Christian, what are you going to say to G-d of Israel when your god Jesus doesn’t return?
Worshiper of Jesus, Christian/Messianic, what are you going to say when you stand before G-d after the false man-god Jesus whom you worship and to whom you pray doesn’t appear? What are you going to say to your Maker when you knew all along (and I am merely reminding you here now) that worshiping anyone or anything other than Him is a grave sin and betrayal? How will you justify your worship of a mortal creature to whom billions bow their knees? Will you deny that you knew that He has warned you that He was neither a man nor a son of man (Numbers 23:19), that He had no visible form and that He can’t be compared to anything He created? Will you try to defend yourself that you only followed your leaders or will you admit to G-d your sin of idolatry? Will you appeal to the polished literary character from the pages of your New Testament? Will you tell G-d that Jesus paid for your sins by his blood when He explicitly warned that He doesn’t approve of human sacrifices (Leviticus 18:21 and Deuteronomy 12:31) and that no man can punished for the sins of another (Ezekiel 18:20)? Will you point to the [Greek] Testament in your defense and claim it to be the “word of G-d”? Will you claim that you have put your faith in Jesus, Paul, apostles, the church scribes, church fathers, pastors and evangelists? Will you attempt to boldly walk into the Holy of Holies as the author of Hebrews exhorts you to do (Hebrews 10:19) and demand to be allowed in since you placed your trust in a “son of man”, despite the fact that G-d has told us in Numbers 23:19 not to do just that? What will come out of your mouth? Do you know?
The Bible already knows what you are going to say. Indeed, it gives us a glimpse of your very words and it tells us in the Jewish scriptures, the writings that you call “the Old Testament”, the words all of the nations will utter before the G-d of Israel in the end of days:
“To you (Hashem) shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: “Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit. Do people make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!” (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
Today, however, the choice is still yours. Today, you can still either choose to continue worshiping Jesus as you god, to proclaim him as your “lord and savior” or you can choose to discard your idolatry and turn to the living G-d of Israel and Him alone. Make no mistake – you DO have a choice whom you will serve – if a man Jesus whom Christianity has deified to seat him on G-d’s throne is your ba’al (Hebrew word for “lord”), serve him. But if the G-d of Israel is the L-rd, then you know what you need to do. If you choose idolatry over the Living G-d of Israel, do not think that there is safety in the great numbers among the nations that Christianity and other religions can boast. As G-d said:
“Before Him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by Him as worthless and less than nothing. To whom, then, will you compare G-d? What image will you compare him to?” (Isaiah 40:17-18)
Daily Minyan 
Jesus whom you worship and to whom you pray doesn’t appear? [Your Words]
* Correction Yeshua/Jesus is the mediator for our prayers, we ask in the merit of the rebbe and his righteousness that on his behalf HaShem answers our prayers.
* Also we praise G-d for His salvation aka Yeshua, for sending Him to this earth and showing us how Torah observance should be conducted…..
Christianity has distorted the text of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John but upon a close examination one would see that he Yeshua was a Torah observant Jew who never broke the Will of HaShem.
We (Messianic Judaism) are similar to Chabad.
“We (Messianic Judaism) are similar to Chabad.”
BG, what sort of MJ do you follow? Can you describe it to me? Certainly not the mainstream MJ that most Messianic Jews are part of (UMJC, MJAA, etc), that is one which officially considers Jesus as Second Person of G-d (within Trinity) and 100% “god” himself, not merely a human mediator! Exactly as in mainstream Christianity.
But your comparison of MJ to Chabad is also false. Chabad doesn’t believe that their Rebbe is a deity. They do not believe that their Rebbe will save them from their sins. They do not believe that their Rebbe will get them into heaven. They do not believe that their Rebbe is seated next to G-d. They do not believe that their Rebbe is a “son of G-d”. He himself never even claimed that he was a messiah, only some of his followers did so (and most of those are no longer part of Chabad proper).
The only similarity between Chabad and Jesus to be found is that both of them are failed messianic candidates. In that they are hardly unique. Many would-be-messiahs before them likewise failed, but the failure of Jesus is far worse as history shows, resulting in gross idolatry and unspeakable suffering of the Jewish people at the hands of his followers and as a result of the Christian teachings based on worship of him.
Gene, In my opinion Chanukah sums up the proverbial who’s on A.) HaShems side & B.) Who chooses to accept other gods as valid as the G-d of Israel [which is blasphemous & idolatrous at best].
The MJ I practice is one as follows; NOT caving to the hellenism and influence on Antiochus on this society which said to the middle east/north africa & the mediterranean basin to;
profane shabbat
profane the festivals and holy days
set up idols
eat unclean animals
not circumcise your sons
forget Torah
The Judaism I practice falls on the side of the Maccabees who revolted against the wave and influx of societies threats, pressures and the alike to appease some hellenism antiochus view/lifestyle.
