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The future of Israel, Messiah and the World (the Jewish version)

April 3, 2014

LEVITE MUSICIANSImagine this alternate prophetic scenario, which I believe accords far better with the Jewish prophets than the New Testament’s version of the future, where the glorious multinational Church and Jesus are reunited. This is is not a version of future events where Jews belatedly accept and worship the messiah they “murdered” two thousand years ago, and finally join the Church, feeling very sorry for not recognizing Jesus all along. The unfolding events look decidedly different than what the authors of the gospels, Paul and the author of Revelation would have their readers believe. This is my reading of the Jewish prophets. I took some liberties with filling in the blanks.

Five, ten, twenty, fifty (or more) years into the future…. The hatred of Jews anywhere they live and animosity toward their national home, Israel, is reaching a fever pitch. Their enemies are demonizing the people being brought home from their long exile, with the new antisemitic contagion spreading rapidly across the globe. Once again, Jews find themselves with very few friends they can turn to. At the same time, all is not lost – Israel is still a nation to be reckoned with, instilling fear into the hearts of her enemies. With dark clouds gathering and threats coming from every direction, Israel’s very future as a people is being threatened. If only they had a leader who could guide them through this perilous time.

The real Jewish messiah appears on the scene. He’s not Jesus, but a virtuous and devout Jewish man who is able to unite all Jews. While he knows full well the tradition of Davidic lineage of his family, he does not find it significant when it comes to himself, at least not at this time. After all, many Jews today are able to do the same. Coming from a deeply devout family which nevertheless identified with Jews of all walks of life and participated in the national life of Israel, he is both a scholar and experienced military leader. Humble and wise, he is respected by all sections of the Jewish society. He doesn’t call himself a messiah. In fact, just like his ancient predecessor, Moses, he doesn’t even know that he too one day will help lead Israel – only G-d does. Neither has he been anointed – this is still to come. Still, the nations of the world hate and oppose him and work against him, as they’ve done to every Jewish leader in Israel‘s history. Some already derogatorily speak of this Jewish leader as a false messiah, scorning and ridiculing the fact that he’s so respected by the Jewish people while Jesus has been rejected.

Indeed, he’s nothing what they expected to see in a messiah as Christianity long portrayed him – not the glorious all-powerful heavenly god-man coming back for his beloved Church. It does not take long for this leader of the Jewish nation to branded as the “antichrist”. Preachers preach fiery sermons in their churches against him and against the Jews who fell “under his spell just as Jesus, Paul and John predicted”. No Christian may believe in him or support him in any way, or they risk losing their salvation. Christian tourism to Israel dries up as do other forms of Christian support, with many Christian denominations joining the boycott of the Jewish nation. Jews are ridiculed for their “folly” and the New Testament is held up as having already predicted everything the Jews will do. Muslims, who along with Christians likewise believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that no one else fits the bill, also reject the leadership of the real Jewish Messiah and join with the Western world in their opposition to him and the nation of Israel.

The new Jewish leader, however, being a Jew with great faith in the G-d of Israel, is steadfast and resolute. His sole earthly concern is the welfare of his people, not the opinion of their detractors. This is the reality, not the otherworldly visions, and there’s much work to be done.

With Jews living around the world increasingly coming under attack, Israel redoubles her efforts to gather the last of the scattered Jews to their ancestral home, the Land of Israel. Many military and terrorist attacks against Israel break out, but the Jewish leader leads Israel in defeating their many enemies in adjacent hostile countries. However, with the spreading knowledge of Torah and Judaism, with renewed proliferation of Jewish understanding of G-d, many Gentiles from all over the worlds are streaming into Israel. They are either converts to Judaism or those who have rejected idolatry of their ancestors in order to worship the G-d of Israel and Him alone. They have come alongside the Jewish people and settled in the land as if they were natives. They are here to help, whatever the cost.

