desolate of them, **AND THEY WILL GAIN APPEASEMENT FOR THEIR INIQUITY.** This was all in retribution for their having despised My ordinances and in retribution for their having rejected My statutes.
We know that the prophet Daniel confessed his iniquity and the iniquity of his forefathers multiple times during the exile according to the Book of Daniel. And just as Leviticus 26:38-43 explains, Israel was gathered back to the land by Hashem.
If the Jewish people did not need “jesus blood/death” to merit going back to the land of Israel and the rebuilding of the Holy Temple during the first exile, then why would we need it now?!
We don’t!
Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. It erroneously claims that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.”
Lets take a look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…
II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.
II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.
II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for *Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, *”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**
II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”
II Chronicles 30:20. *And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.*
The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE *BLOOD* AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?
According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:
II Chronicles 30:18 *Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, *”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**
II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”
II Chronicles 30:20. *And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.*
The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER! Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…
And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5
Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were *HEALED.*
The Hebrew word נִרְפָּא is used in verse Isaiah 53:5 for the word “healed.” This shares the SAME ROOT with יִּרְפָּא as shown above. In both cases, (Isaiah 53:5 and II Chronicles 30:20) a form of the word רְפָּא is used for the word “healed.”
Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…
II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:
II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”
Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!
Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.
This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.
May Israel merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple and the reinstatement of the Levitical sacrificial system through our sincere prayer and repentance, speedily in our days!
(And yes, Kavi will inevitably ignore this post again and ramble on about G-d supposedly “having” a “form” and idiotically apply this supposed “form” to his jeezer and imply that we must worship his idolatrous idea of his god…Sorry Kavi, but your jeezer’s death isn’t the “only way” to atone for sin…Thus, your NT is false and we have no reason to trust its words.)
So keep ignoring reality Kavi…Go ahead…Ignore this post and ramble on about Daniel 7 some more and distort more Rabbinic writings while you’re at it when you realize you have no case for your position using the Tanach…Go ahead…I dare ya!
I posted this on Rabbi Blumenthal’s blog. It describes Kavi to the T…
Here’s the main issue that I have seen with christian excuses for their worship of jesus, despite the fact that Deuteronomy 4:9-19 explicitly states that we are to not worship Hashem in ANY FORM…
What I have seen most commonly is that the christian will insist that Deuteronomy 4:9-19 only refers to “man made forms” that are made of stone, wood, brass, etc. Of course, this would allow for the potential worship of forms that are not made by man, such as the moon, the sun, and the stars, of which G-d explicitly forbids worship of in Deuteronomy 4:19. It would also allow for the potential worship of human beings, such as the prince of Tyre, (In the book of Ezekiel, he claimed to be G-d, just as christians believe about jesus…) Needless to say so the christian position falls flat…
But their next excuse is that their jesus is an “uncreated form that pre-exists creation.” As oxymoronic as it sounds, this is precisely what christian apologists such as Dr. Michael Brown teach to their robotic apologetic minions. But most importantly, the assertion that jesus is an “uncreated form that pre-exists creation” is a completely baseless assertion…Even if jesus did make such a claim, (which is questionable at best…) the claim should be treated in the same way as any other human being who made such a claim, such as the prince of Tyre.
But let’s hypothetically assume that jesus actually was an “uncreated form that pre-exists creation.” (He’s not obviously, but lets entertain the idea for a moment.) This would STILL fall into the category of idolatry for us to worship him, as Deuteronomy 4:9-19 doesn’t make any exceptions for “uncreated forms that pre-exist creation.”
Of course, the next step for the christian is to go on the “great jesus angel hunt” and falsely dub every unnamed angel in the Tanach as a “pre-incarnate jesus angel.” Never mind the fact that jesus never claimed to be any of these angels. Also, never mind the fact that the false book of Hebrews claims in Hebrews 1:6 that ALL THE ANGELS WORSHIP “the son.” (jesus)…That would include “the angel of the Lord.” That means that “the angel of the Lord” and jesus are mutually exclusive, even according to the writer of the book of Hebrews!
And of course, after the christian realizes that they have no support for their “jesus angel theory” in light of the Tanach and even the NT, the christian will accuse the Jew of “limiting G-d” by not entertaining the possibility that G-d “could” assume the form of a man.
But the christian is asking the wrong question and is attempting to make a strawman argument. The issue isn’t about what G-d “can or cannot” do. No…Rather, the issue is about what G-d WILL OR WILL NOT DO.
We can ask the question, “COULD G-d take on the form of a golden calf?”
Answering such a question is irrelevant to the discussion concerning what constitutes idolatry according to G-d Himself. A more appropriate question is this:
“WOULD G-d take on the form of a golden calf?”
In light of Deuteronomy 4:9-19, we can assert that G-d would not and will not take on the form of a golden calf.
We can also ask this question:
“WOULD G-d take on the form of a man?”
In light of Deuteronomy 4:9-19, we can assert that G-d would not and will not take on the form of a man.
Thus, jesus cannot be Hashem, even if he claimed to be…
Shalom
Shalom, my dear Brothers!
It has been said that Yeshuah HaHaMaschiachhh is:
“Ω Completely sinless [righteous]– an unblemished Lamb of G-d” We know this to be a FACT.
[1] Now, even though God Himself commanded:
[2] Which means to show reverence, honor and respect at all times to one’s parents
[3] And although it’s true that Yeshua HaHaMachiachhh broke this commandment, as it is written:
“Now Jesus’ mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not get near him because of the crowd. So he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” But he replied to them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.” (Luke 8:19-21)
[4] It doesn’t matter! All exceptions are made for him! He was still sinless!! The perfect lamb of Hashem!
Shalom (again)
Maybe if Kavi hears it from someone else, maybe it will resonate with him. Here is Rabbi Yisroel Blumenthal saying virtually the same thing I am, albeit in a different manner.
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/tell-them-jeremiah-1011/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/11/13/foundation-of-worship-ii/
https://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/foundation-of-worship-iii/
“Maybe if Kavi hears it from someone else, maybe it will resonate with him.”
No, it won’t.
Ω L-rd Yeshua came into Yerushalayim humbly on a young foal of a donkey
One or two, lets say that I agree he came on a donkey. So as many other people came on a donkey in Jerusalem. No so many came stealing the donkey thought.
Ω The people honored His entry into Yerushalayim as King
Nowhere it say that they horned him as king. Zecheriah talks about a literal king, not a self proclaimed king.
Ω Victorious over satan’s direct and indirect attempts to make Him sin
Zechariah talks about him coming victorious, not that he will be victorious after a few days. And also, nobody can see that victory, it’s an imaginary one.
Ω Completely sinless [righteous]– an unblemished Lamb of G-d
Where is that on Zechariah? As we see a few verses earlier, unblemished, but he stole the donkey? I would guess it’s ok, all the donkeys are his right. Maybe Jesus can sin and it would not be considered a sin, because he can do whatever he wants?
Still does not fit the prophecy in the context…
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/theft
theft
n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker’s use (including potential sale).
According to the legal definition of a theft, Jesus is a thief.
Friends,
We must take care not to misinterpret Numbers 12 and Deuteronomy 4 and Exodus 33
[*] Deuteronomy 4 never says Elohim has no form of any kind– it only states that Yisrael “saw” no form.
[*] Moses saw the back of the Ancient of Days and not His face when hidden in the cleft of the rock [Exodus 33].
