Article: No Religious Coexistence – A refutation of Rabbi Shlomo Riskin’s “Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity”

Gene, have you read the Toldot Yeshu? In that text rabbis (whoever the authors actually were) claimed that THEY created Christianity to: “evangelize assimilated Jews into that religion and remove them forever from the Jewish people.” Off course this is a historically inaccurate notion and ridiculous, but it didn’t stop these rabbis from writing the toldot Yeshu and claiming that removing those Jews from Israel was their greatest aim.

If you look at Jewish history and the fact that Judaism has created its own Jesus like replicas, can you really blame the Christians for thinking that Maimonides is just making excuses saying “well….uh….G-D’s will can’t be prevented?” Christians read that and they see

1. Maimonides admitting that knowledge of G-d reached gentiles through Christianity and Islam.

2. That Maimonides can’t admit that fact without somehow legitimizing Jesus.

Its an apologetic on Maionides’ part to explain away the Church.

https://roshpinaproject.com/2010/01/13/karaite-jew-messianic-judais-created-by-rabbinic-judaism/

whatever explanations various rabbis may give about how the leper scholar of sanhedrin 98b really isn’t a messiah figure, or how this or that teaching is only allegorical, (such as a Shaliach that can speak as G-d in first person (cf. Genesis 31:13,) only a fool could say that (whatever the intentions of these allegories might be) these teachings haven’t produced identical Christian like theologies and ideas. Its a historical fact that Jesus of Nazareth is only one of many transcendent sons of G-d that Judaism has given birth to over centuries. In light of that, I find it to be very unnerving when rabbis tell Christians how foolish they are, or how without a base they are. If you have to have five commentaries stacked on top of each other to explain “what it really means,” then you are not speaking clearly.

Jewish Chrisrianity didnt disappear from history until the 4th century Aaron. Also, the toldot yeshu says that the sages gave Edom language.

What do you make of that list of Jesus replics?

Again, read up on that list Gene. Everyone on that list was declared superman by someone, and some were even worshipped Gene, that was my entire point. Even if JC didnt exist, if the Christians didn’t exist, if the gospels didnt exist, Judaism would still have all the ingredients needed to make a new Jesus. Let that sink in.

Gene said: “I don’t believe it to contain actual history – it’s a medieval parody.”

That’s what historians would want to tell you, just the same way they’d like you to believe Phoenician isn’t Hebrew and Phoenicians weren’t Israelites. They’d also like you to believe Moses… or several people… wrote the Torah based on other historic legends and systems of laws of neighboring civilizations in Mesopotamia.

Toldot Yeshu expounds on one of the Yeshus of the Gemara, and it’s likely the Christian Yeshu is based on two or more Yeshus, at least two that are mentioned in the Gemara. This Yeshu that Toldot Yeshu covers is the main Yeshu, and I believe it is entirely fact and not meant as satire, mockery, parody, or anything of the like. If it were, why would it speak the truth about what Hazal did – which was infiltrate the new Christian ranks? Obviously some would find this controversial (although I definitely don’t). Also, in the wake of Christian persecution, why would this book be written as a joke, invoking Christian wrath? It’s the true Jesus narrative, in my opinion.

Concerned Reader,

Hazal spared perhaps many ignoramus Jewish common folk from falling for the black magician mamzer Yeshu and his mix of Torah discourse with heretical claims of being the son of god and magic and doctrines he learned in Egypt.

Christianity became a religion entirely separated from Judaism, with no significant Jewish following, no influence or association with the Jewish faith at all. Hazal did a great job.

http://www.chabadofcentralflorida.com/mediaShow.asp?recID=436&m=0&cat1ID=51&cat2ID=0

What make you guys of this lecture?

“Look at what happened with the lunavitcher rebbe just 20 years after his passing? He is said to have a soul “more godly” than anyone else, some argue that he is a part of G-d, (Because G-d is Knower, Knowledge, and Known.) In other words, Judaism says “there is nothing devoid of G-d,” a given messianic candidate is therefore more aware of that than other people, so metaphorically speaking, he is more truly G-dliness wrapped in flesh than other things. Its like I said, we can look at later messianism, and we see the same stuff.”

What they did with the Lubavitcher Rebbe, or what he allowed to happen isn’t good (apparently people started calling him “melekh hamashiah” before he passed in the early ’90s, and he APPARENTLY didn’t reprove them) – but that’s a whole other story. Chabad has become Christianity 2.0, unfortunately.

HOWEVER, a Jew having a greater soul, which is real because EVERYONE is constantly moving up and down levels, and there are many aspects of the soul that people can either gain or lose, is a LOT different than saying someone is God Himself in the flesh. No human being is God in the flesh!

“Israel is called son of G-d in the Torah. The sages say, G-d, Israel, and the Torah are all one. They say Jacob did not die. Maimonides says (concerning Hashem) that knower, knowledge, and known are one in him, as no place is devoid of G-d. He says Moses’ prophecy was an “overflow from G-d.” It seems to me that if you speak like that, its only a matter of time until you get a Jesus.”