Determined but widely condemned by the world, the work in rebuilding the Third and final Temple commences. True prophets once again appear in Israel, devout, holy men gifted by G-d with a special insight. They are few in number, for now. Many Jews flock to them, seeking G-d and the prophets exhort them to learn the Torah of G-d to learn His will for the Jewish people. These prophets are not just teachers and predictors of the future – they are able to recognize the lineage of all Jews, including of priests, Levites and especially that of the Messiah himself. In this generation, many Jews have embraced G-d, Toran and their covenant, even those who have been wholly secular all their lives. The eyes of the nation are on G-d and Israel is being transformed. The yeshivas and synagogues are overflowing beyond capacity, and new ones springing up every month. The spirit of G-d is drawing His people closer to Himself.

In the rebuilt Temple, Israel gathers for the ceremony where their leader is anointed as Israel’s king. But their joy is short-lived – now is not the time to celebrate. The news is bleak. All nations gather against Israel for the ultimate conflagration, attacking Jerusalem and causing much damage and carnage. Their goal is to make the name of Israel remembered no more and for the people to cease being a nation. Israel is on retreat, but there’s no where to go. The people cry out to G-d. The war against Israel appears to be won and situation hopeless. However, G-d himself intervenes, and sends his fire on earth and destroys the armies of “G-g and Magog and all the cohorts.” The weakest in Israel chases away thousands. The nations of the world are humbled, they are in awe of what G-d has done for Israel, of His salvation. The idols of the nations which do not save (including Jesus) are destroyed, are put away for good and are remembered no more. All false prophets and idol worshipers will be ashamed – they will all realize that they inherited nothing but lies from their forefathers. The earth will be finally at peace. G-d will raise all the righteous dead and will judge the wicked with righteous judgement.

However, there will still much work to be done. All peoples of the earth will be required to come to Jerusalem to worship Hashem in his Temple and to learn of His ways. As the prophets proclaimed long ago, they will seek out Jews since they will know that G-d is with them. No longer will they seek out the children of Israel to induce them to worship the “gods” of the nations, gods that cannot save, but rather to be taught by Jews about the Holy One of Israel. The true Messiah of Israel will inaugurate the Kingdom of G-d on earth. G-d will rule the world and He will be proclaimed King of Kings. Israel’s human prince, the Messiah, will live righteously, rule justly and his sons too will reign as princes/kings over the Jewish people and the whole world forevermore.

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60 Comments leave one →
  1. January 26, 2015 12:37 pm

    Reblogged this on Daily Minyan and commented:

    As some of my Christian readers recently showed interest in knowing the Jewish understanding of Messiah and the Messianic Age, I decided to re-publish this post.

  2. ברוס permalink
    January 26, 2015 7:32 pm

    BARUCH HASHEM!!!!! YOU CAN REBLOG THIS EVERY 5 BLOG POSTS AS A REMINDER!! (My caps are for Excitement and JOY)

    United we stand and in his hand we fall (Proverbs 24:16)!!! :-)

  3. January 26, 2015 9:33 pm

    Thanks, Bruce:)

  4. April 11, 2015 1:07 pm

    Hi Gene. In the last line, you write “Israel’s human prince, the Messiah, will live righteously, rule justly and his sons too will reign as princes/kings over the Jewish people and the whole world forevermore.”

    What exactly do you mean? This Messiah will have sons, that eventually will become kings? Kings where? In each country? In Israel? Will these kings have also sons? Will this be a dynasty running from Israel, just as David & Solomon’s dynasty did?

  5. April 11, 2015 10:04 pm

    “What exactly do you mean? This Messiah will have sons, that eventually will become kings? Kings where? In each country? In Israel? Will these kings have also sons? Will this be a dynasty running from Israel, just as David & Solomon’s dynasty did?”