— First, the Ancient of Days has a form [that is, a face and a back]
— Second, since the Ancient of Days would not let Moses see His face– With whom did Moses speak and who did Moses see [Numbers 12]?
[*] Temunah
— HaShem uses the word “temunah” to describe Himself when Moses looked upon Him[Numbers 12:8]
— ‘Temunah’ is the same word we find used for idols [Deuteronomy 4]
Since Elohim describes both Himself and idols having ‘temunah’ [form], how can someone say Elohim has “no form of any kind”?
Please explain.
Well boys, you can explain all you want to Kavi, but you know he will continue to peck away at what’s “possible”. As if that means anything. And the “discussion” — if that’s what you want to call it — will go on and on in endless circles. Maybe for months!
The bottom line is that Moshe commanded that generation standing on the other side of the Jordan (and thereby, us) not to worship any gods that they or their fathers had not known or experienced when they were brought out of Egypt, to Sinai and to the promised land. Simple. Done deal.
All the theory in the world about the nature and expression of God is irrelevant. This commandment is clear, it’s irrefutable, it’s the bottom line. None of Kavi’s theories or arguments mean anything in light of this commandment.
I recommend we move on… but that’s just my opinion.
Alright Kavi, let’s go through this for the umpteenth time. You claim this:
“Deuteronomy 4 never says Elohim has no form of any kind– it only states that Yisrael “saw” no form.”
It doesn’t just state that Yisrael “saw no form.” It also says that we are to TEACH what we saw and heard to our children and our children’s children. Lets start at Deut 4:9
Deut 4:9. But beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, *and you shall make them known to your children and to your children’s children,*
Here we see that G-d is commanding Israel to teach these things throughout their generations. G-d is directly telling Israel to TEACH THEIR CHILDREN about the things they SAW and the things on their hearts. What are these things you ask? Lets continue reading:
Deut 4:10. the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, “Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, *and that they may teach their children.*
Deut 4:11. And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness.
Deut 4:12. The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice.
Here we have G-d explaining to the children of Israel what they “saw.” *Notice that what they “saw” was no image according to G-d Himself!*
Then we have the rest of the verses in Deuteronomy 4 leading up to verse 19, which explicitly state that we are not to worship G-d in ANY FORM including man! Deut 4:15-16 is most relevant to this discussion…
Deut 4:15. And you shall watch yourselves very well, *for you did not see any image* on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.
Deut 4:16. Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, *the representation of ANY FORM, the likeness of MALE or female,*
And no, Kavi, this isn’t limited to “man made forms,” so please don’t make yourself look like even more of a fool by trying that shenanigan again. The prince of Tyre’s claim to deity is just as valid is your jeezer’s…Of which neither are valid claims…
Concerning Moses seeing a “form,” what don’t you understand about the fact that Moses is the only prophet who can “see” this “form”? That’s explicitly what Numbers 12:5-8 says. G-d says to Miriam and Aaron that other prophets are spoken to in visions and in dreams…However, Moses is the sole exception. So whatever Moses “saw” in Exodus 33 is something only Moses can experience…Unless you want to call G-d a liar…Numbers 23:19 shows us that G-d is not a liar, so you can either accept the fact that no human being experiences the “image” of G-d with the possible exception of Moses, or you can continue to contextually abuse Exodus 33 and use it as a “proof text” for your jeezer…It’s your call…
You brought the fact that the word “temunah” (image) is used in Deuteronomy 4 to describe what we are not to worship, yet Moses beholds the “temunah” (image) of Hashem according to Numbers 12:6-8. Once again, this paradox is solved by simply understanding that Moses was the only person who could experience the phenomenon of the “image” of G-d. (What that truly means can be debated.) But for you to use Moses’s experience in Exodus 33 and claim “LOOK MOSES SAW A FORM OF G-D! THAT MEANS WE CAN WORSHIP A FORM!” is for you to completely ignore the fact that G-d explicitly forbids the children of Israel from worshipping Him in ANY FORM. There is a reason why G-d singled out Moses as the only prophet who can experience “temunat Hashem” or “the form of G-d.” Whatever that means, only Moses knows. But as far as we are concerned, Deuteronomy 4:9-19 is a promise to Israel that G-d will never reveal Himself to us in any form, and for us to assume otherwise and acknowledge/worship some guy named jeezer who claimed to be “G-d in the flesh,” is a blatant act of idolatry!”
So Kavi, you keep incessantly going on and on about whether or not G-d “has” a form. We have told you time and time again that this is irrelevant to the discussion concerning whether or not we are supposed to worship G-d as a form or not. G-d gave Israel the lack of ability to experience Him as a physical, finite form. Therefore, we are forbidden from worshipping any physical, finite form as a god. This includes your jeezer, who walked the earth as a man, which is a physical finite form. That is the message of Deuteronomy 4:9-19.
Shalom
Jim brought up a good point from Deuteronomy 13-26
Deut 13:2-6 tells us that if a person claiming to be a prophet of G-d performs a miraculous feat, but tells us to worship other gods that we have not know, we are STILL to REJECT THAT PROPHET.
Deut 13:2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
(lets say jesus claims he will be killed and resurrect himself on the third day!)
Deut 13:3. *and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens,* [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,”
(lets say jesus actually is killed and he does resurrect himself on the third day! But he asks us to WORSHIP HIM, despite the fact that the Jewish people were never instructed by Hashem in the Torah to worship jesus.)
Deut 13:4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
(Then we shall NOT heed the words of jesus, because Hashem is TESTING US.)
Deut 13:5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
Deut 13:6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.
The same thing would apply to the prince of Tyre, who also claimed to be G-d.
Deuteronomy 4:9-19 was not simply a “one time deal.” G-d explicitly told Israel that they SAW NO FORM. But G-d didn’t stop there! G-d made sure to emphasize twice that they saw no form, and that they are to teach this to their children and their children’s children…
But G-d didn’t stop there!
He also told Israel that they are not to worship Him in ANY FORM, INCLUDING THE FORM OF A MAN.
But how do you see this, Kavi? Why do you think that G-d would emphasize twice to Israel that they SAW NO FORM, and also emphasize twice to Israel that they are to teach what they heard and what they saw at Horeb to their children and to their children’s children? Why do you think that G-d explicitly prohibited the worship of ANY FORM INCLUDING THE FORM OF A MAN according to Deut 4:15-16?
Would you seriously have us believe that underneath this clear prohibition not to worship Hashem in ANY FORM, that He would actually change his mind and say,
“You know that part in Deuteronomy 4:9-19 where I told you not to worship me in any form? Well guess what?! I lied! I’m actually a *unified plurality* and I have a son named the jeezer who is also me! We’re not the same ‘person,’ but we are both equivalent and he is a non-created form that created you all along with me! And you know when I told you that only Moses could see my form? Well, I lied about that, too! You can all see my son, the jeezer, who is also me in the flesh! About 2000 years ago, I sent him but you killed him and now he’s coming back anytime now! Just believe that he’s me and you’ll have a shot at heaven!…
P.S. Oh and I forgot to tell you guys…Mah jeezer is the only way for you to get to me…After all, we’re both god!”
This is what Kavi has been trying to say all along. Do you honestly think that we are going to swallow G-d being a liar, and revealing himself to Israel in the form of a man, despite the fact that He explicitly forbids us to worship Him in ANY FORM, further telling us to teach this to our children and our children’s children?
Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
This verse has never been so relevant to you Kavi…As you have argued that G-d is both a man and a liar…I suggest you sincerely acknowledge G-d’s prohibition of form worship for Israel in Deuteronomy 4:9-19.
Thank you for staying on topic this time, Kavi.
Shalom
Worse yet, if the NT is right about the jeezer, then it can only mean that when Moshe instructed the people (therefore us too) never to go after any gods they had not known or experienced in the exodus, Hashem was PUPOSEFULLY DECEIVING US so that when He sent Himself we would certainly reject him and go down to Sheol forever! *Evil laugh*
How else can you explain such a thing!?
Friends,
— HaShem states to mankind He has “Temunah” regardless whether Moses was the only one who saw His form ‘directly’ [Numbers 12]
— The elders saw Elohim in the form similar to mankind although not in a ‘direct’ manner as Moses [Exodus 24]
— HaShem states to mankind He has a Face and Back [Exodus 33]
— Elohim states He made mankind in His image [Genesis 1]
Even though mankind is fashioned after Elohim’s “Temunah”, He expects mankind to worship His essential being, not His “Temunah” [Deuteronomy 4]
As the Law requires, Elohim Himself has provided more than two ‘witnesses’ in His Word that He has Temunah [a form], even though mankind is not to worship His form.
__________________________
Rabbi Kavi,
If God had His eternal plan of salvation for “the Jew first and to the Greek”, please explain why Moshe made it clear to the Children of Israel that they (and therefore we) were not to worship any god that they had not personally witnessed saving them from Egypt and bringing them to Sinai and to the promised land? Because those generations knew nothing about Yeshua.
Did Hashem forget to let us know? Or did He purposefully deceive us?
Your explanation, please?
Kavi, Exodus 24 mentions nothing of the men seeing the “temunah” of Hashem. That’s right…The Hebrew word “temunah” (image) is nowhere to be found in Exodus 24:9-11!
This lends credibility to the fact that what Aaron, Nadav, Abihu, and the 70 elders “saw” was not the “image” of Hashem, but rather a vision!
And what does Numbers 12:5-8 say concerning this? It says that ONLY MOSES perceives the “temunah” (image) of Hashem. We can debate about what that means, but we know that only Moses experiences this phenomenon.
So once again, whether or not G-d “has a form” is irrelevant to the discussion concerning whether or not we are to worship G-d as a form.
G-d gave Israel the lack of ability to experience Him as a physical, finite form. Therefore, we are forbidden from worshipping any physical, finite form as a god. This includes your jeezer, who walked the earth as a man, which is a physical finite form. That is the message of Deuteronomy 4:9-19.
Shalom
What if Kavi, G-d has a body (I still don’t think so), but let say He has. What on earth it proves that Jesus was god? Nothing. G-d would had had a form since the beginning of time and would not have shown it to us (except Moses maybe). Then bang, a few centuries years later a man comes and claims to be god. Israel rejects him. Then another man claims to be god. Israel rejects him again. Then Jesus came, and again Israel rejects him. That does proves nothing. G-d says to worship no forms as Yehuda, CR and Jim said several times (Deut 4). Why are you still so stubborn to see that. Clear commands in the scripture forbidding to do what you do. You have vague instances of G-d appearing to have a body. (no links whatsoever with Jesus anyway). (No clear commands, nothing!). What are you trying to prove with that? That G-d could decide to have a trip in a human body. Well fine, he could decide one day to come in a human body, yes he is G-d and can do whatever he wants. (and let the rest of the universe becomes chaos because He would go in a human body and G-d could not be everywhere any more because HE is one not three) But he would not tell us, because he would not want for us to commits the sin of idolatry and worshipping a body. He can also decides to forgive us without Jesus sacrifice as He can do whatever he wants (and he said He would). One is SCRIPTURAL, the other is speculation.
OK, let’s see what the NT says on the subject:
“God is spirit” (John 4:24)
“See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39)
So, since G-d is a spirit, and, according to Jebus himself, spirits do not have a body, that would mean that neither Jebus is god nor did the real G-d before Jebus have a physical body (vs a mere metaphorical one).
And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. (paniym)
Let’s be honest Kavi, did Moses speak with G-d face to face, or is it an expression? A few verses later, on the same chapter it say: “And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. (paniym)”. That does not fit your theory! If you want to be hyper literal, you can find a lot of websites disproving the bible using those exact two verses!
Furthermore if we take things literally, there are an other verse that say paniym in this chaper.
“For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth. (paniym)”
Here you go, the earth has a literal face! Try to prove me wrong! So let’s be serious about what the Bible say. I am sure that all christian would say that Moses spoke face to face with a person if the other verse would not be there. It would be another proof that Jesus is god.
This is a problem of context and idiom. The Tanach was not written for an audience 2,000 to 3,000 years in the future. The text was written and interpreted within a world completely different than our own. This changes everything. But many people try to understand it from the perspective of Western society in the twenty-first century, and furthermore, don’t even recognize idiom usage.
For example, we are all familiar with the social greeting, “Hey, what’s up?”. Imagine greeting someone 1,000 years from now this way? They will look at you with a puzzled expression and then look skyward to see what you’re talking about.
Similarly, biblical expressions such as “face to face”, “underneath His feet”, “a strong hand and an outstretched arm”, are but few of many biblical idioms that were never meant literally. Most of this kind of expression is even obvious to the uninitiated — as long as they don’t have a pre-set agenda in mind. And it’s worse if you’re a strictly linear, literal thinker. Like an engineer. Or a bookkeeper.
Once you try to prove (to yourself or others) that the biblical text supports a pre-conceived notion, you have lost the battle — you will not be able to correctly interpret Tanach. Especially when the context in your head (namely, Jesus) is different than the context of the biblical authors.
This is the problem that ALL believing Christians face, whether they realize it or not. The writers of the Tanach did not have Jesus in mind. They wrote within the context that there was only one invisible, indivisible, incomprehensible Lord of Hosts. This is at the fundamental core of the context.
With that solidly under foot, they wrote in a style that was understood at the time, with all of it’s innuendo and poetic expression. Sometimes they took liberties in literary style and expression that they would never have done had they conceived that one day readers would misinterpret their text in ways that supported idolatry.
Christian believers are coerced into interpreting the ancient texts the way Kavi does because their New Testament tells them to. It spoon-feeds the reader. Except for Paul’s convoluted logic and the symbolism in Revelation, the rest of the NT leaves nothing to the imagination, nothing to figure out or interpret. Readers are told this means this and that means that. So when they take the corruptions they have already incorporated from the NT and approach Tanach with the same mindset, it just doesn’t work. And it never will.
How is it going? (Comment ça va?) What Wave ox? (¿Qué onda buey?)
Funny how languages work!
Huh? How’s what going??
nice to speak to you face to face Jim :)
Remi, I feel like your comment really describes the struggle that Kavi is having. I have come to realize that christians like Kavi all end up doing the same things when they are cornered against the wall.
My favorite approach to showing the falsehood of christianity is showing christians how Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement, since atonement can be achieved without blood, especially in the context of the exiles. However, as you can see, I have posted this argument twice in this blog article, and Kavi hasn’t even attempted to refute my argument…Instead, he focuses on one topic and one topic alone…He only wants to discuss whether or not G-d “can have a body.”