I understand that the word of G-d made flesh, should be better understood as the Torah manifested into a human form, and that human form was/is Yeshua, because the Torah (Chumash) brings salvation to those who adhere to it. Yeshua was the living example of what that looks like. By having faith in the Torah (aka: Word of G-d) one will gain salvation (meaning will be able to enjoy the world to come), but our life to live is now, we don’t waste time waiting for heaven to come like those in christianity, we attempt to hasten Mashiach by doing mitzvot…. And that means being an advocate for Torah, sharing its practicality in our modern society.
When we daven we ask HaShem in the merit of Yeshua that our prayers be answered that we don’t ask in our own righteousness, but his (Yeshua’s) righteousness.
We are still called as followers of Torah to adhere to Shabbat, to pray, to encourage more and more jews to do Yiddishkeit, and to cause more gentiles (me being one myself) to slowly conform there lives to the ways of Judaism.
Christianity when one looks at has decided to follow the hellenism view or influence of Antiochus, Judaism is the Menorah that stayed lit for eight days when it looked like it should have only lasted for one day.
Judaism is the one true monotheistic faith. I practice a more Orthodox approach to MJ [It’s tough but B”H I get through, and I’m still trying to find others locally; I’m in Delaware, who want to embrace this type of Judaism at this level].
I’m not fully “in the know” of how UMJC IAAA JHGH ABC or any other alphabet soup organization practice Judaism, so I can’t comment. Its difference from a mission statement and then living that mission statement out…. Im not sure how regulated those organizations are to make sure all groups are adhering to a standard of Halacha.
Do you know?
Does my explanation help?
BG, do you pray to/through Jesus and do you sing worship praises directed to/through Jesus?
As far as Jesus himself being “Torah” – this is a pure fanciful invention of modern messianics based on nothing but word associations. It loosely based on the Greek “Logos” (which means, “word”, “speech”, “account”, “to reason”, among other meanings), a concept which was later ceased upon by the Greek church scribe who penned the gospel of John to apply the Logos idea to Jesus as the personified “Logos” (later translated as “word” in other languages) through which G-d supposedly created the World, even though G-d is described in Genesis as simply speaking to create everything. Even the logos or word doesn’t equate to “Torah”, not even in John, as Torah simply means the teaching from G-d. So, Jesus is not “Torah” even per New Testament. In fact, those who call Jesus “Torah” do so to supersede the actual Torah as given through Moses and passed down through the Jewish people, claiming that Jesus himself is the new “Torah” and that Jesus’ ideas (which seem to mostly to include Paul’s ideas!) override the Torah Jews practice.
This is not Judaism of the Bible but old Greek philosophy that made its way into the NT mixed with a good helping of modern “Hebrew Roots” gibberish.
“Judaism is the one true monotheistic faith. I practice a more Orthodox approach to MJ”
Yes, but Judaism rejects all forms of avodah zarah (foreign worship) and idolatry. By mixing Jesus into your worship and various Christians ideas based on him as mediator, as your lord and savior, you have thereby rejected Judaism and monotheistic faith.
When I called him Torah I wasn’t referring to it in a sense of suppression, I meant Torah as in Chumash (5 Books of Moses).
Gene I love Judaism the G-d of Israel gives me purpose, everything humanity needs is found in the first 5. With that said I do not see how my ideals are “christian” nothing against that religion but it doesn’t follow or shall I say promote Torah as practical in our life.
I read more Torah then I do the “Gospels”, it [Torah] is essential to our life; meaning through Torah we gain sanctity and draw closer to HaShem. Me and you are very similar
Blessed be His Name
BG, do you talk to Jesus in your prayers and do you lift him up in your worship? Is Jesus a person within a “triune godhood” for you or is he just a man? Did Jesus save you from your sins, is he your “lord and savior”, as he is called in Acts? Finally, do you love Jesus more than yourself and all other human beings, as he required of his followers?
I lift up the G-d of Israel during my prayers both spontaneous and liturgical [siddur] and in the Merit of Yeshua/Jesus I ask that my prayers are answered….
No trinity for me….
Yes Jesus (aka The living Torah of Moses came as Messiah be Yosef and will return as Messiah ben david) G-d is the one whom is our savior and He sent His Torah as a means of our salvation….
I love G-ds word more then myself, and fully stand by the Torah and the sages of Israel (Oral Torah, but the latter is fallible) The Torah of Moses is infallible.
I am not interrogating, but you have not answered directly but evasively. Why play with words? Jesus is not a “Torah” – he was a mere man like you and I. We already had our Torah from G-d and we had it long before JC was a twinkle in his parents eyes. JC arrival on the scene added nothing except increased idolatry in the world.