First of all, Rambam (Maimonides) got into Greek philosophy. That was a mistake. Many Rabbanim never accepted many of his opinions on philosophy. When it comes to his halakhic code, that’s a whole different issue because writing a halakhic code simply means extracting the final halakha from the discussions of the Gemara and writing them out in plain. I happen to follow the Rambam’s Mishne Torah, but I have nothing to do with More Nevukhim (which wasn’t ever supposed to be read by anyone besides the intended talmidim of his).

Whether what Rambam said in what you quoted is true or false, an accurate quote or not, is irrelevant right now. What is relevant, and the reason I explained what I did in the previous paragraph, is this: it’s simple, HaShem is One and we cannot understand His essence or perceive Him because the human mind isn’t able to, and that is by design. The whole point of believing something is when it isn’t known or understood. If you know something, there’s no need to believe it because you know it. The reason why we cannot know HaShem in the literal, direct, tangible sense, is because we have to have faith or not have faith – free will – because without free choice, we would be like the angels which are like animals or robots, they do based on what they’re programmed to do.

That’s why we can’t understand who exactly God is, it being inexplicable. He is infinite, above time, space, and matter, yet His glory fills the whole earth and all the vast unverse*s*. That’s why we recite the Shema twice daily, which is an affirmation to this: the belief in God’s Oneness. Without it, any Torah you do, and anything you do at all, is pointless in the end, and you’ll have no life beyond this world.

Not “most” Rabbis, not at all! Greek philosophy may have been popular “knowledge” of the western word at one time, but a Rabbi learning philosophy is an oxymoron.

No, I don’t see your point, because only unlearned people or people who are so fanatic they toss away the basics of Torah, who will idolize and messianize their Rebbes.

I am a Breslover. We have the knowledge of several Tzadikim who embodied the soul of “Moses-Messiah”, which is spoken of in the Zohar. This over-soul constantly comes to reveal Torah to Israel.

Moses was it, Rashbi, the author of the Zohar next embodied it. The Ari z”l embodied it. The Ba`al Shem Tov embodied it, and R’ Nahman of Breslov embodied it.

All other great Sages and righteous men are branches from these main Tzadikim, just as all the prophets were second to Moses, none of them experienced prophecy on Moses’ level. They all saw through “an unclear glass”, that’s why they say “ko amar HaShem” (HaShem said like this), “like this” specifically, because it wasn’t crystal clear as it was for Moses.

Not only do we believe this about these Tzadikim, but it is necessary to believe in them, and submit to their Torah revelations, primarily to put their revelations into practical action whenever necessary. Believing in R’ Nahman today, the Tzadik of our generation, is just as important as believing in Moses in his day. Only those who believed in HaShem and in His Tzadik of that generation were saved, as it says in “Song of the Sea”, “they (the people of Israel) believed in HaShem and in Moses, His servant”. It’s biblical.

It has nothing to do with believing any of these Tzadikim are gods, man-gods, infallible, or anything like that. In fact, Rebbe Nahman said in response to the idea that if a Tzadik makes a mistake, some wouldn’t consider him a Tzadik. So he said, “When a Tzadik makes a mistake, the Tzadik remains a Tzadik, and the mistake remains a mistake”.

These Tzadikim were Messiahs, but not the Messiah of the redemption. The Messiah of the redemption will be the next installment in this line of Tzadikim who are in the aspect of Moses, only this time he will be The Davidic Messiah.

Just because Christianity wants to hijack some of these concepts and make them 100% idolatrous and pagan doesn’t mean the original concepts are invalid. That would be like saying if you oven gets dirty, you have to throw it out. Nonsense. Your argument is like saying not to have an oven in the first place, because if some people are stupid and don’t clean it, it will get dirty, i.e. they’ll make their Rabbi into a God or Messiah. That’s nonsense because it’s necessary to have an oven in the first place, and to keep it clean and usable. Anything you have can become tainted, destroyed, etc, if it’s not being handled right. The key is learning Torah, having a foundation in Tanakh and Halakha first, before anything else.

“So, you don’t see how a Tzaddik who is viewed as moshiach/shaliach of his generation can be easily divinized?”

No. Not unless you forgot to say Shema` for the past few years.

“You say only the ignorant would make that mistake, but if your concepts need a theological dictionary or Judaism degree to properly process, I’m just saying, it can be dangerous, no offense meant.”

“My” concepts do need a Judaism degree, because you have to be learned in Tanakh and halakha before you can get anything else. That’s basic. It’s like learning basic math before Algebra, and you’re somehow saying that shouldn’t be. Of course it is, and any idiot who wants to read words outside of their context, which is halakha, is mistaken. R’ Nahman said to never take any of his novel Torah insights outside of halakha, because that which is holy will work within the realm of halakha, since halakha is the defining of what’s right and wrong

There are 6 aspects: pure.tahor – impure/tame’, valid/kasher – invalid/pasul, permissible/mutar – prohibited/asur, interestingly the Mishna has 6 Orders – these all correspond to the 6 weekdays, the 6,000 years of creation, wherein you toil and labor; the 7th day, the Sabbath, or the 1,000 years of the Messiah’s reign, is the time where there is no going back-and-forth between these 6 categories, rather, you’ve settled/fully repented (שבת, shavta), which are the same letters as Shabbat (שבת), there is only rest because you fought the battle with the evil inclination over these 6 categories, you going from one to the other, and finally, you’ve made it to complete repentance. I’ve summed up one of the teachings of R’ Nahman in this paragraph, albeit in a very limited and lacking way.