This is a christian desperation tactic, as the Jewish counter arguments to the christian assertions concerning the supposed messiahship of jesus are much too great for the christian to handle. The christian eventually realizes that every “proof text” that they try to use to “prove” jesus’s supposed messiahship doesn’t work against Jewish arguments. The christian can never find a way to reconcile the fact that jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies of the Tanach and that the NT distorts the context of the Tanach in order to falsely crown jesus as the Messiah of the Jewish people. Every “proof” that the christian uses to demonstrate jesus’s supposed messiahship, the Jew has a counter explanation as to why said prophesy has nothing to do with jesus, whether it be Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 53, Psalms 110, Psalms 22, Micah 5:2, etc.
So once the christian realizes that their arguments are weak and futile against the Jewish arguments, the christian tries to skip the middle man and argue that the Messiah must be a god, who they illogically attribute to being jesus, despite the fact that they have no way of determining such. That’s when they start pulling out “the great jesus angel hunt” arguments such as Genesis 18, Genesis 32, Joshua 5, etc. Of course, the jeezer never even claimed to be these angels, but the christian would still have us believe that these angels are actually “god in the flesh” and that the jeezer happens to be every single unnamed angel in the Tanach…
And yes, this is based off of absolutely nothing…
Then you have the other arguments that accompany this, such as the “unified plurality” Dr. Brown narishkeit that every jeezer believer apologist will try to argue for with Genesis 1:26-27 and Kavi’s favorite, Daniel 7. But none of these passages mention the jeezer. But Kavi will insist that because the jeezer mentioned Daniel 7 and attributed it to himself, this is reason enough for us to believe that this is about the jeezer…Never mind the fact that the jeezer didn’t fulfill this prophesy by any stretch of the imagination…The jeezer said its about him, so he gets exclusive rights to it apparently… :-/
Kavi would also have us believe that Daniel 7 describes the worship of the Messiah in Daniel 7:27, no matter how many times we show him that the aramaic word there is not exclusive to the worship of a god. In this context, it means to serve, and this is also supported by the fact that it refers to a plurality of people receiving the kingdom that will be served by all other nations. But we can all bet ourselves that Kavi still denies the facts on this and still baselessly attributes this verse to not only the worship of the messiah, but more specially, of his jeezer…
Despite the fact that Daniel 7:27 speaks nothing of the worship of the jeezer, Kavi kept going on and on about this. Kavi knew that he couldn’t refute the argument we gave concerning Deuteronomy 4:9-19, and how G-d explicitly told Israel not to worship Him in any form, including the form of a man, and that we are to teach this to our children and to our children’s children. Kavi didn’t want to deal with this directly, so instead he focused on esoteric passages such as Daniel 7 and Zechariah 14 and tried to make a strawman argument to avoid the core of the issue.
Eventually, after Kavi ran out of smoke and mirror tactics to try and distract attention from the issue at hand, Kavi finally attempted to address Deuteronomy 4:9-19 in a straightforward manner. Kavi made the same foolish excuses I’ve heard from other christians, such as “G-d didn’t say He doesn’t have a form” and “it only applies to man made forms” and “mah jeezer is not a created form” and other foolish arguments that don’t prove anything about jesus’s supposed deity, as Remi pointed out.
But the reason why christians like Kavi do this is simply because they are first and foremost concerned with their jeezer being their god, rather than their messiah. They don’t care what the Messianic prophesies of the Tanach say. That’s not important to them. Their entire schema of what “god” is doesn’t fit the context of the Tanach. It doesn’t fit with what the Torah teaches, most notably in Deuteronomy 4:9-19. But regardless, the christian will continue to press on and misinterpret Deuteronomy 4:9-19, whether it be intentional or not, and try to make an exception for their jeezer.
For in Kavi’s mind and the minds of many other christians, if they can “prove” their jeezer to be a “god in the flesh,” then surely they won’t have to deal with those pesky Messianic prophesies that the jeezer failed to fulfill from the Tanach!
The only problem is that they have no means of proving this…Kavi knows this deep down in his heart, so he has resorted to abusing the context of the Tanach in order to justify the worship of a nameless “form.” This “form” is obviously what he attributes to being his jeezer, despite the fact that he has no way of demonstrating this other than baselessly asserting such…
So at the end of the day, all Kavi can do is sit here in disappointment and recognize that the Tanach does not support the deity or the Messiahship of jesus…
It’s only a matter of time until he recognizes this…Then the healing can begin!
It’s only a matter of time until he recognizes this…Then the healing can begin!
Or he can deny and stop listening to us, put his fingers in his ears and receive a good pat on the shoulder by his messianic priest, sorry rabbi. And listen to everything they say over and over again (isa 53, 9:6, Melkizedek) to “prove” Jeezer, sorry Jebus is god.
Friends!
Like Almah/Bethulah, somehow I do not recall the issue with Daniel 7 being quite as settled as some have imagined :)
The “Son of Man” man cannot be Yisrael– otherwise it would be idolatry. Why?
[a] Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego would neither ‘worship’ Or ‘serve’ the gold image of Nebuchadnezzar [Daniel 3:28];
[b] The “Son of Man” is given a kingdom of ALL nations who will serve Him [“All nations” includes Yisrael – Daniel 7:13-14]
[c] Only the Most High is served and obeyed by all kingdoms and dominions under the ‘whole heavens’ [ under the “whole heavens” would, again, include Yisrael – Daniel 7:27];
So, worshipping or serving anyone but Elohim is idolatry in the eyes of Nebuchadnezzar, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, AND THE ANGEL.
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Sources:
Daniel 3:28 – Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside the king’s command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.
Daniel 7:27 – And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High;
His kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
Daniel 7:13-14
I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a Son of Man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
And to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
Note:
This word used for ‘serve’ [ יִפְלְח֑וּן ] only occurs in this form in the Book of Daniel– so, there are no alternative definitions elsewhere in the Tanakh.
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Alright Kavi, as I suspected, you are sticking to the Daniel 7 argument and are ignoring the fact that Deuteronomy 4:9-19 refutes your arguments. Unfortunately for you, I have dealt with this before and was expecting this.
Kavi, are you familiar with Dr. Michael Brown? He has a PhD. in Near Eastern Semitic languages. He also happens to be world renown for his “apologetics” concerning christianity and “witnessing” to Jews…
Now, there was a debate that Dr. Brown had with Rabbi Immanuel Schochet ZT”L. Dr. Brown happens to deal with this very issue concerning the Aramaic word יִפְלְח֑וּן
I will quote Dr. Michael Brown concerning his understanding of this word and it’s Hebrew equivalents:
“Were told that following jesus, recognizing him as the son of god is idolatry. I would suggest that you look at various Hebrew roots, take a concordance, look up “עבד/avad” which means to serve or worship. Look up “Heshtachava” which means to bow down before or prostrate. Look up the aramaic verb, pelach, which means to serve or worship, and you will see that ALL OF THESE are spoken of G-d and the earthly or messianic king…In Psalm 72 and Psalm 18 for example and Daniel chapter 7. We are told to worship and serve G-d but it also says that the Israelites will worship or serve or bow down before the messianic king. There’s nothing idolatrous about that.”
You can listen for yourself in the debate here. Start listening at 52 minutes and 25 seconds into the video.
So, Kavi, Dr. Michael Brown, a person who holds a doctorate in near eastern semitic languages says that the Hebrew words “avad” and “Heshtavchava” are equivalent to the word aramaic word “pelach” (which corresponds to the Aramiac word יִפְלְחוּן in Daniel 7) and that these three words all exclusively refer to the worship of Hashem…Right?