    Yes, that’s correct, Alfredo – the Jewish prince/king who will initiate the messianic age (i.e. the messiah) will have sons of his own (as is clear from Ezekiel 46:16-17, and is the traditional Jewish understanding as well). So yes, it will be a continuation of the Davidic dynasty which will once again rule over the nation of Israel. Other countries will have their own kings (or leaders) who will rule over their own respective domains, however they will be vassals who will answer to the Kingdom of Israel (as is clear from Isaiah 49:23) .

  6. April 11, 2015 10:32 pm

    This means that this Jewish prince/king will eventually die. Correct?

  7. April 11, 2015 10:41 pm

    “This means that this Jewish prince/king will eventually die. Correct?”

    He will likely live (and thus rule) for a very long time, but he will eventually die and will be replaced by his sons. The nature of things in the messianic kingdom is explained in Isaiah 65:20:

    Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

    I understand that this is difficult to understand for Christians, for whom the biblical prophetic “waters” have been hopelessly muddied by the “prophecies” in the Christian bible (the NT) and all the later Christian dogmas built on top of that.

  8. April 11, 2015 10:49 pm

    So according to your line of belief, you somehow agree with the Sadducees: You only live once, and then death. That’s it. That’s the end. In some future, distant or not, you might see it or not, Messiah will come to this earth, begin this dynasty, will eventually die, but this Kingdom will last forever… with kings being born, ruling, having sons, dying, forever and ever. Am I missing something?

  9. April 11, 2015 10:54 pm

    “Am I missing something?”

    Yes, you are (and btw, did you read the Isaiah 65:20 I quoted above?). Eventually, there will be an end to things as we know it and a whole new plane of existence called Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come. Although sometimes it is confused with the “messianic age”, it’s not it – rather, it’s an existence far beyond that in every regard.

  10. April 11, 2015 11:05 pm

    Yes I have read that quote from Isaiah (today and before) and I’m already aware that the World to Come (Olam Ha-Ba) is different from the “messianic age”. But I still don’t get your sequence of events. Do you believe in resurrection? If so, when will it occur according to your belief? If you don’t, then can you clarify that indeed your line of belief is according to what the Sadducees taught?

  11. April 11, 2015 11:16 pm

    Alfredo…. according to the Jewish understanding of the coming events, the resurrection of the righteous will take place at the end of (or after) the Messianic Age, during which time the World to Come will begin and a whole new plane of existence will commence. The Messianic Age will be just a MUCH better version of the current world, but it’s not the World To Come or the time of the resurrection (yet). (Don’t know why you keep bringing up “Sadducees”).

  12. April 11, 2015 11:30 pm

    I was bringing Sadducees because you never mention resurrection in your blog post, neither you put yourself into that story. So I was wondering if you believed in resurrection of the body or not… Now with this clarified, it is possible then that you might never meet Messiah in this world, since he might come in many years in the future. Correct?

  13. April 11, 2015 11:35 pm

    Btw, you mention that Messiah and his dynasty will reign in the world forever more, but then you mention that the World to Come is completely different, so, will this kingdom keep on going in the World to Come? And if so, who will be this dynasty’s king? The last one just before the World to Come begins? King David since he will be resurrected? King Messiah since he will also be resurrected? Who?

  14. April 11, 2015 11:36 pm

    Also, there are some other opinions, with some rabbis who say that the resurrection of the righteous may take place some 40 years into the messianic reign (that is not at the end of it or after) – so that the righteous dead experience life in the world to come. I am not sure what that particular opinion is based on.

  15. April 11, 2015 11:40 pm

    “Now with this clarified, it is possible then that you might never meet Messiah in this world, since he might come in many years in the future. Correct?”

    I suppose it’s possible. Although if the righteous (among whom I hope to be counted) will be resurrected years into the messianic age or some time at the end of it, the resurrected will either meet the messiah during the messianic age (this world) or at the end if it – which would probably mean that the (if by then) dead messiah will be resurrected too at that point. There is a lot of details that we just do not know how they will happen exactly (especially pertaining to the resurrection and Olam Haba).