Do you accept Jesus’ demand (as reported in the NT) to love him specifically and personally – Jesus – above yourself and all your loved ones, yes or no?
I love Yeshua/Jesus. The mans life recorded in the gospels is of no comparison. Truly a prophet like Moses.
BG, that is not what I asked you.
Yes… Gene, sorry if I was appearing to evade the question
hi Gene, I think it was Paul that caused all the idolatry of Jesus worship… and the council of Nicea etc. etc.
Valerie… I think that you are correct. Paul’s letters to his converts are the earliest writings we have in the New Testament, written long before anonymous church scribes penned the gospel of Mark (and later its embellished copies, Matthew and Luke), and long before the Hellenistic antisemitic “John” was penned. Paul provided the foundation for adoration and exaltation of Jesus to near deity status (although I do not believe that he himself viewed Jesus as “the G-d”), he created the image of the demigod, which was later, after much struggle and bloodshed within Church ranks, incorporated into the Trinity as a full-fledged “Second Person” and as “God of the Very God”.
Gene, consider for a moment that all the information about this pure Jewish Jesus by your statement below, comes primarily from these very sources that you say are thoroughly gentile, Hellenist, anti Semite sources ie Mark, Mathew, Luke, John etc. SO ALL INFORMATION ABOUT THE JUDAISM OF JESUS BY YOUR OWN STATEMENTS ARE PAULINE IN ORIGIN, SO YOUR CONTENTION THAT PAUL CHANGED THE MOVEMENT OF JESUS IS SPURIOUS.
Paul’s letters to his converts are the EARLIEST. WRITINGS we have in the New Testament, written long before anonymous church scribes penned the gospel of Mark (and later its embellished copies, Matthew and Luke), and long before the Hellenistic antisemitic “John” was penned. JOHN WAS WRITTEN IN 90 CE according to the Jesus seminar. PAUL WROTE IN THE 50s-60s (30 short years after Jesus!) Mark was written in the 70s (again according to the Jesus seminar) HOW DO WE KNOW THESE ARE PERIOD WRITINGS? Scholars (like Bart Ehrman) have taken the Synoptics and retranslated the Greek into a period appropriate Aramaic and the synoptic texts make better sense! The Synoptics were not written by native Greek speakers, as they show evidence of near eastern idioms appropriate to Semitic lnguages. Paul and Luke write in much better Greek.
BTW How long after the Lubavitcher rebbe passed away did his students say that he wasn’t really dead, that he was alive and guiding the generation, and that he was coming back? NOT LONG AT ALL, some 22 years, even earlier if you read certain things MM had to say about the previous rebbe. Consider the following from
Genesis 17:22 22. And He finished speaking with him, and God went up from above Abraham. כב. וַיְכַל לְדַבֵּר אִתּוֹ וַיַּעַל אֱלֹהִים מֵעַל אַבְרָהָם:
from above Abraham: This is a euphemism used in reference to the Shechinah, and we learn that the righteous are the CHARIOT of the Omnipresent. — [from Gen. Rabbah 47:6, 82:6]
“these very sources that you say are thoroughly gentile, Hellenist, anti Semite sources ie Mark, Mathew, Luke, John etc.”
CR, clearly these later non-Jewish sources had to base their writings on something, and they based them on orally transmitted stories of the Jewish messianic sect that was formed around Jesus. These stories were heavily embellished by the Greek authors or editors (the addition of the virgin birth narrative is but one example) and “anti-Judaized” as they were put down on parchment and edited by church scribes.
“The Synoptics were not written by native Greek speakers, as they show evidence of near eastern idioms appropriate to Semitic lnguages. ”
Synoptics indeed show some evidence of “Aramaicism”, but Aramaic was lingua franca of the period, heavily influenced by Greek, and was not confined to Jews living in Palestine. The gospels were written in “street Greek”, or koine Greek. Mark, for example, also shows many other influences, as evidenced by some of its “Latinisms” or by having Jesus quote Isaiah from Septuagint, to cite some examples. It’s a hodge-podge, in other words.
“BTW How long after the Lubavitcher rebbe passed away did his students say that he wasn’t really dead”
Who cares? I don’t base my understanding of thousands of years of Judaism on some practices or beliefs of one modern hasidic sect.
“SO ALL INFORMATION ABOUT THE JUDAISM OF JESUS BY YOUR OWN STATEMENTS ARE PAULINE IN ORIGIN, SO YOUR CONTENTION THAT PAUL CHANGED THE MOVEMENT OF JESUS IS SPURIOUS.”