Good…
Except he’s wrong…
These three words don’t all exclusively refer to the worship of Hashem. The Hebrew word “avad” is not always used for worshipping G-d. Lets look at the context of Genesis 15:13-14
Genesis 15:13 And He said to Abram, “You shall surely know that your seed will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and they will enslave them and oppress them, for four hundred years.
Genesis 15:14 And also the nation that they will SERVE (יַעֲבֹדוּ/yavodu) will I judge, and afterwards they will go forth with great possessions.
The Hebrew word here for “serve” is “יַעֲבֹדוּ/yavodu” which is a form of the Hebrew word “עבד/avad.” In this context, it does not refer to the worship of G-d, but rather, there serving of a nation to another nation…
So Dr. Brown is wrong about that the word “עבד/avad” referring exclusively to the worship of G-d…
And how about this one?
Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two kingdoms will separate from your innards, and one kingdom will become mightier than the other kingdom, and the elder will SERVE ( יַעֲבֹד/ya’avod) the younger.
The Hebrew word here for “serve” is “( יַעֲבֹד/ya’avod) which is a form of the Hebrew word “עבד/avad.” In this context, it does not refer to the worship of G-d, but rather, there serving of a nation to another nation…
But according to Dr. Brown’s position, Esau must be “god in the flesh”…
I guess the jeezer has some competition! ;-)
How about the Hebrew word “Heshtachava”? Is Dr. Brown correct in asserting that this Hebrew word can only refer to the worship of G-d?
Let’s see…
Exodus 18:7 So Moses went out toward Jethro, **PROSTRATED HIMSELF** (וישתחו/v’yishtachu) and kissed him, and they greeted one another, and they entered the tent
Once again, if we take Dr. Brown’s position, Moses must have been acknowledging his father in law, Jethro, as his “god,” since Dr. Brown insists that any form of the word “Heshtavchava” must refer to the worship of Hashem…
Clearly, he is in error…
And for one more example…
Lets look at Genesis 27:29 and see what you think is going on there. I’ll give you the context. Jacob is being blessed by his father Isaac after he tricked his father into thinking he was Esau…
Genesis 27:29 Nations shall serve you and kingdoms shall **BOW DOWN TO YOU;** (וישתחו) you shall be a master over your brothers, and your mother’s sons shall **BOW DOWN TO YOU.** (וישתחו) Those who curse you shall be cursed, and those who bless you shall be blessed.”
See that Hebrew word *וישתחו*? It appears that it means to “BOW DOWN TO.” Clearly Isaac was not telling Jacob that he was to be worshipped as a god by anyone!
So Dr. Brown is wrong once again…
However, it is important to note that Dr. Brown is correct that these three words CAN be used to refer to the serving of Hashem…However, they are not used exclusively in such a way, as clearly demonstrated above…
So what do you have to say, Kavi? Dr. Michael Brown is quite clear that he understands the Hebrew equivalent of the Aramaic word “יִפְלְחוּן” to correspond to the Hebrew words “avad” and “Heshtachava.” This man is a scholar in the realm of semitic languages. Clearly he knows the language and the roots…
However, he made an error in his understanding of the context of the use of the words in the Tanach…
So lets go back to your ending statement on your last post, Kavi:
“This word used for ‘serve’ [ יִפְלְח֑וּן ] only occurs in this form in the Book of Daniel– so, there are no alternative definitions elsewhere in the Tanakh.”
This is unfortunate for your position, Kavi, but according to Dr. Michael Brown, there are alternative Hebrew words that are equivalent to the Aramaic word יִפְלְח֑וּן and they are “avad” and “Heshtachava.”As clearly shown above, these words are used outside of the context of worship of G-d.
And thus, Kavi, you have no argument anymore. Your semantic understanding of the Aramaic word יִפְלְח֑וּן to only mean “worship” has been refuted, ironically by Dr. Brown himself inadvertently…
So what do you say, Kavi? Are you willing to throw in the towel? Or are you going to dare challenge the great and mighty Dr. Michael Brown?!
This should be good…
Admittedly, a most interesting link– but not relevant since Dr. Brown is mistaken.
Again, this particular word [ יִפְלְח֑וּן ] only occurs in this form in the Book of Daniel– and it is used for a very narrow purpose.
So, perhaps it would be better to pose a question–
Should Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego have ‘served’ Nebuchadnezzar’s golden idol? If they didn’t believe it was wrong, why not go ahead and do so?
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Kavi,
While you’re waiting for Yehuda to answer you, why don’t you respond to my question:
If God had His eternal plan of salvation for “the Jew first and for the Greek”, please explain why Moshe made it clear to the Children of Israel that they (and therefore we) were not to worship any god that they had not personally witnessed saving them from Egypt and bringing them to Sinai and to the promised land? Because those generations knew nothing of Yeshua.
Did Hashem forget to let us know? Or did He purposefully deceive us?
Your explanation?
Kavi, Dr. Brown is mistaken about the exclusivity of the three words (avad, Heshtchava , and palace) referring exclusively to the worship of G-d. However, Dr. Brown is correct concerning the Hebrew equivalents of the word Aramaic word “pelach” (the root form of יִפְלְח֑וּן) to the Hebrew words avad and Hestchava. Dr. Brown said to look in a concordance for yourself. They mean the same thing…
So there’s no dodging the bullet here, Kavi. You have a choice to make. You can either accept the fact that the Hebrew word יִפְלְח֑וּן is not exclusive to the worship of Hashem or you can wallow in ignorance and continue to justify your idolatrous worship of your jeezer. It’s your choice.
Shalom
Kavi, you have to acknowledge that there at least a possibility that the word יִפְלְח֑וּן could be use as “serve” and not “worship”. If there is at least a possibility, and some Hebrew scholar think so, than you cannot use it as “proof” that the son of man must be worshipped. The reason why Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego would not pay reverence to a status is obvious (Psalm 115). But aren’t we supposed to serve our country. Pay homage to the Queen (I’m Canadian :) ) and serve the people in authority. When Israel will have dominion and everybody is under his authority, the nations will serve him. There’s nothing mystical about that….
And Kavi, it would be silly to worship a man because of one word taken out of context from a prophecy that HAS NOT HAPPENED YET, IF and only IF you take it literally, and ignoring that it was a VISION, and ignoring ALL plain, clearly written warning against the worship ANY man. I mean, you really put your trust in only one word from a language that you don’t speak.
Furthermore, only the NIV translates it as worship (in purpose to fit their end goal for you to believe that Jesus is the son of man) out of all the other English Translations. The Spanish Reina Valera translates it as serve, the French Louis Segond and La bible du semeour translate it as serve and la nova Diodati translates it as serve (and they all Christians translations). Now, you may believe one guy (AKA Dr Brown) but seriously, don’t expect anybody else to believe that it exclusively Worship.
“Furthermore, only the NIV translates it as worship (in purpose to fit their end goal for you to believe that Jesus is the son of man) out of all the other English Translations.”
Yep, that’s correct. Including the KJV, NKJV, ASV, ESV, RSV and NRSV.
There is, however, there is one other “translation” besides the NIV that make this “error” — although you can see by the way they inserted their comments that they were really stretching to insinuate that the word means “worship” — and that’s the so-called “Orthodox Jewish Bible”, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Orthodox branch of Judaism and is a complete messianic fraud, probably designed to pull the wool over the eyes of uninformed Jews. (No doubt this is one of Kavi’s go-to bibles.)