  16. April 11, 2015 11:40 pm

    wait… “so that the righteous dead experience life in the world to come”? or in the messianic era? Weren’t they different?

  17. April 11, 2015 11:42 pm

    “wait… “so that the righteous dead experience life in the world to come”? or in the messianic era? Weren’t they different?”

    Some rabbis say that some righteous dead (especially those who are most righteous) may experience the taste of messianic era before others. Like I said, there’s a lot that we do not know how things will happen exactly – but there are clues in the Torah and the prophets.

  18. April 11, 2015 11:48 pm

    Oh… Ok then.

  19. KAVI permalink
    April 12, 2015 10:31 am

    Gene and Alredo,

    One part of me would really like to believe that our existence ends at death, yet I think that the justice of G-d would not be carried out upon the evil that mankind commits if it were so.

    ****Ecclesiastes 3:17
    “G-d will bring into judgment both the righteous and the wicked, for there will be a time for every activity, a time to judge every deed.”

    ****Ecclesiastes 12:14
    “For G-d will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”

    ****Job 19:25-27
    “But I know my living Redeemer, 
    and He will stand on the dust at last. 
    Even after my skin has been destroyed,
    yet I will see G-d in  my flesh.
    I will see Him myself;
    my eyes will look at Him, and not as a stranger.
    My heart longs  within me.“

    ****Psalm 23:6
    “Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life,
    and I will dwell in the house of HaShem forever.”

    ****Psalm 16:10-11
    “For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol;
    nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
    You will make known to me the path of life;
    In Your presence is fullness of joy;
    In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.”

    –Note: Although Psalm 16 partially refers to L-rd Yeshua HaMashiach, we see that David says that HaShem will not leave him in Sheol.

    Overall, HaShem leaves us with with the assurance that He will punish the perpetrators of the Holocaust along with all those throughout the ages who have hated him.

  20. April 12, 2015 10:44 am

    KAVI, nobody argued that there is no afterlife or the judgement of the dead – both will happen according to the Hebrew scriptures and both represent fundamental tenets of Judaism. The question from my blog’s point of view is what will happen to idol worshippers of Christendom – what is the fate of those who hoped that placing their faith in and giving their life’s service and their acts of worship to a dead man will grant them eternal life (while believing that not doing so would exclude Torah-obedient Jews from eternity with the G-d of Israel)?

  21. KAVI permalink
    April 12, 2015 4:24 pm

    Gene,
    I enjoyed your post and found it significantly thought provoking.

    In reading the ensuing conversations, it seemed there was some uncertainty regarding the fate of all mankind—which is to face a day of judgment, Yom haDin.

    The certainty of Death for most brings uncertainty. If one only “hopes” to be counted righteous before HaShem, the Consuming Fire– the grim reality is that we are all sinful and born into unrighteousness (yetzer hara):

    ****Psalm 51:5
    “Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.”

    ________________________

    Even with one single sin, Adam and Chava were found unrighteous before G-d and were cast out of Gan Eden (Genesis 3).

    Understanding the Holiness of HaShem, Rabban Yokhanan ben Zakkai weeps on his deathbed because he does not know whether the G-d will send him into Paradise or Hell (i.e., Gan Eden or Gehinom – Berakhot 28b).

    So, if Messianics are wrong in their beliefs, their condemnation will be no different from the “unrighteous” Yehudim and Goyim (which encompasses everyone).

    On the other hand, those who believe in L-rd Yeshua HaMashiach for their righteousness do present a reasoned case for an assured status of righteousness before HaShem— an assurance based on Emunah and the “sure mercies of David”:
    ****Genesis 15:6
    ––And Abram believed [Emunah] in HaShem, and He counted it to him as righteousness.
    ****Habakkuk 2:4
    ––“Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him;
    But the righteous will live by his faith [Emunah].”
    ****Psalm 32:1-2
    ––“Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
    whose sin is covered.
    Blessed is the man against whom HaShem counts no iniquity,
    and in whose spirit there is no deceit.”