All the gospels show evidence of being thoroughly influenced by the Pauline wing of Christianity. If one looks carefully, one can even find fingerprints of Paul’s own disdainful attitude toward the “Jerusalem church” or his invention of the mystical Eucharist being written back into the gospels. In the gospels, Jesus’ own disciples, people who knew him best, are made to look like ordinary nincompoops. Their role is thoroughly marginalized – the Jewish disciples are made to look like blundering idiots who never get anything right and do not understand what Jesus was really trying to do. By the time we get to Acts it becomes clear that Paul is the master of the show. Little is said of the apostles there, other than employing them to approve of Paul’s actions. Indeed, the “Acts of the Apostles” should have been more aptly called “The Acts of Paul”.
The problem Gene, is in the dates of the sources, and in the fact that these scandalous episodes between Paul and James are still very visible in the NT text. If Pauline editors wanted to change Jesus, they did a bad job of it, as Jesus’ Judaism is visible and cant be ignored. The Septuagint vs Masoretic argument isn’t much anymore, as We have Hebrew variants in the DSS that reflect many of the Septuagint’s readings. As for Isaiah 7:14, even in Greek Parthenos does not necessarily mean virgin, so Ive never seen that as a huge argument. Personally, I think its very likely that the birth narratives “birth of the holy ghost,” etc. were allegories that became literal over time, especially since the church has early traditions about the Despsyni, their lineage, and variant readings of the genealogies of Jesus. There are many near contemporary Jewish birth narratives that reflect a miraculous character in births that is not dissimilar from the gospels. Aramaic was a widespread language, but Greek was far more common.
“The Septuagint vs Masoretic argument isn’t much anymore, as We have Hebrew variants in the DSS that reflect many of the Septuagint’s readings. ”
Wishful thinking! The Greek Testament quotes “Septuagint” specifically, not merely “reflects” some alternate Hebrew variants floating around (whatever their origin is). More importantly, the reason that I use “Septuagint” in quotes is because the legendary (perhaps even mythical) original translation by the Jewish sages had little in common with what came to be known as “Septuagint” of Christianity. The original Septuagint was supposed to be limited to the five books of Torah, and didn’t include the mangled Isaiah translation we see in the NT or any of the other books of the Hebrew Bible! Just Torah!
“As for Isaiah 7:14, even in Greek Parthenos does not necessarily mean virgin, so Ive never seen that as a huge argument.”
You have no argument (naturally), but that’s precisely how the Church built its myth of the “mother of god” – and that’s the whole point.
“There are many near contemporary Jewish birth narratives that reflect a miraculous character in births that is not dissimilar from the gospels.”
None of them produced a demigod, half man / half god. Is it not the whole point to Jesus’ paganized birth narrative and not G-d merely intervening to resolve fertility problems?
.מתפלל בשבילך
@marko was that for Gene? the “praying for you” comment?
Gene, you should do a blog about what would help the mainstream Messianic Jewish community in America become more “authentic”…. Explain how there short comings can be overcame.
“Gene, you should do a blog about what would help the mainstream Messianic Jewish community in America become more “authentic”…. Explain how there short comings can be overcame.”
BG, when I was still a “messianic”, I already wrote a post like that. In fact, I wrote many posts in regards to being more “authentic”.
I just didn’t know at the time how futile those efforts were – it’s like putting a fresh coat of paint on a sand castle. The only way Messianic Jews can become “authentic” is if they completely leave behind the “Messianic Jewish community” (and drop all associated beliefs and practices) and return wholeheartedly to the real Jewish community.
Are there any archives you can e-mail me or point me towards? I would seriously like to see your writings on the matter….. To see if the mainstream Messianic community corrected some of the shortcomings you and maybe others you quote mentioned.
BG, I’ll have to check what I still retained – I deleted and threw away a lot of stuff after my return to Judaism.
@BG. It is for Gene.
Marko…. are you praying for something specific to happen:)?
G-d’s goodness, Gene. G-d’s goodness. :)
“I deleted and threw away a lot of stuff after my return to Judaism.”
I’m surprised you didn’t keep more of it. Since you are interested in helping Jews out of Christianity, your own comments written during your time as a messianic would be invaluable to help people out, ie by showing your sincerity as a former Jesus believer etc. That’s actually the biggest problem I have with outreach and anti missionary approaches to discussion. There is so much commitment to the official reading and interpretations, that historical facts (like that Christianity actually emerged from Jusaism) get obscured because the sources for its ideas (Philo, diverse second Temple ideas, etc.) don’t mesh with the current orthodox perspective. I wish that both Judaism and Christianity could look outside and beyond the defined tradition box and tell people, that ideas might have changed in 2000 years.
CR, I am not committed to any “official reading” as much as to showing that worshiping a human being as god is idolatry, a betrayal of one’s Creator.