I was looking to buy a Jewish bible and that “orthodox” bible fooled me for about 2 minutes. After they explained that Ahalma meant virgin, I realize it was just another pathetic attempt to lure Jews.
Shalom!
The question was raised– Did the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as the elders ‘know’ Elohim?
Why would Elohim ‘TERRORIZE’ Yisrael from the cloud at Mt. Horeb through thunder, lighting, smoke, and a Voice and yet shortly afterwards ‘PEACEABLY’, visibly reveal Himself to Moses and the elders as they ate and drank before Him?
Should not the questions have immediately arisen– “Why is happening? How can these things be?”
The riddle is readily answered when one understands that Elohim exists as a Tri-unity. Yes, Elohim must indeed exist in complex “unified plurality” [Echad].
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But, how does the ‘infinite’ Elohim explain who He is to ‘limited’ mankind– the ones created in His own image?
Elohim begins at the beginning– from Genesis and the ‘Echad’ of man and woman. When the two are joined, they become one– ‘Echad’.
And, how does Elohim explain His ‘Echad’ in comparison?
“Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad”
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָד
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An “answer” has been offered to the question, “Did the generation of Israelites standing to cross the Jordan and the previous generation which came out of Egypt know Jesus”?
From the vague and presumptive answer given, I think it should now be clear to all the degree to which a believer is willing to base their faith on nothing but assumption and the reading of ideas into the text that don’t exist.
First of all, Kavi purposefully twists the question when he restates it:
“The question was raised– Did the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as the elders ‘know’ Elohim?”
No, that was not the question. The question, plainly stated, was did the Israelites who were standing at the Jordan and the previous generation that came out of Egypt know Jesus?” The question wasn’t about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, nor was it asked about the Elders.
The commandment to not go after any gods “you” have not known and who “you and your fathers” have not known, was directed to ALL of the Israelites gathered at the Jordan.
When God (often) wanted to convey His commandments to the people, He ALWAYS addressed ALL the people. For example, when Revelation occurred at Sinai, the Ten Commandments were revealed to — and heard by — ALL of the people. When God wanted to convey important information to His people, He commanded Moshe to “Speak to the Children of Israel” … To ALL the people. This was God’s M.O.
That 70 elders went up the mountain and ate and drank in God’s presence does not answer the question. That is not how God conveys His commandments, and ALL the people did not experience this.
Finally, Kavi seems to think that God first purposefully tried to “terrorize” the people, and then was nice to the elders, where he hosted them with a banquet. Kind of like the good-cop/bad-cop thing. For Kavi, this is a “riddle”. For Kavi, if the answer to the perplexing thing isn’t Jesus, then it must otherwise indicates God has multiple personality disorder. For how could God, as one entity, behave in such different ways?
Therefore, when God is described as the God of justice AND mercy, this “riddle” can only be explained by the different “persons” of God: Father and Son — right? Do you see how twisted this line of thinking is?
No. The “answer” given is disqualified. It’s no answer at all. There is NOTHING in the Torah that shows that ALL the people knew and experienced Jesus in the wilderness. Therefore he is a false god, and worship of him is idolatry.
Kavi, G-d’s explicit commands to Israel concerning how we are to worship Him override any eisegetical assumptions you make about G-d supposedly “having a form” or “existing in a unified plurality.”
The question you need to be asking is WOULD G-d take on the form of a man…That answer is no. How do I know this? G-d explicitly tells us so! Here are the facts:
1. G-d explicitly prohibits the worship of ANY FORM. This is not exclusive to “man made forms,” as the worship of the moon the sun and the stars are considered idolatry, despite the fact that these are not “man made forms.” It does not matter if you want to whine about your jeezer being an ‘uncreated form.’ (Which you have no way of proving…All you can do is make a baseless assertion that your jeezer is an ‘uncreated form’…) A form is a form is a form and your jeezer is disqualified from being Hashem based off of the fact that your jeezer was a form. Deuteronomy 4:9-19 wasn’t a “one time deal.” It was meant for Israel to teach to future generations, as it explicitly states. G-d is explicit that He prohibits the worship of ANY FORM, and for you to insist that G-d “took on the form of the jeezer” would make G-d out to be a liar. Deuteronomy 4:9-19 is essentially a promise to Israel that G-d will never reveal Himself to us in any form. If your jeezer is an exception to this promise, then G-d lied…We know G-d does not lie, (Numbers 23:19) so your jeezer cannot be “Hashem in the flesh.”
2. The Tanach NEVER instructs anyone to worship jesus in any fashion.
The question you should be asking me is “WOULD G-d take on the form of a man?” Whether or not G-d “can” do such and such is an irrelevant question…
To which an appropriate response is to ask this question:
WOULD G-d take on the form of a golden calf?
We know that G-d WOULD NEVER manifest Himself in the form of a golden calf us. By the same token, He made it clear that He will not appear in the form of a man to us. Deut 4:9-19 was not a “one time deal.” It was a commandment for all generations! It was also not limited to “man made forms.” It extends to “any form,” including the form of a man.
G-d’s explicit commands to Israel concerning how we are to worship Him override any eisegetical assumptions you make about G-d supposedly “having a form” or “existing in a unified plurality.”
Concerning Moses, He is the only prophet who could possibly tells us if G-d “has” a form. Aaron, Nadav and Abihu, an the 70 elders did not see the “temunah” (image) of the Lord as the word temunah is absent from Exodus 24:9-11. Moses is the only person who has the ability to perceive the “temunah/form” of Hashem (whatever that means, only Moses knows.) For everyone else, Deuteronomy 4:9-19 is a promise that G-d will NEVER reveal Himself to us in ANY FORM.
Kavi, the fact that your one track mind insists that the only “solution” to the “riddle” is that “it must be a trinity,” just shows how absurd your position is. Even if G-d existed in a “unified plurality,” (He doesn’t!) you have no means of proving that this is limited to “one god in three persons.” Why not “one god in five persons?” Why not “one god in 9000 persons?” Even if we were to interpret Genesis 1:26 in the idolatrous manner that you insist, you still have no case for a trinity as nothing indicates that there are “one in three persons” in that verse. Moreover, your jeezer is not mentioned as being one of these “persons.”
Deuteronomy 4:9-19 will forever be a thorn in your idolatrous side, Kavi…
And yes, for the record in the Tanach, G-d never commands us to worship your jeezer in any fashion.
You take the jeezer…I’ll take Hashem!
The point is, Kavi, that the commandment is crystal clear. You need an equally crystal-clear statement in the Torah that Jesus, or God’s son, is to be worshiped in order to counter it. And there is no such thing. Essentially, your very basis (rationale) is that a human being’s assumptions, presumptions and analytical thinking is sufficient to overturn a plain, direct and clear commandment in the Torah. Sorry. Doesn’t work that way.
If you want to argue that “your fathers” references the patriarchs, it still doesn’t matter, because the command was still directed to “you”: those who were standing in front of Moshe at that moment. The scripture makes it clear that everything Moshe says is directed to EACH individual and that “gods whom YOU have not known” refers to EACH AND EVERY individual:
“Ye are standing this day all of you before the LORD your God: your heads, your tribes, your elders, and your officers, even all the men of Israel, your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in the midst of thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water; that thou shouldest enter into the covenant of the LORD thy God—and into His oath—which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day” (Deut. 29:9-11 JPS)
Jews are not to go after any gods that those Israelites — each and every individual — did not know. This is the very definition of idolatry, and there is no wiggling out of it. This commandment, and the ones Yehuda has repeatedly and painstakingly spelled out for you, is the final word on the subject. None of the other stuff matters.