    Shalom
    ________________________

  22. April 12, 2015 4:29 pm

    Kavi… That’s some twisted Pslam 51:5 translation – that’s not what the Hebrew says at all.

  23. April 12, 2015 4:33 pm

    Hi Gene. What is the correct translation of Psalm 51:5?

  24. April 12, 2015 4:37 pm

    “Behold, with iniquity I was formed, and with sin my mother conceived me.”

    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16272/jewish/Chapter-51.htm

  25. April 12, 2015 5:25 pm

    “What is the correct translation of Psalm 51:5?”

    Alfredo, the one you copied from the Chabad site is much more accurate. On the same site, Rashi explains it that David says that he was conceived in a sinful environment, that is by people who sinned. Not that David’s parents were some sort of wicked people – it’s just that all people sin. However, we also know that sins of a father do not make his son guilty of his father’s sin. “[T]he son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Ezekiel 18:20)

    What some Christians (those who hold to the Augustinian original sin notion – many do not) fail to realize is that the soul of a person comes into the body directly from G-d Himself. It’s sinless and perfect. The body of a person is also a majestic and praiseworthy creation of G-d (Psalm 139:14). That’s why to translate that verse “I was guilty when I was born” is not only wholly unjust, it also slights G-d’s handiwork.

  26. Concerned Reader permalink
    April 12, 2015 7:27 pm

    Notice it doesn’t say anywhere in Genesis “on the sixth day G-d says Oy Vey,” it always says he saw that it was GOOD. ;)

  27. April 12, 2015 9:14 pm

    In Genesis, G-d saw that it was GOOD. Correct. Is everything here good now? What happened?

  28. April 12, 2015 9:19 pm

    “Is everything here good now? What happened?”

    Violation of G-d’s law happened.

  29. April 12, 2015 9:23 pm

    Gene: You say “it’s just that all people sin” and it is written: Yechezkel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die.” and Yechezkel 18:20 “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

    With this in mind, at the end of the “Messianic Era”, will everyone have to die before the “World to Come” begins?

  30. April 12, 2015 9:24 pm

    “Violation of G-d’s law happened” Ok. What is the outcome of that?

  31. April 12, 2015 9:43 pm

    “With this in mind, at the end of the “Messianic Era”, will everyone have to die before the “World to Come” begins?”

    We’ll have to find out one day how things will pan out. If resurrection happens some time during the messianic age, it’s possible that the righteous living at that time will not die but G-d will simply transform them into eternally living beings, as happened with Enoch and Elijah.

    ““Violation of G-d’s law happened” Ok. What is the outcome of that?”

    Punishment for those who sinned, same as today for everyone who sins (unless they repent). What about the righteous among us, why must they suffer as well, and especially die? As is the case with children of alcoholic parents (for example), we who are not wanton sinners still unfortunately suffer the consequences of our ancestors’ choices, regardless of our own behavior. One day Hashem will permanently cure our condition.

  32. April 13, 2015 11:44 am

    “Violation of G-d’s law happened, Ok. What is the outcome of that?”

    Death entered the creation. Death came into the world.

    Yechezkel 18:4b “the soul that sins, it shall die”
    Yechezkel 18:20a “The soul that sins, it shall die”

    Just as there is the law of gravity in this earth, there is the law of death: Whoever sins, shall die. In other worlds, the wages of sin is death.

  33. April 13, 2015 11:59 am

    “Whoever sins, shall die. In other worlds, the wages of sin is death.”

    OK, Alfredo, Jesus died, but Enoch and Elijah did not. How does that figure into your formula?