All Rabbis who are ordained must accept the Zohar as the authentic teachings of Rashbi. Many regular (non-Hasidic) Sepharadi Jews learn the Zohar and the writings of the Ari z”l. Even though Hasidim were named after followers of the Ba`al Shem Tov were called Hasidim, his grandson R’ Nahman of Breslov further revealed upon each of these layers. You have to adhere to his advice, because he knew what problems would come to be in the generations after his death, accurately predicting the wave of atheism and disbelief in the Sages which resulted in the Conservative and Reform movement, not to mention the “Enlightenment” where many Jews because gentiles altogether through intermarriage and giving up all faith in God and the Tzadikim.

He predicted the insane world of sexual perversion that we live in. He stressed the importance of tikun habrit, which the Zohar states is the whole foundation of the Torah (brit mila is indicative of this). If you’re wondering more, which I hope you are, then you’ll have to go to one of my two blogs, a link there is on the blog that my name currently links to

So no, I think this only proves what the Torah says, that in order to be saved you need to follow God and the Tzadik whom He sends for that generation, and it takes calling out to God from the depths and annulling your ego. Most people don’t even begin. It’s difficult because it’s real. For, lehavdil a million times, Yeshu, it’s easy, and there are immediate miralces of the סטרא אחרא to accompany the new belief, letting the Prince of Esau into their hearts. Not only that, they don’t just falsely claim that Yeshu was the messiah and the tzadik for all generations, they say he’s a god. That’s nothing compared to the truth about the real Tzadikim, it truly has nothing in common.

It’s like saying we shouldn’t pray 5 times on Yom Kipur because Muslims pray 5 times… every day. We face our holy place and they face theirs. If we’re in a location where that is the same direction (like perhaps in Lebanon or Cyprus?) – could we pray in the same direction as them!? Of course we could! I don’t let Christianity or Islam detract from authentic Judaism.

As for angels taking the Name of HaShem, the messenger is as the sender. That’s why a guy can use a messenger to betroth a woman, it’s valid, he doesn’t need to be there for the proposal acceptance, if he designates a messenger. Likewise when angels come in God’s Name, they are acting in HaShem’s behalf. HaShem does things through messengers/angels. If the Infinite were to come into this world, there would be no more world. Solomon wondered how even the Shekhina of HaShem could inhabit a physical building, the Temple.

“You believe Jesus is the embodiment of Esau’s angel, whereas the true tzadik is Israel’s angel?”

No, not at all. Tzadikim aren’t angels, they’re humans. And Jews are above the angels and above the constellations, whereas the gentiles are subject to the stars (astrological changes) and the angels above them.

A Sage once said to an angel “ana bisra, wa-ana `adifna minakh” which in Aramaic means “I’m flesh, but I’m preferrable to/better than you”. Why? Because angels have no free will like humans do, they’re “programmed” to do certain things.

The persona that xtians worship is the “prince” of Edom, the Samekh-Mem himself.

I won’t discuss this kind of thing anymore, because much of this shouldn’t be discussed in a public forum.

The point is: Christians worship a man god. Jews don’t, unless they’re heretics, and then they’re considered “as [idolatrous] gentiles with every regard”, according to halakha. Case closed, it’s simple, no need for going back and forth with novel-sized comments.

Gene, many do assume those things, yes, because the assertions for divine intervention cannot be empirically verified. Also, polytheists are much more open to different approaches to the divine. The point I’m trying to make is that you should learn the reality before you try and draw parallels between worldviews that contradict each other on every level.

You mean that the Christians said “to the pagan, I will become pagan that I might win some”.

Exactly. If you consider the beliefs as Pagans actually believed and practiced, Christianity is nowhere similar to that. Christians that quote paganism are often dealing with Plato or Aristotle, or philosophical systems that have allegorized pagan myth. For example, hermeticism. In other words, Christian quotes on paganism don’t tell us much about the reality of the beliefs, but about Christian polemic against those beliefs.

Enoch and Elijah became literal angels as far as I understand, but I have no idea if that means they have no free will at all or not. I’m sure there those who know, but I don’t.

So an asham is for intentional sins (if sin sacrifice is for unintentional, then asham is for intentional?)? Your statement wasn’t clear.

I agree with all written and explained in the article. There is but one very important point I have issue with. You state God is void of emotion. My question to you then is, is anger not an emotion? To find favor in someone does that not require emotion? To tell someone that God is not pleased, does that not involve emotion? Please explain.