Straining gnats and swallowing the Jeezer camel, Kavi — you and all Jesus worshipers.
Friends,
Every time the Shema is recited, we affirm that Elohim exists in “Echad”, in “unified plurality.”
Again, Elohim is “Echad” — and He Himself tried to explain by making a comparison to the relationship between a husband and wife– this interpretation of the Scripture is plain and peshat.
L-rd Yeshua cannot be compared to an idol because the Mashiachim NEVER worship his ‘form’– we never worship that temporary ‘clothing’ of skin and bones.
The Mashiachim worship the Eternal One who came to earth, walked upon this earth as the Prophet likened to Moses, and who returned to heaven WITHOUT that physical body of flesh.
[*] Moses was blessed to hear the Voice from Mt. Horeb, and to go up into the fiery mountain, and to see the back of the Ancient of Days, AND to see L-rd Yeshua along with the elders.
[**] Proverbs 30:4 — The Ancient of Days and His Son, Yeshua:
“Who ascended to heaven and descended?
Who gathered wind in his fists?
Who wrapped the waters in a garment?
Who established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name and what is the name of His Son, if you know?”
[**] Exodus 24:9-11 — The appearance of the glorified L-rd Yeshua in heaven:
“Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and 70 of Israel’s elders, and
they saw the God of Israel.
Beneath His feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire stone, as clear as the sky itself. G-d did not harm the Israelite nobles;
they saw Him, and they ate and drank.”
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But beyond the peshat teaching of the creation and the Shema, Elohim tried to teach and tried to direct Yisrael to do MANY THINGS– However,
Ω Did they see?
Ω Did they want to see?
Ω Did they do?
Ω Did they want to do?
Ω Did they learn?
Ω Did they want to learn?
Ω Did they listen?
Ω Did they want to listen?
Tragically, No– For if Yisrael had done what was right, and obeyed the Way of Faith like their fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, there have been no Diaspora.
Ω As Moses said to those ready to cross the Jordan–
“For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, you have been rebellious against the L-RD while I am still alive with you today; how much more, then, after my death?” [Deuteronomy 31:27]
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Turning back the clock to the first century when the Temple stood, the sacrifices and the festivals were an important part of everyday life in Yerushalayim, the Pharisees and Sadducees were in control of the people’s faith, and the Law was paramount.
And after 4,000 years of recorded history, the people and sages were expecting the Messiah.
Why then in 70 AD was the binding that held the nation together destroyed by the Romans and the people were dispersed to the four corners of the earth?
Ω Was this generation worse than the one who rejected G-d from first entering the promised land and died in the wilderness?
Ω Were they worse than the those who worshipped idols in the land during the time of the Judges?
Ω Were they deserving destruction like those subjected to Nebuchadnezzar’s conquest?
For 2,000 years Yisrael had been rejecting the Ancient of Days’ Way of Faith shown to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob [Genesis 15:6, Habakkuk 2:4]
Yet despite all this rejection, the Ancient of Days faithfully loved His people so much that He decided to send the Son of Man from heaven to earth– Just maybe this Prophet ‘like unto Moses’ would be treated differently?
It was not to be– Heartbroken, L-rd Yeshua humbly rode into Yerushalayim and HE WEPT OVER THE CITY and its coming destruction because the people “did not know the time of your visitation.”
It was this ultimate rejection of Yeshua HaMashiach which led to the destruction of Yerushalayim and the nation in 70 AD.
As Isaiah prophecies to us even today,
“If the L-RD of hosts had not left us a few survivors, we should have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” [Isaiah 1:9]
and
“All day long I have spread out My hands to a rebellious people, who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,” [Isaiah 65:2]
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Sources:
[**] Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the L-RD, and He accounted it to him as righteousness.
[**] Psalm 110:1-2
The Lord says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
[**] Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, as for the proud one, his soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.”
[**] Luke 19:41-44
As He approached and saw the city, He wept over it,
saying, “If you knew this day what would bring peace — but now it is hidden from your eyes.
For the days will come on you when your enemies will build an embankment against you, surround you, and hem you in on every side. They will crush you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave one stone on another in you, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”
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See, guys? Zoom! Right over his head.
And what did I tell you? When pushed into a corner, Kavi predictably shut down the right side of the cerebral cortex and auto-fired with both barrels, spitting out a barrage of just about everything he’s got. Most of it repetition, and all of it predictable. And it still all amounts to a big hill of nothin’.
As I said more than a month ago, Kavi is not here to discuss or learn anything. He’s here to (1) pontificate and (2) to sharpen his messianic tools to be able to evangelize more Jews. Kavi’s Lord is the man Jesus, and there ain’t nothin’ you can do about it. Save your breath for a Jew.
Dare I even respond to Kavi’s comments?… I think I have to, because some of his statements are outrageously stupid.
“It was this ultimate rejection of Yeshua HaMashiach which led to the destruction of Yerushalayim and the nation in 70 AD.
No it wasn’t, Einstein. If you studied high school level history, you would know that this was the time leading into the height of the Roman Empire, the “Pax Romana”, when there was little opposition to rule and everyone lived relatively peaceably. There were a few bumps of course, like Nero, but there was peace. The peace, however was gained through subjugation and control.
Rome built the peace by subduing and securing all peoples and nations within the empire. The last remaining pockets of rebellion were put down by Vespasian shortly after he took the throne in 69 CE, a year after the madman Nero committed suicide (and through questionable means, it seems).
Vespasian was successful in his efforts in quashing rebellions in both Gaul and Judea in 70 CE, and he didn’t rightly care who rebelled or why. Rome did not tolerate any national uprisings. All of them were put down.
There was no way Jerusalem could withstand Roman legions. Militant extremist Jews, the Zealots, for several decades had fomented rebellion and encouraged Jews to pick up arms, but it was sheer folly. No city could withstand the Roman Empire. If they were going to rebel, the end was inevitable. In fact, it’s amazing Rome tolerated the problems as long as it did.
The sad part of it all was that Rome had actually granted Jews exceptions to the requirement that all people were to worship the emperor. This exception was extended not only to Judea, but to Jews throughout the empire. Even Pilate withdrew a parade of Roman soldiers on horseback displaying flags of the emperor as a god, because the whole region became agitated. And before him, Caligula rescinded an order that a golden statue of himself be placed in the Temple due to resistance. Jewish religious independence was granted.
The Jerusalem Jewish population could have survived Roman occupation over the long run and retained a decent degree of religious autonomy if they had been cooperative with Rome and paid taxes just like everyone else.
So the answer to your idiotic, myopic statement is that the fall of Jerusalem had absolutely nothing to do with your little Yeshua. (But if you insist on a spiritual reason, then it was because too many Jews were worshiping him and introducing idolatry into the land.)
The truth is that the Jews in Jerusalem were a rebellious pain in Rome’s ass, and the empire didn’t tolerate problems from anyone, anywhere — not rebels like Yeshua, and not national uprisings. The Romans dispatched Yeshua for insurrection, and did the same to Jerusalem some 40 years later.