  34. April 13, 2015 12:03 pm

    You already said it: “G-d simply transformed them into eternally living beings”

  35. April 13, 2015 12:05 pm

    Alfredo…. you seem to think that even the righteous die because of their sins, by quoting to me that ‘the soul that sins, it shall die”. But you are confusing a death and death as a punishment (especially the eternal death of a soul).

    Besides all that, take a look at this:

    The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. (Isaiah 57:1)

    So, we can draw the following conclusions:

    1. Some righteous don’t die if this is what G-d wants – they are simply taken away from this world to be spared from evil (Enoch and Elijah)
    2. Those righteous that do die, they don’t die because of any sin on their part. They die because most men die until the World to Come and because G-d wants them to be spared from evil.
    3. The wicked die not just physically but, far more importantly, spiritually – they will never live in Olam Ha-ba. Their souls will die.

  36. April 13, 2015 12:50 pm

    Gene: Your words on your reply at “April 12, 2015 5:25 pm” were “it’s just that all people sin”

    Please, explain to me your concept of “righteous”

  37. April 13, 2015 1:07 pm

    “Please, explain to me your concept of “righteous””

    Sure thing, Alfredo. A righteous person is a person who loves the G-d of Israel exclusively and worships no other “gods” and one who strives to live righteously (that is in obedience to G-d’s commandments – as applicable to him or her, a Jew or Gentile, man or a woman, etc.). Unlike with habitual sinners and unrepentant idol worshipers, occasional failures to observe commandments (a.k.a. sins) do not make a righteous person unrighteous, but merely require repentance and resolve to avoid committing the same sin in the future.

    As it says in Proverbs 24:16:

    For though the righteous fall seven times, they rise again, but the wicked stumble when calamity strikes.

  38. April 13, 2015 1:19 pm

    Then according to your explanation, “All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death” Correct?

  39. April 13, 2015 1:28 pm

    “Then according to your explanation, “All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death” Correct?”

    No, Alfredo, there’s a WAY OF LIFE, a lifestyle (that is living and sinning without repenting) that leads to death, not any particular or individual sins that sometimes a righteous person may commit and repent of.

  40. April 13, 2015 1:39 pm

    OK: There is sin that lead to death… all sin that is done without repenting… (aka a wicked person that lives such a lifestyle) and there is sin that does not lead to death because sometimes it happens but a righteous person repents of it, because that person lives in a way that is in obedience to G-d’s commandments, and if that person fails, that person can perform teshuvah. Correct?

  41. April 13, 2015 1:55 pm

    Overall you are correct, but you still keep putting things into your formula. Don’t speak of types of sins that “lead to death” – that’s the New Testament and not the Hebrew Bible. It’s the overall life of a person that we have to look at. Is the person righteous (lives for G-d and repents when he sins) or is he a sinner (doesn’t live for G-d and doesn’t repent when he sins)? So, let’s say a righteous person commits a most detestable of sins – idolatry. If he made a mistake, but then, after realizing this, he repents of his idolatry, he is still righteous. However, if he persists in the idolatry and becomes an idolater as a lifestyle, the Torah warns that he will die and will be cut off from his people (that is World to Come).

  42. April 13, 2015 2:12 pm

    Something has happened to me coming out of Catholic church, going through Protestant church and now beginning to understand the whole thing in an old point of view (new for me, but old in time), which is the Hebrew understanding of Torah. I begun to criticize EVERYTHING that was taught to me in those churches. But you know what? the problem is the interpretation that teachers in those churches have done in what the followers of Yeshua wrote. What you have written when you say “there’s a WAY OF LIFE, a lifestyle (that is living and sinning without repenting) that leads to death, not any particular or individual sins that sometimes a righteous person may commit and repent of” is actually what it is written in 1 John 5:16-18 (even if you don’t like it). I think that the writer is not meaning “types of sin” but “lifestyles” of those who sin. You might also “accuse me” (in the good sense) of trying to “read into those words” something that is not there, but don’t worry, cause I’m really getting used to that coming from Catholics and Protestants as well. As far as I’m concerned, this conversation with you has given me some good lights on things that are exactly what I’m looking for, because the more I understand “Jewish thought”, the more I understand what was written.