Reality seems like an unexpected thing when you’re living in a dream world, Kavi. Maybe you should have a strong cup of Kava and wake up.
I have just a hard a time believing God is three in one as I do believing many stories in the Tora.
“God is three in one”; “God came down on Sinai”. To me they are equally hard to swallow.
What I am saying is that once one gets beyond KAVI, how will one get beyond one’s belief in the NON-historicity of the Tora? (Remember how important the historicity of Sinai is to the Kuzaristas. The Kuzari’s/Judah Halevi’s main argument was based on the historicity of Sinai-not philosophy or theology)
If anything. it’s much more of a challenge.
Its been over 2000 years and your jeezer still hasn’t “come back,” Kavi…
Thats because your jeezer isnt coming back.
Read Zechariah 8:19, Kavi. Please tell me what it means to you.
Shalom
So kavi, also answer me this:
If your jeezer “came back” in his flesh and blood form, would you worship him as your creator?
Yes or no?
Shalom
Abraham’s faith had nothing to do with the jeezer. Abraham didn’t believe that thr jeezer “died for his sins” or that jeezer blood atoned for him. Abraham’s faith had nothing to do with faith in the jeezer. Thus, the jeezer is not needed for us to become righteous. Abraham didn’t need the jeezer…so why would we?
We dont! The jeezer was a false prophet and a false messiah and a false god….
And G-d first born son’s name is Israel, as Exodus 4:22 explicitly states. KAVI is delusional, as he somehow thinks every time the word “son” is used in the Tanach that it refers to his jeezer…but not even once in the Tanach is the word “son” associated with his jeezer.
So yes, Kavi is delusional…
When one is spouting ridiculous nonsense over and over, it tends to dissuade people from that person’s religion. I am guessing that’s exactly the result Kavi’s comments have been having on the hundreds of this blog’s visitors who have read his responses.
Kavi, I’m confused why you come to the conclusion that the Melchizedek priesthood relates exclusively to jesus/yeshua…I am not convinced that it refers to jesus/yeshua at all…But I have no problem with it having a Messianic connotation to it as well.
You will find that Abraham, King David, and even the Messiah are called as being fulfillments of this Psalm. One of the most striking commonalities between King David and Abraham is that they both “crushed kings” with the help of Hashem. This directly correlates with Psalms 110:5, which explicitly states this:
Psalms 110:5. The Lord, on your right hand, *has crushed kings* on the day of His wrath.
Now kavi, during jesus’s/yeshua’s lifetime, did jesus “crush kings”? Was he successful in defeating his enemies? Were his enemies “made a footstool at his feet”? (Psalms 110:1) Clearly not! Your jesus/yeshua was killed and failed to fulfill the Messianic prophesies outlined in the Tanach. As it stands, jesus has fulfilled none of Psalms 110 in any tangible sense. You can argue that he will fulfill it in his supposed “second coming,” but to claim that jesus has fulfilled any of this Psalm would be completely baseless as it stands…
Another oddity about your understanding about this “Melchizedek priesthood” is that you believe that jesus’s/yeshua’s bloodshed “atoned for the sins of the world.” Where in the Tanach does it state that the Melchizedek priesthood achieves atonement via the blood sacrifice? The only priesthood that was given this divine instruction that I know of was the Levitical priesthood…If you could find a passage in the Tanach which states that the “Melchizedek priesthood” achieves atonement via “blood sacrifice,” then maybe your position would make a little more sense. But as it stands, you appear to be baselessly asserting that this Melchizedek priesthood has “superior atoning power” in comparison to the Levitical priesthood, when there is nothing in the Tanach that indicates that the Melchizedek priesthood deals with blood atonement at all! I hope you will consider these concerns.
Shalom
But of course, kavi will ignore this post because he knows he has no answers. Kavi knows that his jeezer did not fulfil Psalms 110 in the slightest. Watch Kavi ignore this post and attempt to change the topic again…
Unfortunately, many others hold his views too. I hope some will see themselves in the mirror Kavi is holding up, and that it might slowly dawn on them that their views are not based on what Jewish scripture actually says.
You can spiritualize everything… Jesus crushed satan and all his enemies under his feet. (kings) But nobody can prove of disprove that. Jesus is priest, Jesus crushed satan, Jesus is king over all the earth, Jesus made sacrifice, Jesus rose from the dead, Jesus will come back on the clouds of heaven. Those are all prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. The only problem, you cannot prove anything (or disprove for the matter of fact) because it is all spiritual. You can also use as proof that Jesus is a rock, a river, a branch, a shoot, the son of man, the son of god, first born (oups, that one you can disprove), the prophet like Moses, the angel of the lord, and put thousands of title to him. Great job PAUL for twisting everything from the Tanakh!
Basically, Christianity is all about spiritualizing and allegorizing biblical texts to adopt them to its new god “Jesus” and its “New Israel” that is the Church. That’s how it was founded and that’s how it is to this day – rotten to its core.
Zechariah 8:19,
I always wonder why MJ keep Yom Kippur fast. If all sins have been dealt with at the cross, then it should be a joyous time, not a fast, a celebration instead. I guess it is just another way to copy Judaism, without really asking questions about the meaning and reason of things.
Zechariah 8:19 actually doesn’t speak of Yom Kippur…it speaks of 4 fasts that all concern the destruction of the Holy Temple, including TishaB’Av, which was observed yesterday.
Probably because Yom Kippur is the most solemn spiritual holiday that binds Jews together. Passover is a national holiday too, but centered on the family, and is not as much a spiritual experience. Perhaps they would feel guilty if they didn’t participate on this day (never discount the power of Jewish guilt!), but surely they would feel that if they didn’t, they would be severing one of the last remaining ties they have to the Jewish community and to their families. It’s a sad thing for a Jew to be cut off from the community — which is exactly what happens when a Jew believes in Jesus. As foretold in Torah.
Oups… I did not check the context. :)
But yes, Remi, according to Zechariah 8:19, christian Jews should be celebrating the fast days such as TishaB’Av, as it describes the Messianic age when these four days of our mourning of the Temple’s destruction will be turned into festive days of joy!
But how many christian/messyantic Jews do you think even acknowledged TishaB’Av this weekend? You’d be hard pressed to find a christian who even knows what TishaB’Av is…
And christians like Kavi think they have it right and the Jews have it wrong?!
Think again, Kavi…
Jeremiah 16:19. O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, “Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!
That is you Kavi. You have inherited lies…
Zechariah 8:23. So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
Maybe you can be one of those gentiles, Kavi…If only you would listen to the Jewish man telling you the truth of Hashem and the falsehood of your jeezer…
Shalom
Leonard, are you Jewish? What’s your background (family and personal experience)?
Christianity requires recognizing a man as G-d and praying through an intermediary. As such, it is idol worship and is wrong. There is no room for idol worship in Judaism. http://www.kiruvnow.com
I’ve been a W.A.S.P. (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) all my life before being called to Judaism – but even so, I have always stood firmly against the predatory evangelical missionaries who commit their reprehensible trespasses upon the children of Israel. Until my last breath is drawn, and in the service of Adonai-Elohim, I will stop at nothing to remove these poisons from our synagogues and circles of influence.
Thanks, Samuel. Yes, it’s amazing how missionaries to Jews feel justified using deceptive methods. I suppose they follow Paul’s own methods of being all things to all people or rejoicing if the gospel is proclaimed even by unworthy means.
You mean Rav Sha’ul’s methods?