  43. April 13, 2015 2:20 pm

    “As far as I’m concerned, this conversation with you has given me some good lights on things that are exactly what I’m looking for, because the more I understand “Jewish thought”, the more I understand what was written.”

    That’s good to hear, Alfredo. I hope that the more you grasp the Jewish understanding of things, the more you learn about what the Hebrew scriptures really teach, you will be able to start recognizing the idolatry, corruption and foreign ideas that are embedded throughout the New Testament among the layers of ideas borrowed from Judaism.

  44. April 13, 2015 5:59 pm

    Oh.. I didn’t mean only the Hebrew scriptures, but also what is written in the so called “New Testament”. You see, with this “righteous” concept that you have explained, now passages such as Luke 1:5-6 “In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.” and Luke 2:25 ” Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.” make perfect sense.

  45. April 13, 2015 6:17 pm

    As I said, Alfredo, NT is a mixture of Jewish ideas (e.g. your Luke example of what righteousness is from a Jewish point of view – obedience to Torah) and helenistic idolatrous ones (made righteous by believing in a death of a demigod and apart from observing the commandments) .

  46. April 13, 2015 7:54 pm

    Maybe those idolatrous ideas that you talk about are misinterpretations… but not what the writers intended to transmit…

  47. April 13, 2015 8:12 pm

    We can speculate about the true intent of the NT authors from now to eternity and come up with all sorts of excuses for the false ideas they had put forth. It only delays repentance. We already have the Torah and the prophets by which we can measure any religion that comes along – we don’t need to know what the authors of Christianity’s “holy” texts meant or didn’t mean, just as we don’t need to know what the authors of the Quran really meant, or the writer of the Book of Mormon may have really meant, or any future religion that will come along, likewise claiming to be the fulfilment of the Biblical faith. And we know the fruits of these religions which were built on the doctrines found within the pages of their texts.

  48. April 13, 2015 8:23 pm

    Well, in that line of thinking, we also encounter that in Judaism there has to be an interpretation on what the Torah and all the Scriptures that conform the Tanakh really meant. That is why there are many opinions from Jewish Sages on the meaning of most passages. So speculation also occur in Judaism (You already mentioned that in your comment at April 11, 2015 11:36 pm)

  49. April 13, 2015 8:48 pm

    Alfredo, the disagreements about interpretations one finds in Judaism among sages and rabbis is about relatively minor, secondary issues (such as how to fulfill a particular commandant or when is messiah coming), while at the same time there is no disagreement about Judaism’s core beliefs. On the other hand, false religions such as Christianity and Islam (and others) reinterpreted the very core of the Jewish faith (including monotheism and Torah) .

  50. April 13, 2015 9:05 pm

    Are you saying that difference in interpretations between Ultraorthodox Jews and Reconstructionism Jews are minor? How about what “Jewish Renewal” thinks about homosexuality? (http://www.joi.org/qa/denom.shtml) Is that a minor issue?

    And how about Sadducees not believing in the resurrection of the dead against what Pharisees believed? That issue is not a relatively minor secondary issue either. Both groups were top in Jerusalem’s first century.

    BTW, I’m not attacking Judaism in any way. No way. Not at all. Not by any chance. I fully understand that the Jewish people are G-d’s chosen. I’m just a man from the Nations. I respect Judaism with all my heart. When Israel was being attacked last year, I made a phone call to a Jewish friend that I have, even though I’m not in a financial position to make those types of calls. It didn’t matter. I only wanted to let him know that he and his people have friends in this part of the world. (I live in El Salvador)

    I’m just pointing out that interpretation always exists, and we will finally understand everything when the days that Jeremiah (Chapter 31), Ezekiel (Chapter 36) and other parts of the Scripture occur. Then, speculation will be over. “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.”

  51. April 13, 2015 9:20 pm

    “Are you saying that difference in interpretations between Ultraorthodox Jews and Reconstructionism Jews are minor?”

    This sort of comparison is not relevant to this discussion. We are discussing Torah Judaism here, the Judaism of the sages and rabbis. I and all other Torah-observant Jews don’t consider the modern liberal movements (e.g. Reform, Reconstructionist or Humanistic) as Judaism. Why? The Reform movement, founded 200 years ago in Germany by Jews who rejected Shabbat, the kosher laws and met on Sundays, rejected the Torah as either divinely inspired or still in force, and the Reconstructionist movement (founded in 1940’s by one man) rejected a personal G-d. These are heretical, apostate movements that are outside of the historical Judaism since they have placed themselves outside of Torah and even G-d, rejecting G-d’s commandments and even his existence.

  52. April 13, 2015 9:24 pm

    “Then, speculation will be over. ”

    There’s no speculation when it comes to idolatry, Alfredo. You are confusing minor things with very major ones. Let’s cut to the chase – is man Jesus divine, a god to you and do you pray to him and worship him?

  53. April 13, 2015 9:45 pm

    Is resurrection of the dead a minor thing?

  54. April 13, 2015 10:05 pm

    Yes, when exactly resurrection takes place is a minor thing, while resurrection itself is one of the 13 most important tenets of Judaism. Again, you are again confusing major things (resurrection) with the minor (when exactly it takes place).

  55. April 13, 2015 10:11 pm

    I am not talking about “when” resurrection takes place. I’m talking about two main groups in 1st century Judaism (Sadducees and Pharisees) having a big difference in interpretation. What is your reading of that situation? Is that a minor disagreement? You just can’t dismiss the Sadducees as a form of Judaism like you have just done with the modern liberal movements (e.g. Reform, Reconstructionist or Humanistic), dismissing them as if they are not Jewish people at all. Can you?

  56. April 13, 2015 10:24 pm

    Alfredo.. why are we going back to the Sadducees? Your Jesus didn’t agree with their interpretation of Torah – he said that his disciples were to obey the Pharisees not any other group. Sadducees are gone, just like the Ba’al worshipers, who after all, were a majority in Israel during the days of Elijah! Pharisees were the most important, most faithful group of Jews at the time and their descendants (virtually 100% of Jews today, including even tiny group of Karaites who split from main Judaism in Babylonia) carried the torch of G-d and Torah for more than two thousand years and will continue to do so until the messianic kingdom starts, since nobody else, no other group, has preserved the Torah and the Jewish way of life – only they did.

  57. April 13, 2015 10:29 pm

    I’m going back to the Sadducees because eventually they will also be resurrected in the future even if they didn’t believed in resurrection! Do you believe that they will also be saved? Do you believe they are doomed?

  58. April 13, 2015 10:53 pm

    Sages and rabbis held and hold that those who rejected resurrection will not be rewarded with it.

  59. Francois Aerts permalink
    June 19, 2017 5:34 pm

    Shalom Alfredo, pleased to meet you. Daniel 12: 2 mentions: “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence”. The whole Tanach instructs us to put our hope only on the Lord, He is the Reviver of the death, and because Ezekiel 37 provides us with a vivid description of the Resurrection of the death, I fail to understand why the Sadducees rejected Resurrection, and thereby rejected a piece of the Tanach. Furthermore, the prophets Eliah and Elisha both resurrected death people by calling on the Name of the LORD, the beliefs of the Sadducees must therefore be prone to serious distortions. The Sadducees clearly failed to understand that the Lord is a Lord of the Living, not of the dead. I can therefore imagine that those who reject Resurrection will not be rewarded with it.

  60. June 20, 2017 5:13 pm

    Did the Sadducees believe in the prophets or just in the Torah in the first place?

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